DBZ Speed CRT

[UchihaSlayer96]

I think this might be going a bit too far, maybe we should just take the things we know about for sure, like half power SSJ Goku being above Grade II Vegeta and half power SSJ2 Gohan being able to keep up with Cell, and apply that.

The Buu Saga stuff seems much less solid, and should probably be left to its own thread.

I agree with this.

The only thing we know for sure is that SSJ2 Buu Saga Goku is > than Cell Saga SSJ2 Gohan by some unknown margin.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah. We have hard statements for the Cell Games era and we can leave the rest for later

 

[DBZMLP12345]

I think only Goku surpassed Cell Games SS2 Gohan. At least he's the only one with a hard statement.

You mean when Vegeta states after Goku went SSJ2 "Well, at least your stronger then your Son was against Cell"? Then goes onto fight on par with that same Goku? I mean, obviously Vegeta got a boost from becoming a Majin, regardless, going off Vegeta's other showings, he could be stronger (and therefore faster) then SSJ Goku and Frieza from Namek in his Base

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah. We can at least say that Super Vegeta < 50% FPSSJ Goku << Super Perfect Cell < 50% SSJ2 Gohan

 

[Qawsedf234]

Actually wait I do remember one statement. When Babidi's two bald dudes drained SS2 Gohan, that brought Majin Buu to half power. So SS2 Gohan = 50% Fat Buu without the rage amps.

I mean, obviously Vegeta got a boost from becoming a Majin

Exactly. He said that even with all of his training he didn't approach Goku, which is why he let Babidid take him over to get an amp. Making Teen Gohan scaling questionable.

 

[DBZMLP12345]

Do we need more staff input for the Saiyan/Namek/Frieza/Android/Cell Games scale?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Exactly. He said that even with all of his training he didn't approach Goku, which is why he let Babidid take him over to get an amp. Making Teen Gohan scaling questionable.

For Vegeta. He did said that Goku definitely surpassed Gohan by that point

 

[LordTracer]

Buu Saga SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta surpassing Gohan should be fine as well since Goku surpassing him is blatantly stated and Vegeta kept up with Goku.

So basically we’ve got:

Super Vegeta = At least 1,490c
50% Cell Games Goku = At least 1,490c
100% Cell Games Goku = At least 2,980c
Perfect Cell = At least 2,980c
Super-Perfect Cell = At least 2,980c
50% SSJ2 Gohan = At least 2,980c
100% SSJ2 Gohan = At least 5,960c
SSJ2 Goku / Majin Vegeta = At least 5,960c

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah Goku > Gohan. Well Goku > Cell Games Gohan. Vegeta still wasn't sure if they were stronger if Gohan tapped into his inner rage.

Super Vegeta = At least 1,490c
50% Cell Games Goku = At least 1,490c
100% Cell Games Goku = At least 2,980c
Perfect Cell = At least 2,980c
Super-Perfect Cell = At least 2,980c
50% SSJ2 Gohan = At least 2,980c
100% SSJ2 Gohan = At least 5,960c
SSJ2 Goku / Majin Vegeta = At least 5,960c

Fat Boo would be >10,000c as well

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

If SSJ2 Gohan's power was half of the power needed to awaken Buu, then Buu is 2 * SSJ2 Gohan, which is also supported by canon since Buu destroyed him in their battle. He was only saved when he got teleported to the sacred world of kais

 

[LordTracer]

Fat Boo would be >10,000c as well

Yeah, Buu would be 11,920c, and that’s all we can get with explicit statements.

 

[DBZMLP12345]

And Fat Buu was getting beat by SSJ3 Goku, then Base Vegito should be at the very least a similar level to that and then give him a 50x boost for his SSJ form

SSJ3 Goku = At Least 11,920c

Base Vegito = At Least 11,920c
SSJ Vegito = At Least 596,000c

 

[LordTracer]

Wow I forgot Vegetto existed lmao

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah, Buu would be 11,920c, and that’s all we can get with explicit statements.

Uh, actually:

- We got Base Post-RoSaT Gotenks surpassing SSJ3 Goku, who scale above Buu's 11,920c

- SSJ Gotenks is a 50 times multiplier, meaning SSJ Gotenks is 596,000c

- Super Buu scales above that = >596,000c

- Ultimate Gohan is above Super Buu = >>596,000c

- Buutenks stomps Gohan = >>>596,000c

- Buuhan is massively stronger = >>>>596,000c

- SSJ Vegito effortlessly demolishes Buuhan = >>>>>>596,000c (and even if Base Vegito scales to SSJ Gotenks (which everything suggest he scales above Gohan as he's the strongest character in DBZ), then SSJ Vegito would be 29,800,000c)

 

[DBZMLP12345]

Lol

 

[LordTracer]

Ugh, okay, this should be the full scale:

Super Vegeta = At least 1,490c
50% Cell Games Goku = At least 1,490c
100% Cell Games Goku = At least 2,980c
Perfect Cell = At least 2,980c
Super-Perfect Cell = At least 2,980c
50% SSJ2 Gohan = At least 2,980c
100% SSJ2 Gohan = At least 5,960c
SSJ2 Goku / Majin Vegeta = At least 5,960c
Fat Buu = At least 11,920c
Post-RoSaT Gotenks = At least 11,920c
Post-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks = At least 596,000c
Vegetto = At least 596,000c
SSJ Vegetto = At least 29,800,000c

 

[Qawsedf234]

We got Base Post-RoSaT Gotenks surpassing SSJ3 Goku, who scale above Buu's 11,920c

Does he? Gotenks got demolished by Fat Buu and Piccolo was wrong about basically every single prediction of Super Boo's strength

 

[LordTracer]

Does he? Gotenks got demolished by Fat Buu and Piccolo was wrong about basically every single prediction of Super Boo's strength

That’s Gotenks before the RoSaT though.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Does he? Gotenks got demolished by Fat Buu and Piccolo was wrong about basically every single prediction of Super Boo's strength

I meant after they trained in the Room of Spirit and Time, which was when Super Buu arrived

After that it was greatly implied they surpassed their SSJ form, and by extention SSJ3 Goku, since SSJ Gotenks Pre-RoSaT > SSJ3 Goku

 

[Qawsedf234]

I meant after they trained in the Room of Spirit and Time

What's the evidence of that though? As I said if its Piccolo then I don't think its solid evidence. He was wrong about basically every prediction of Super Boo's power

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

What's the evidence of that though? As I said if its Piccolo then I don't think its solid evidence. He was wrong about basically every prediction of Super Boo's power

Well, I couldn't find it. Gotenks just said he was leagues above his previous self

 

[LordTracer]

Isn’t the statement of SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku in the Daizenshuu?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Well, I couldn't find it. Gotenks just said he was leagues above his previous self

Gotenks being stronger than he was previously doesn't mean he's superior to SS3 Goku. SS3 Gotenks and maybe SS1 Gotens have the evidence for it though, considering this statement from Goku.

Isn’t the statement of SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku in the Daizenshuu?

Dunno if it is. But I do know the manga reason is that Goku and Piccolo were confident that SS1 Gotenks would be enough for Fat Boo.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Gotenks being stronger than he was previously doesn't mean he's superior to SS3 Goku. SS3 Gotenks and maybe SS1 Gotens have the evidence for it though, considering this statement from Goku.

Dunno if it is. But I do know the manga reason is that Goku and Piccolo were confident that SS1 Gotenks would be enough for Fat Boo.

Yeah, Goku said that SSJ Gotenks would be a better match against Fat Buu than SSJ3 Goku, which is why Super Buu was even after the kids in the first place

 

[DBZMLP12345]

Agreed, I don’t believe Post ROSAT Base Gotenks Surpassed SSJ3 Goku either, but I can believe Post ROSAT SSJ Gotenks did

 

[LordTracer]

Well, if we say Pre-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks scales to Fat Buu, and Post-RoSaT Gotenks scales above his previous SSJ self, then the scaling chain should be fine.

Otherwise it’d be:
Fat Buu = At least 11,920c
SSJ Gotenks = At least 11,920c
Vegetto = At least 11,920c
SSJ Vegetto = At least 596,000c

 

[Qawsedf234]

I found the Daizenshuu section that covered Gotenks

Gotenks
A character formed by Goten and Trunks merging through Fusion
History: In order to defeat Majin Buu, who boasted absolute strength, Goku taught Fusion to Goten and Trunks as a last resort, and thus Gotenks was born. After several failures, they finally succeeded in merging together. The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others. However, they were taken in by Buu, who had powered up by absorbing the good portion of himself.

First Appearance: chapter 480

Special Characteristics: He has Goten’s hair color and Trunks’ feature. He has an extremely haughty personality, as if only the bad parts of Goten and Trunks’ personalities show through. There is a normal-type Gotenks as well as a Super Saiyan one, and he can also transform post-Fusion, being the only person besides Goku who can become a Super Saiyan 3. (Daizenshuu 2, p.118-119)

Techniques :Rapid-Fire Die-Die Missiles, Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack, Rapid-Fire Super Doughnuts, Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack—10-Ghost Finish, etc.

Source: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32226

The bolded bit is the important one, but the guide isn't specific if its about his base form or not. It probably refers to Gotenks' SS1 and SS3 forms, which makes more sense considering the part about Buu becoming stronger as well.

Otherwise it’d be:
Fat Buu = At least 11,920c
SSJ Gotenks = At least 11,920c
Vegetto = At least 11,920c
SSJ Vegetto = At least 596,000c

Yeah I think that's the best we got

EDIT: The Daizenshuu also states his base form is better than SS3

Special Characteristics: Being a combination of two Saiyans, his appearance hasn’t changed all that much, and feels like a combination of Goku’s face and Vegeta’s hairstyle. He has both Vegeta’s coolheaded battle strategies and Goku’s pure fighting sense, and there can be no doubt that his strength measures even greater than that of a [Super] Saiyan 3. He is capable of transforming from his normal state into a Super Saiyan form. He has certain Special Characteristics: , including that his strength doesn’t change even if his shape does. He was born only once, and battled Majin Buu (Daizenshuu 2, p.113).

So Base Vegetto > SS3. Its not speific about if its talking about Goku or Gotenks, but for the sake of a lowball it would be enough to make his base speed equal to SS3 Goku's

 

[DivineAura44]

IIRC, all we know that its the power of both dudes, and a tens of times power increase to it. At least, that's what I recall from Vados' statements.

And there was a databook shit about character A's power x Character B's power. Not sure how we can even quantify that.

It's most likely 60 as it was also stated to be dozens. Which would fall under tens and dozens.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So the final list at the end will look like per Tracer's suggestion

100% Frieza =At least 1,192c
SSJ Goku =At least 1,490c
SS1 Grade 2 Vegeta = At least 1,490c
FPSS1 Goku = At least 2,980c
Perfect Cell/Dabura = At least 2,980c
SS2 Teen Gohan = At least 5,960c
Fat Buu = At least 11,920c
SS1 Gotenks/SS3 Goku = At least 11,920c
Vegetto = At least 11,920c
SS1 Vegetto = At least 596,000c

Everyone cool with the above

 

[DBZMLP12345]

So this is what we got

Everyone who scales to Frieza Saga SSJ Goku up to 50% Cell Games Grade 4 SSJ Goku will be At Least 1,490c

With Cell Games Full Power SSJ Goku, Cell Games SSJ Gohan, Perfect Cell (Suppressed against Goku and Gohan and his also his Full Power) Super Perfect Cell (and Dabura?) will be At Least 2,980c

With Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan, Buu Saga SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta will be At Least 5,960c

With everyone who scales to Fat Buu up to Buuhan will be At Least 11,920c

With SSJ Vegito being At Least 596,000c

Well, until a proper thread discussing the scale for the Top Tier Cell Games and Buu Saga Characters is made anyway

 

[Orange]

So this is what we got

Everyone who scales to Frieza Saga SSJ Goku up to 50% Cell Games Grade 4 SSJ Goku will be At Least 1,490c

With Cell Games Full Power SSJ Goku, Cell Games SSJ Gohan, Perfect Cell (Suppressed against Goku and Gohan and his also his Full Power) Super Perfect Cell (and Dabura?) will be At Least 2,980c

With Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan, Buu Saga SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta will be At Least 5,960c

With everyone who scales to Fat Buu up to Buuhan will be At Least 11,920c

With SSJ Vegito being At Least 596,000c

Well, until a proper thread discussing the scale for the Top Tier Cell Games and Buu Saga Characters is made anyway

Those numbers are huge too huge but surprisingly they make sense imo

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah I think that's sounds good. If Ryu can add it to his blog with the following scans we should be good

• SS1 Goku
• SS2 Gohan
• Fat Buu
• SS1 Gotenks ~ SS3 Goku
• The Daizenshuu character bios for Gotenks and Vegetto

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah I think that's sounds good. If Ryu can add it to his blog with the following scans we should be good

• SS1 Goku
• SS2 Gohan
• Fat Buu
• SS1 Gotenks ~ SS3 Goku
• The Daizenshuu character bios for Gotenks and Vegetto

Nice

If Gotenks indeed didn't surpassed Goku after his time in the RoSaT, then the justifications for Gotenks' tier should be changed too

 

[Qawsedf234]

We could just change the second key's ratings to match the first key.

 

[SSJRyu1]

The suggestions certainly sound reasonable to me as additions, although I would like to hear what more people have to say as well before implementing them since a lot of people on the thread haven't weighed in on further scaling being implemented.

Can I get the individuals who agree, or not, with the further scaling suggested to comment in order to keep track of how people feel about it?

 

[ByAsura]

Actually wait I do remember one statement. When Babidi's two bald dudes drained SS2 Gohan, that brought Majin Buu to half power. So SS2 Gohan = 50% Fat Buu without the rage amps.


Exactly. He said that even with all of his training he didn't approach Goku, which is why he let Babidid take him over to get an amp. Making Teen Gohan scaling questionable.

I was thinking of bringing this up, myself, but it's discussed and rejected in multiple Dabura threads. Also, it makes Buu really, really close in power to SS2 Buu Saga Goku, whereas Innocent Buu alone was portrayed as superior to SS2 Vegeta while fighting Kid Buu.

As for base Vegito scaling to Super Saiyan 3 Goku, I think it's fine. There's nothing to contradict it, and Super Vegito being so massively above Buuhan while holding back (he could have obliterated him, but didn't to save his family and friends) places him well above Gotenks, who survived a massive beating from Fat Buu even before training in the Time Chamber. Keep in mind that Piccolo implies he couldn't transform after Fusion until the RoSaT training.

 

[DivineAura44]

Didn't Gohan go SSJ2 against Dabura? This would make Dabura 50% as well no? As well as the fact if we do actually take 2 and 3 into account, SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta should be SSJ2 Gohan as I think they stated that was the only reason Gohan was to fight Dabura, as a test. This should put them ahead, but SSJ3 Goku was fighting equal with Majin Buu. How would Fat Buu contend?


Oh yeah, rage amps. But Buu didn't look enraged at the start of the fight and he was contending just fine.

 

[ByAsura]

Daizenshuu 7 says he was a Super Saiyan 2, but I think Daizenshuu 2 says he wasn't. Gohan also didn't have the lightning aura.

The scaling actually would make a lot of sense if Gohan was SS2. Dabura was said to be as strong as Cell, and Goku later said he was tougher than he first believed due to his magic, while Cell Saga Gohan was superior to Cell with his power halved.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Also, it makes Buu really, really close in power to SS2 Buu Saga Goku, whereas Innocent Buu alone was portrayed as superior to SS2 Vegeta while fighting Kid Buu

Tbf Vegeta was only confirmed to be stronger than Cell Games Gohan when Majin.

Plus I did note that the form would be without Boo's rage amps, where most of his higher level power comes from and one of the major reasons why Super Boo was so much stronger.

 

[DivineAura44]

Daizenshuu 7 says he was a Super Saiyan 2, but I think Daizenshuu 2 says he wasn't. Gohan also didn't have the lightning aura.

The scaling actually would make a lot of sense if Gohan was SS2. Dabura was said to be as strong as Cell, and Goku later said he was tougher than he first believed due to his magic, while Cell Saga Gohan was superior to Cell with his power halved.

The scaling would make less sense if he was SSJ2, it would contradict the SSJ3. Also Daizenshuu 7 was more recent so you should take proof from that. Not the "outdated" one.