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A Belmont fights a Dragonborn

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It's canon but basically every other source says that the Belmont's and Dracula became significantly stronger over time, and judgement is the only thing that contradicts it, so pis isnt out of the realm of possibility
But I never denied that, what I said is that the gap isn't enough to warrant a super AP advantage, with Judgement showing this. Also Trevor in Judgement is post Dracula 3 which makes him stronger than the time he killed Dracula (We can see in Curse Of Darkness that he is WAY stronger and believed to be capable of defeating Dracula by himself) so there's that
 
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Then at the most that just means trevor likely became stronger after defeating dracula, which means the scaling still works.
 
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This is a TES dragon who is an abstract entity of time.



That's not even true. Alduin is beyond any dimensional tiering. He is a Time God on his own.
We don't consider normal elder scrolls dragons to be abstracts or 4-D, them being fragments of time only gives them acausality. Alduin is the only one we consider to be abstract and 4-D and bend will doesn't work on him.
 
And alduin isn't beyond dimensional tiering lol, he's 4-D from being able to fly through the currents of time but nothing more.
 
We don't consider normal elder scrolls dragons to be abstracts or 4-D, them being fragments of time only gives them acausality. Alduin is the only one we consider to be abstract and 4-D and bend will doesn't work on him.
It doesn't work on Paarthurnax either and we both know that Alduin and Paarthurnax are Fodder to Miraak. I'm like 90% that's gameplay mechanics that prevent you from taking over Alduin and Paarthurnax.
 
It doesn't work on Paarthurnax either and we both know that Alduin and Paarthurnax are Fodder to Miraak. I'm like 90% that's gameplay mechanics that prevent you from taking over Alduin and Paarthurnax.
That's headcanon. It has no feats of affecting 4-D's or abstracts so we can't just say it can when there's no evidence to prove it. And them being fodder doesn't mean Miraak can definitely use this hax against them when there's nothing to suggest it. The accepted way of determining bend will's potency is via the amount of people it affected on solthseim, which is in the hundreds.
 
anyways i'm just going to summarize some points for each character because i would like to get some votes

Juste: Vampire Killer's soul hax is something Miraak can't really resist, danmaku is something Miraak doesn't have a direct counter for, vampire killer's power null means projectile attacks aren't reliable and passive power null could potentially weaken miraak though not to an enormous degree

Miraak: LIkely has an ap advantage that he can further amp via dragon aspect, significantly more experience and likely far more intelligent, his robes will reduce damage from magic attacks and allow him to more easily replenish magika, bfr is something juste doesn't resist
 
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also from what i understand we only consider alduin to be 4-D, not normal dragons, they just have acausality.

We don't consider normal elder scrolls dragons to be abstracts or 4-D, them being fragments of time only gives them acausality.
I don't what "we" didn't accept it but it's the truth. All dragons are fragments of time that exist to extend and cohere the flow of time. I won't repeat myself any further from this fact.

This is from Alduin's page itself. All dragons have the same quality as Alduin with exception for power level. LOL!
Acausality (Type 4; Dragons are not born nor hatched, they simply are, being eternal, immortal, unchanging, and unyielding), Higher-Dimensional Existence,
 
A greater dragon was able to withstand Molag Bal's mental and physical tortures, to the point where Molag Bal was dumbfounded and decided to just say "**** it" and killed the dragon.

So Molag Bal opened a window between worlds to allow the Dragon to pass into our Lord's realm, where Boziikkodstrun was granted the privilege of being bound in chains of cold ebon iron, and set in a place of honor in the nethermost depths of the Tower of Lies. For our Lord and Master desired to know the secrets of the Dragons' dominance over the mortals of Nirn. Long was the Dragon tortured and interrogated. But the Dragon was haughty and indignant at his ill treatment, and no matter what torments were brought to bear, the intransigent Boziikkodstrun refused to utter so much as a single syllable in his abrasive language to reveal the secrets of the Dov.

And yes, this does include mental torture. Molag Bal has been known to use mind magic to torture his prisoners.

The God of Schemes invaded my mind many times during my imprisonment. It was a torturous experience.
But by forcing his way into my mind, he inadvertently opened his own thoughts to me and thus created a ***** in his own armor.


The fact that Bend Will is smurfy for being able to mind bend dragons is not really outside of the realm of possibility, since the shout came from Hermaeus Mora and was probably made by him.
 
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I still don't really buy it being 4-D mindhax but since that's all this debate is going to come down to there's no real point in continuing.
 
This is from Alduin's page itself. All dragons have the same quality as Alduin with exception for power level. LOL!
Acausality (Type 4; Dragons are not born nor hatched, they simply are, being eternal, immortal, unchanging, and unyielding), Higher-Dimensional Existence,
We only accept alduin having higher dimensional existence, if you want proof look at paarthurnax and durnehviir's pages, they only have type 4 acausality, nothing else. And Alduin is constantly stated to be infinitely superior to every other dragon in skyrim so trying to scale or compare normal dragons to him is folly.
 
He's also kind of just a different sort of entity entirely, that's how he's portrayed atleast.
 
I mean all Belmonts can resist 4-D mindhax I'm pretty sure, at first I thought this was gonna be a stomp but I'll add my two cents.

Unless this AP gap is enough to oneshot then meh atm, besides Juste can amp himself there. Plus forcefields to help protect him, passive power null helps against the more serious stuff like that mentioned above. Miraak's forcefields probably won't work, Leon Belmont was able to destroy Walter's barriers in Lament of Innocence once he got the vampire killer so don't see Juste having much issue either.

So I'm not seeing resist to soul manip so Juste can just slap him right in the spirit, he doesn't have an in character opening move but he'll probably open with the whip cause Belmont. That said I think Miraak tends to favour ranged combat with higher AP and I'd wager BFR can work, atm I'll lean on Juste 6/10
 
I'm fairly certain Dracula's castle has passive mindhax and its a 4D structure, that's assuming Vampire Killer's Null doesn't say no anyway
 
I'm fairly certain Dracula's castle has passive mindhax and its a 4D structure, that's assuming Vampire Killer's Null doesn't say no anyway
The castle does passively mindhax, I'm unsure about it being 4-d but then again im also unsure about bend will being 4-d. Anyways I'll add your vote
 
just cause something is 4d doesnt mean all of it's abilities are 4d
Well yes that's true but the castle passively mindhaxes regardless and we've treated it as 4D afaik in other discussions, not like its gonna matter anyway cause Vampire Killer likely just nulls regardless
 
Well yes that's true but the castle passively mindhaxes regardless and we've treated it as 4D afaik in other discussions, not like its gonna matter anyway cause Vampire Killer likely just nulls regardless
If we've treated castlevania mind hax as 4-D in the past then I guess it's okay.
 
Miraak's AP is around 44 times above baseline, and during the "At the Summit of Apocrypha" questline, he absorbed 3 other low 2-C dragons' souls.

Bend Will isn't just 4-D mind hax. It's able to affect dragons that Molag Bal would have a hard time controlling. Molag Bal, whose sphere of influence is literally domination. Literally, the instances in which dragons are mind-controlled are only in Dragonborn DLC. This is consistent with a dremora's description about how dragons are unyielding and why Bend Will is such a big deal. Of course, normal dragons aren't capable of resisting a Daedric Prince's mind hax, since the book explicitly stated the one that resisted Molag Bal's mind control was a greater dovah

A dragon soul by default is already resistant to soul manipulation, since nearly no one other than a dragonborn is capable of affecting or destroying it. Not to mention that Miraak's dragon soul directly power his combat abilities, making Miraak's soul 4-D. So, unless the soul manipulation is 4-D, then it won't work on Miraak.

"You learn a new word like a master... you truly do have the gift. But learning a Word of Power is only the first step... you must unlock its meaning through constant practice in order to use it in a Shout. Well, that is how the rest of us learn Shouts. As Dragonborn, you can absorb a slain dragon's life force and knowledge directly."

Nords consider themselves to be the children of the sky, and the breath and the voice of a Nord is his vital essence. Through the use of the Voice, the vital power of a Nord can be articulated into a thu'um, or shout.
 
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Miraak's AP is around 44 times above baseline, and during the Summit of Apocrypha questline, he absorbed 3 other low 2-C dragons' souls.

Bend Will isn't just 4-D mind hax. It's able to affect dragons that Molag Bal would have a hard time controlling. Molag Bal, whose sphere of influence is literally domination. Literally, the instances in which dragons are mind-controlled are only in Dragonborn DLC. This is consistent with a dremora's description about how dragons are unyielding and why Bend Will is such a big deal. Of course, normal dragons aren't capable of resisting a Daedric Prince's mind hax, since the book explicitly stated the one that resisted Molag Bal's mind control was a greater dovah

A dragon soul by default already is already resistant to soul manipulation, since nearly no one other than a dragonborn is capable of affecting or destroying it. Not to mention that Miraak's dragon soul directly power his combat abilities, so Miraak's soul is 4-D by default. So, unless the soul manipulation is 4-D, then it won't work on Miraak.

"You learn a new word like a master... you truly do have the gift. But learning a Word of Power is only the first step... you must unlock its meaning through constant practice in order to use it in a Shout. Well, that is how the rest of us learn Shouts. As Dragonborn, you can absorb a slain dragon's life force and knowledge directly."

Nords consider themselves to be the children of the sky, and the breath and the voice of a Nord is his vital essence. Through the use of the Voice, the vital power of a Nord can be articulated into a thu'um, or shout.
what evidence is there that the dragons of apocrypha are low 2-C? Because they can fight a late game dragon born and not instantly die? I mean any dragon can theoretically do that but not all dragons are low 2-C.

What evidence is there that bend will can effect higher level dragons like the one molag bal tortured especially considering that in game it doesn't work on most higher level dragons like paarthurnax? Also not only do the belmonts resist the castle's passive mind hax, they also resist/null dracula's mind hax which is far superior

How does dragon souls being resistant to normal soul manip make them 4-D by default? Is it from Durnehviir resisting soul manip from the ideal masters? Also if Dracula's castle's passive mind manip is 4-D then it's passive soul manip is also 4-D, and vampire killer's soul manip is superior than that.
 
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what evidence is there that the dragons of apocrypha are low 2-C? Because they can fight a late game dragon born and not instantly die? I mean any dragon can theoretically do that but not all dragons are low 2-C.

What evidence is there that bend will can effect higher level dragons like the one molag bal tortured especially considering that in game it doesn't work on most higher level dragons like paarthurnax? Also not only do the belmonts resist the castle's passive mind hax, they also resist/null dracula's mind hax which is far superior

How does dragon souls being resistant to normal soul manip make them 4-D by default? Is it from Durnehviir resisting soul manip from the ideal masters? Also if Dracula's castle's passive mind manip is 4-D then it's passive soul manip is also 4-D, and vampire killer's soul manip is superior than that.
Because they were actively participating in the fight and Miraak even send one of his dragons to kill the Dovahkiin, implying that he think that his dragons were capable of fighting against end game Dovahkiin. Their souls were also powerful enough to restore Miraak's strength to keep fighting against the Dovahkiin. Those dragons are greater dovah based on their power.

Because the dragon's will wasn't anything beyond other greater dragons'. Dragons' unyielding nature is a common trait across their species. They should be comparable to each other unless one has a feat or specific mention of being above the rest.

There is no credible story of how dragons came to be. According to dremora that the College of Whispers have "questioned," they just were, and are. Eternal, immortal, unchanging, and unyielding [...]

And that's just game mechanic. Even Sahloknir (an early game dragon) is unaffected by Bend Will, and so are the fodder dragons in Skuldafn. Heck, even the dragons that canonically fought mid game Dovahkiin, and has no story are unaffected by Bend Will. Point is, aside from Alduin, we don't know which instance of resistance is game mechanic, and which is lore-based. You can argue that one is more logical than another, but it will all just be headcanon.

Normal dragons' souls aren't 4-D and It's doesn't come from Durnehviir. All I said is that Miraak's 4-D soul came from it being the source of power for Miraak who is low 2-C. Being able to power a low 2-C attacks automatically makes his soul 4-D. And if Durnehviir's feat is applicable (which it's not), that would make Miraak and the Dovahkiin's soul resistances low 1-C.
 
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Because they were actively participating in the fight, and Miraak even send one of his dragons to kill the Dovahkiin, implying that he think that his dragons are capable of fighting against end game Dovahkiin. Their souls were also powerful enough to restore Miraak's strength to keep fighting against the Dovahkiin. Those dragons are greater dovah based on their power.

Because the dragon's will wasn't anything beyond other greater dragons'. Dragons' unyielding nature is a common trait across their species. They should be comparable to each other unless one has a feat or specific mention of being above the rest.

There is no credible story of how dragons came to be. According to dremora that the College of Whispers have "questioned," they just were, and are. Eternal, immortal, unchanging, and unyielding [...]

And that's just game mechanic. Even Sahloknir (an early game dragon) is unaffected by Bend Will, and so are the fodder dragons in Skuldafn. Heck, even the dragons that canonically fought mid game Dovahkiin, and has no story are unaffected by Bend Will. Point is, aside from Alduin, we don't know which instance of resistance is game mechanic, and which is lore-based. You can argue that one is more logical than another, but it will all just be headcanon.

It's doesn't come from Durnehviir. All I said is that the 4-D soul comes from it being the source of power for Miraak, who is low 2-C. Being able to power a low 2-C attacks automatically makes his soul 4-D. And if Durnehviir's feat is applicable (which it's not), that would make Miraak and the Dovahkiin's soul resistances low 1-C.
I still don't think that's evidence of them being stronger. Also I'm fairly certain miraak sent his mora dragon to attack the dovahkiin so they'd have a way to reach the summit, remember at this point his plan was kill the dovahkiin and absorb his soul so he'd become strong enough to leave apocrypha, letting one of his random henchdragons do that kind of makes that pointless. And miraak healing from absorbing dragon souls seems like a hax thing more than anything else.

But you yourself said that not all dragons can have their mind/soul hax resistance compared to daedric princes, so comparing any of them to the one bal tortured seems folly. Imo it seems like different dragons have vastly different resistance to soul and mind hax so saying the average dragon has resistance to 4d hax seems folly though thats just my opinion.

Sorry if my comment makes no sense I'm like super tired rn
 
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I still don't think that's evidence of them being stronger. Also I'm fairly certain miraak sent his mora dragon to attack the dovahkiin so they'd have a way to reach the summit, remember at this point his plan was kill the dovahkiin and absorb his soul so he'd become strong enough to leave apocrypha, letting one of his random henchdragons do that kind of makes that pointless. And miraak healing from absorbing dragon souls seems like a hax thing more than anything else.

But you yourself said that not all dragons can have their mind/soul hax resistance compared to daedric princes, so comparing any of them to the one bal tortured seems folly. Imo it seems like different dragons have vastly different resistance to soul and mind hax so saying the average dragon has resistance to 4d hax seems folly though thats just my opinion.
Good point. But that still doesn't answer how the dragons' souls (which contain the life force of the dragon and in turn powers Miraak's thu'um) were able to restore Miraak's strength.

What I meant is that weak dovahs are incomparable to greater dovahs. The book itself makes explicit mention of Boziikkodstrun being a greater dovah, which basically exclude any normal or weaker dragons from having the same resistance. However, it doesn't mention Boziikkodstrun to be an exception among greater dragons. Stronger greater dragons like Sahrotaar who could fight against the Dovahkiin, should have a comparable level of resistance.
 
I'm pretty certain the healing is just some sort of hax unique hax or something, especially since it's the only time absorbing a dragon soul results in healing.
 
I'm pretty certain the healing is just some sort of hax unique hax or something, especially since it's the only time absorbing a dragon soul results in healing.
That just mean that Miraak is capable of using the dragons' life force in different ways. Miraak's mastery over dragon soul is such that even his projection is capable of taking a slain dragon's soul from the Dovahkiin. So it's not really outside of the realm of possibility that he found another way to use it's power. Regardless, health, like magicka and stamina, is part of the three components that make up a soul (Vanus Galerion literally split his soul to these three parts to limit his power). The fact that it could literally restore Miraak's health from the brink of death prove that their souls, and thus their thu'um, are comparable to Miraak's and the Dovahkiin's.
 
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I mean I don't see soul manip resist on Mirrak last I saw his profile, didn't his spirit like get yeeted at the end of the fight or smth?

Also passive power null says no
 
I mean I don't see soul manip resist on Mirrak last I saw his profile, didn't his spirit like get yeeted at the end of the fight or smth?

Also passive power null says no
Weird. Dragon soul whole deal is that it can't be affected and manipulated by normal people and magic. That's the whole reason why Dragonborn is called the ultimate dragon slayer.

And how will he power null Bend Will? Like I've established, it's smurfy and I doubt that Juste has anything that can null it.
 
I mean Vampire Killer can passively null fricken Dracula's hax and his 4D castle so there's that

"The Vampire Killer is able to nullify or reflect Magic and projectiles with its touch alone, it also weakened Dracula's powers so much that he was unable to resurrect himself or use his powers to escape for several years." "The Vampire Killer through its presence alone weakened Dracula's disembodied Soul and powers so much that he was unable to resurrect himself or escape from the sealed castle for several years"

Tbh if Juste can't do anything here cause huge AP gap and apparently resists stuff then its a stomp, maybe try Dracula or Death? AP-ing Dracula is moot as he can come back from being vaporised
 
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I mean Vampire Killer can passively null fricken Dracula's hax and his 4D castle so there's that

"The Vampire Killer is able to nullify or reflect Magic and projectiles with its touch alone, it also weakened Dracula's powers so much that he was unable to resurrect himself or use his powers to escape for several years." "The Vampire Killer through its presence alone weakened Dracula's disembodied Soul and powers so much that he was unable to resurrect himself or escape from the sealed castle for several years"

Tbh if Juste can't do anything here cause huge AP gap and apparently resists stuff then its a stomp, maybe try Dracula or Death? AP-ing Dracula is moot as he can come back from being vaporised
If we take the feat from the "Daedra Dossiers: The Titans" book (which is where the whole greater dovah and Molag Bal thing came from), Bend Will would be a high 1-B mind hax for being able to mind hax greater dragons that Bal couldn't.

Well, it's up to you guys. In the first place, I wasn't really arguing for Miraak, and rather more arguing about Bend Will being a smurf hax.
 
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Wait I forgot its TES everything and their daddy is a smurf lol, I don't think VK can null that now. Maybe try Death or Dracula? They have like concept manip stuff iirc
 
Also I really disagree with scaling every dragon to the one in that story, just because it's such a high level feat and bend will is never portrayed as being that potent.
 
it isnt every dragon, it is just greater dovas
Even that I'm sketchy on, considering bend will in game doesn't work on greater dovah like paarthurnax and durnehviir. Now we could argue about whether that's gameplay shenanigans all day but considering durnehviir's own soul manip feat it seems likely to me atleast that there's a large amount of variance between the resistances of specific dragons.
 
That just mean that Miraak is capable of using the dragons' life force in different ways. Miraak's mastery over dragon soul is such that even his projection is capable of taking a slain dragon's soul from the Dovahkiin. So it's not really outside of the realm of possibility that he found another way to use it's power. Regardless, health, like magicka and stamina, is part of the three components that make up a soul (Vanus Galerion literally split his soul to these three parts to limit his power). The fact that it could literally restore Miraak's health from the brink of death prove that their souls, and thus their thu'um, are comparable to Miraak's and the Dovahkiin's.
Normal bandits can significantly heal a late game dovahkiin if they use vampiric drain on them, I don't think we can use something like absorption hax to determine somethings tier.
 
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