The Binding of Isaac Repentance Upgrade *Spoilers*

[Armorchompy]

Yeah, ending 22 definitely makes it a lot less decisive. I'm not sure, I guess you can count me as neutral on that.

 

[deonment]

on type 8, I would say no to it for armor's reasons, and on the fate, no to it but I would say a possibly for the plot and even if it isn't him doing it purposely, then it would be limited

 

[BLS]

on type 8, I would say no to it for armor's reasons, and on the fate, no to it but I would say a possibly for the plot and even if it isn't him doing it purposely, then it would be limited

The type 8 i agree was not justified correctly, as we talked about how R key/Victory laps interact with the timer, item pools and eraser, arguments can be made still that because they are embodiments of his thoughts it should still fit those were it really fits i.e not fodder, evidence here being Mom and how she has multiple versions of herself or how its implied Satan is Isaac's portrayal of himself and his self loathing, this is implied/shown in ending 16, 20 and the final one 22, i won't argue for type 8 though.

Fate was moreso confusion in the OP what abillity it counts as, i think Plot manip fits more and makes sense since he creates the stories and worlds we end up seeing. Also i argued about Plot with Armor, i think from what we gather from ending 22 Isaac is fully able to make the stories in his head, it's certainly not accidental/unconscious when he is able to literally make/change those stories, literally just watch ending 22.

This is me taking Armor's stance on him dying in a box in account, which i disagree with personally, i won't go much on a tirade on canonicty since i'm tired of this particular subject but if you watch ending 22 it portrays previous endings as a part of his story, particularly his demonic self, his parents arguing and him dying in a box, all while writing this story with his dad

 

[Armorchompy]

When Edmund literally says that Ending 22 is a hallucination it's basically headcanon to go against that. And if it is a hallucination then nothing said in it is fully reliable.

 

[BLS]

When Edmund literally says that Ending 22 is a hallucination it's basically headcanon to go against that. And if it is a hallucination then nothing said in it is fully reliable.

Death of the author and this once again changes nothing since he made those events happen, him fighting the Beast and the story that was told there.

 

[Armorchompy]

Death of the author doesn't apply in this case, the story makes perfect sense and you're just the one refusing to accept it. And since it's a hallucination and TBOI is a very symbolic game, you really shouldn't take this shit at face value.

 

[BLS]

Death of the author doesn't apply in this case, the story makes perfect sense and you're just the one refusing to accept it. And since it's a hallucination and TBOI is a very symbolic game, you really shouldn't take this shit at face value.

I hate repeating myself but i took your stance into account, even if you believe it is an hallucination he had control and made stories in his head, stories he changed with his fictional father there. Also if it was so obvious you wouldn't need to pull an author statement and ending 22 wouldn't show his corpse in the chest being fictional

 

[Armorchompy]

Him being there with his father and changing the story is a hallucination itself, how isn't that obvious?

And sure, let's just destroy all the intrigue and artistic value of the story just because a guy on a battleboarding site isn't sure of something, it's almost like some stories don't want to just blatantly slap the answer in front of the player and have them search for it instead, and it's not like Isaac's story has always been very low-key, cryptic and symbolic. Look, the ending hints at this a lot, and Edmund himself dispelled all ambiguity, it's crystal clear by the standards of anyone who isn't purposefully trying to ignore it.

 

[Armorchompy]

This Edmund-blessed fan explanation should clear all doubts.

 

[BLS]

And sure, let's just destroy all the intrigue and artistic value of the story just because a guy on a battleboarding site isn't sure of something, it's almost like some stories don't want to just blatantly slap the answer in front of the player and have them search for it instead,

Like how previous endings are quite literal with Isaac dying? Like the one where he is a corpse, the one where he thinks himself as evil? I hope you are not implying Isaac is insanely subtle about this

it's not like Isaac's story has always been very low-key, cryptic and symbolic. Look, the ending hints at this a lot, and Edmund himself dispelled all ambiguity, it's crystal clear by the standards of anyone who isn't purposefully trying to ignore it.

Cryptic how when ending 22 depicts him making that story, showing previous endings etc. Also please stop bringing Ed into this argument and stop moving goalposts when the original argument was about Isaac and making stories, which is true and is everywhere throughout the game and its endings, wether or not he is dying or not does not make him making stories in his head not true

 

[Armorchompy]

I've already explained how isaac doesn't willingly make the stories, not going back on that. And I've provided plenty of evidence as to why Ending 22 is one final hallucination. If you want one more, the Bumbo game heavily hints at dad having committed suicide. And no I will not stop bringing the person who wrote the story into a discussion about the story, nor will I listen to any more sidetracking arguments.

 

[BLS]

There's Isaac coughing to hint at the fact that he's running out of air inside the chest, the "are you getting sleepy yet", the messed up stuff you see in TBOI which a happy child would likely not think of (and that his father would object to), plus all of Dogma/The Beast is Isaac overcoming his issues by defeating what "started" them allowing him to finally imagine himself ascending and getting a peaceful death, and the fact that Isaac's dad was clearly an irresponsible POS and wouldn't go back to take him from Mom.

Also like, who do you think wrote that ending, Edmund did, I think he knows what it means better than you or I do.

I've already explained how isaac doesn't willingly make the stories, not going back on that. And I've provided plenty of evidence as to why Ending 22 is one final hallucination. If you want one more, the Bumbo game heavily hints at dad having committed suicide. And no I will not stop bringing the person who wrote the story into a discussion about the story, nor will I listen to any more sidetracking arguments.

You quite literally just gave me your opinion on the matter and ending 22, dispels this with making Isaac's corpse, that being shown in Hush's ending, just part of his story. Ending 22 shows him making a story and changing it, even if you were to believe he "hallucinated" that, it's an insane reach to imply he had no control when he changed that story

 

[Armorchompy]

He didn't change it for real he had a hallucination of him changing it while in reality he has no control over it I have told you this twenty times already

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

I agree with Armor here

 

[BLS]

He didn't change it for real he had a hallucination of him changing it while in reality he has no control over it I have told you this twenty times already

Delirium's, his LITERAL DELUSION's, Ending is referenced as fictional in the final ending

 

[BLS]

Also you mean to imply he had hallucinations of himself making a story, but also having hallucinations of his corpse which conviently is like ending 20's i.e the future? Also if this "Hallucination inception" is to be believed, he somehow could tell a perfect story in this "non control" state that you led me to believe, which is even more ridiculous since he is able to perfectly list events, people and his pet Guppy in that story and tell a story in ending 22 after slaying the beast an ascending, where he quite literally gives himself a HAPPY ENDING

 

[Ionliosite]

Yeah, the OP is making the most sense here, so totally agreeing with him.

 

[InfiniteDay]

I agree with Armor completely.

 

[Livinmeme]

Agree with OP

 

[BLS]

the Bumbo game heavily hints at dad having committed suicide. And no I will not stop bringing the person who wrote the story into a discussion about the story, nor will I listen to any more sidetracking arguments.

Bumbo emphasizes that he is the co-creator of Isaac's world, which is supported by Repentance's ending 22 where he tells a bedtime story with Isaac, there is no such implication of his Dad commiting suicide, like where the hell did you get that from? Bumbo by the way supports everything i said originally, since it shows them having created all enemies and the events leading to him going through the crawlspace even the part where his mother gets her vision

 

[Armorchompy]

Also you mean to imply he had hallucinations of himself making a story, but also having hallucinations of his corpse which conviently is like ending 20's i.e the future? Also if this "Hallucination inception" is to be believed, he somehow could tell a perfect story in this "non control" state that you led me to believe, which is even more ridiculous since he is able to perfectly list events, people and his pet Guppy in that story and tell a story in ending 22 after slaying the beast an ascending, where he quite literally gives himself a HAPPY ENDING

Isaac hallucinating his own corpse is like, 80% of the game's enemies and 20% of the playable characters, that's not exactly surprising yeah. And no it's not a "perfect story" he's literally recalling basic shit, "see your life flash before you when you die" is a really ******* common cliche.

He doesn't give himself a happy ending, he finally believes himself to be free of sins and his subconscious gives him a suitably happy ending.

Bum-bo associates greed (the sin) with Dad's character, and Shopkeepers are often seen hanging themselves, not only that but Ultra Greed starts the fight hanged. Bum-bo's final ending can be clearly explained as something dad told Isaac before he left, in fact it explains why such ideas would be in Isaac's subconscious.

 

[BLS]

Isaac hallucinating his own corpse is like, 80% of the game's enemies and 20% of the playable characters, that's not exactly surprising yeah. And no it's not a "perfect story" he's literally recalling basic shit. He doesn't give himself a happy ending, he finally believes himself to be free of sins and his subconscious gives him a suitably happy ending.

"Are you sure this is how you want this story to end, Isaac? You're the one writing it".

not only that but Ultra Greed starts the fight hanged. Bum-bo's final ending can be clearly explained as something dad told Isaac before he left, in fact it explains why such ideas would be in Isaac's subconscious.

This is entirely headcanon, the implication that Greed is an allegory for his dad, never mind the fact him leaving and divorcing Mom is referenced, no such thing about suicide

 

[Armorchompy]

"Are you sure this is how you want this story to end, Isaac? You're the one writing it".

Holy shit it's literally just a dream, just because someone tells you you're in control of something in a dream doesn't mean you are we have been over this so many times

This is entirely headcanon, the implication that Greed is an allegory for his dad, never mind the fact him leaving and divorcing Mom is referenced, no such thing about suicide

It's me coming to conclusions from the symbolism of a game that's heavy on symbolism yes, and I have explained the logic already. He could literally just have divorced mom then killed himself.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Where is the PROOF that Issac's dad committed suicide?

 

[BLS]

Holy shit it's literally just a dream, just because someone tells you you're in control of something in a dream doesn't mean you are we have been over this so many times

No it's not, it's demonstrably not a dream, ending 22 disproves this entirely and is supported by Bumbo as his Dad helping him create his own imaginary world

It's me coming to conclusions from the symbolism of a game that's heavy on symbolism yes, and I have explained the logic already. He could literally just have divorced mom then killed himself.

i.e headcanon, Greedmode has no endings to imply this either, no ending does. The only things we know about Dad is that he divorced her and left, while checking up on him occasionally to tell him bedtime stories from the final ending

 

[Armorchompy]

Where is the PROOF that Issac's dad committed suicide?

there is no proof of anything this is literally the entire point i've been making this is not a game that just gives you the answer on a silver platter you're meant to come to your own conclusions

No it's not, it's demonstrably not a dream, ending 22 disproves this entirely and is supported by Bumbo as his Dad helping him create his own imaginary world

ending 22 was literally stated to be a hallucination by edmund and he has approved of an extensive fan explanation that specifies why that is the case we have gone over this already and i have explained why that is not just the author making up dumb bs, that is extensively foreshadowed

i.e headcanon, Greedmode has no endings to imply this either, no ending does. The only things we know about Dad is that he divorced her and left, while checking up on him occasionally to tell him bedtime stories from the final ending

sure, whatever, let's drop this point, main thing still stands, not like i've put some actual reasoning behind it which is just as "solid" as your own connections

 

[BLS]

there is no proof of anything this is literally the entire point i've been making this is not a game that just gives you the answer on a silver platter you're meant to come to your own conclusions

Backpedalling, you said last time that it's obvious, now it's ambigious

ending 22 was literally stated to be a hallucination by edmund and he has approved of an extensive fan explanation that specifies why that is the case we have gone over this already and i have explained why that is not just the author making up dumb bs, that is extensively foreshadowed

Death of the author again, the game's ending shows prior endings as fictional, i have given you examples and evidence which you proceeded to ignore

 

[Armorchompy]

Death of the author again, the game's ending shows prior endings as fictional, i have given you examples and evidence which you proceeded to ignore

Death of the author doesn't apply when there is a clear explanation that tells you why those endings are shown as fictional, one that was literally confirmed to be canon by the author. You have not addressed the video I posted and rebuked its points, which you will have to do if you want to prove Death of the Author since Edmund has approved of it.

 

[BLS]

Death of the author doesn't apply when there is a clear explanation that tells you why those endings are shown as fictional, one that was literally confirmed to be canon by the author. You have not addressed the video I posted and rebuked its points, which you will have to do if you want to prove Death of the Author since Edmund has approved of it.

Because those are not your points, linking Youtube videos from fans as proof is fallacious initself and you contradict your own claims that the game's theme and ending is "obvious"

 

[The_Pink_God]

Looks fine

 

[Armorchompy]

Because those are not your points, linking Youtube videos from fans as proof is fallacious initself and you contradict your own claims that the game's theme and ending is "obvious"

Normally it would be, but it's not when the author clearly addresses them as a good understanding of what is canon. You are bringing death of the author to a situation where it doesn't belong, Edmund's statements are perfectly coherent with the game.

You are nitpicking my wording, nothing is "obvious" with a game like this one but it is pretty clear once you dive deep enough into it.

 

[BLS]

but it's not when the author clearly addresses them as a good understanding of what is canon. You are bringing death of the author to a situation where it doesn't belong, Edmund's statements are perfectly coherent with the game.

They are not, if they were the final ending would not exist, Death of the author does apply because the ending says the contrary and does not imply otherwise, infact it implies the contrary by decaconizing Isaac's corpse as fictional

 

[Armorchompy]

They are not, if they were the final ending would not exist, Death of the author does apply because the ending says the contrary and does not imply otherwise, infact it implies the contrary by decaconizing Isaac's corpse as fictional

The ending implies it's all fake and Isaac is dying as I have explained already, it's just a little bit subtle cause Edmund wanted the players to come to their own conclusions which clearly was a mistake as we're seeing here. But to recap:

• Isaac coughs as he speaks and his voice is clearly weaker and meeker than in the other cutscenes where he's voice acted.
• Dad asks him if he's "getting sleepy yet" which clearly is meant to imply he's getting closer to death.
• The way everything fades out at the end, like Isaac's mind is finally out of oxygen.
• Dad ran away from his responsibilities in the past despite being fully aware Mom was insane, so it wouldn't make much sense if he came back.
• The various messed up things in TBOI which dad would have certainly objected to while Isaac was telling him the story.

Now none of these "prove" anything, but together they paint together a nice picture which fits in perfectly with Edmund's statement that Isaac is dead. Death of the Author is a really stupid claim to make about a man whose life is so deeply reflected in this game he's made, he's gone on record saying that Isaac's lore was always there in his head since day 1 and it's a deeply important game to him on a personal level so to assume that he'd just somehow get it wrong after 11 years of writing it is really ******* arrogant.

Also, it doesn't "decanonize" shit as fictional. It decanonizes Isaac's dream of them as fictional. The fact that Isaac's body is mentioned proves absolutely nothing about the state of the real one.

 

[BLS]

Now none of these "prove" anything,

Exactly

he'd just somehow get it wrong after 11 years of writing it is really ******* arrogant.

I didn't say he was ignorant, i was just saying there was ambiguity and evidence for the contrary, which you constantly dismissed

It decanonizes Isaac's dream of them as fictional.

Yeah which is ridiculous conceptually with his imagination being a big theme in Bumbo with his Dad together, especially so when the demon in the closet is also mentioned and a theme in the game

 

[Armorchompy]

Exactly

Missing the point here, I'm showing that there's a fuckton of evidence you're ignoring.

I didn't say he was ignorant, i was just saying there was ambiguity and evidence for the contrary, which you constantly hammered home otherwise

There's also ambiguity and evidence in favor of it. It's almost like it's ambiguous. And when something is ambiguous, author statements are perfectly viable. And yes you are saying he's ignorant or something similar considering you're saying he's literally wrong about the ending of the story that he wrote.

Yeah which is ridiculous conceptually with his imagination being a big theme in Bumbo with his Dad together, especially so when the demon in the closet is also mentioned and a theme in the game

Imagination literally doesn't have to be conscious, this proves nothing. Furthermore Dad's message to Isaac in Bum-Bo can easily be interpreted as something he told him before he left him with Mom.

 

[BLS]

Missing the point here, I'm showing that there's a fuckton of evidence you're ignoring.

I've seen it and you've been ignoring mine, like how the demon/Satan is in the final ending, his corpse from the Hush/Delirium ending's is present and the end shows it was just a bedtime story

There's also ambiguity and evidence in favor of it. It's almost like it's ambiguous. And when something is ambiguous, author statements are perfectly viable. And yes you are saying he's ignorant or something similar considering you're saying he's literally wrong about the ending of the story that he wrote.

I'm more for taking the source material for what it is, also don't put words in my mouth that i insulted Ed or whatever, you brought him and the youtube video up first

 

[Armorchompy]

I've seen it and you've been ignoring mine, like how the demon/Satan is in the final ending, his corpse from the Hush/Delirium ending's is present and the end shows it was just a bedtime story

I mean... yeah, they are, at most it's a second layer of illusions, still doesn't really prove anything. But really it's nothing that complex, first he hallucinates satan/hush/whatever, then he hallucinates the bedtime story bit, then he dies. There isn't any complex layer of dreams or grand decanonization, it's literally just him seeing things. The whole game is him seeing things. Even the opening cutscene is him seeing things, at least that's implied.

I'm more for taking the source material for what it is, also don't put words in my mouth that i insulted Ed or whatever, you brought him and the youtube video first up

Literally everything in the source material can be countered with "sike! it's an illusion!", and no you literally are not meant to "take it for what it is" I have already explained it's way more ambiguous than that.

And yes, I brought him up because when discussing the meaning of an ending author intent is fairly important. Maybe you might not have meant to insult him but the point stays, he knows the meaning behind the story he wrote better than anyone else, if dad is shown to be alive but he says it was an illusion, it was an illusion, that doesn't "contrast" the story it contrasts your own perception of the story.

 

[BLS]

I mean... yeah, they are, at most it's a second layer of illusions, still doesn't really prove anything. But really it's nothing that complex, first he hallucinates satan/hush/whatever, then he hallucinates the bedtime story bit, then he dies. There isn't any complex layer of dreams or grand decanonization, it's literally just him seeing things. The whole game is him seeing things. Even the opening cutscene is him seeing things, at least that's implied.

Dude Hush/Delirium's are the exact same skeleton, which appears in the Beast ending implying that's how it was told in his head, i hope you aren't implying he can see into the future or whatever

Literally everything in the source material can be countered with "sike! it's an illusion!", and no you literally are not meant to "take it for what it is" I have already explained it's way more ambiguous than that.

And yes, I brought him up because when discussing the meaning of an ending author intent is fairly important. Maybe you might not have meant to insult him but the point stays, he knows the meaning behind the story he wrote better than anyone else, if dad is shown to be alive but he says it was an illusion, it was an illusion, that doesn't "contrast" the story it contrasts your own perception of the story.

Yeah's but he actually has to "show" it, which doesn't happen, at face value the bedtime story is how it ends and it makes sense with Bumbo as his Dad told stories with him previously, previous endings were also unambigious about what happens, Isaac dying in 2 which was part of the story like i said

 

[Armorchompy]

Dude Hush/Delirium's are the exact same skeleton, which appears in the Beast ending implying that's how it was told in his head, i hope you aren't implying he can see into the future or whatever

Those are all images that show up all the time in his head, "dude", that's what The Forgotten comes from as well, he's not "seeing the future" it's just one of many ideas that keep showing up in this disturbed child's psyche. Which is the entire damn point of the game.

Yeah's but he actually has to "show" it, which doesn't happen, at face value the bedtime story is how it ends and it makes sense with Bumbo as his Dad told stories with him previously, previous endings were also unambigious about what happens, Isaac dying in 2 which was part of the story like i said

You have admitted yourself that it is ambiguous, so this ending is already different from the previous ones there. You're not gonna see him "show" it, cause that's not the kind of ending it is. But there is a lot of implications + an author statement, which is more than good enough. If you're taking it at face value you're missing the point, Edmund has literally stated that the Binding of Isaac has always had a deeper meaning. Just because you cannot see the symbolism in previous endings doesn't mean it isn't there. Even the very first cutscene of Isaac, with Isaac escaping from mom, isn't actually real, if anything the newer ending is less cryptic in what it's about considering Ed came forward and explained it, which he's never done before.

 

[Livinmeme]

Me seeing this thread