Godzillas Downgrade

[Axxtentacle]

It's straightforward, but not the way you think it is. Calm down.

It says he has the characteristics of the nuke, aka, the atomic breath and the radiation that comes off of his body. It does say he's equal to a nuclear bomb, but it says he has the characteristics of a nuclear bomb, not the power of one.

 

[Wokistan]

While I'm around I may as well provide my own interpretation of the quote I guess.

"If Godzilla had been a dinosaur or some other animal, he would have been killed by just one cannonball. But if he were equal to an atomic bomb, we wouldn't know what to do. So, I took the characteristics of an atomic bomb and applied them to Godzilla."

When he talks about an atomic bomb, he talks about how it represents an unprecedented threat that we have no response for. This is (mostly, since missile defense systems are limited by nuclear treaties) how it works in the real world. You can build really bulky warships to withstand all sorts of conventional arms, but even bunkers built into mountains aren't designed to withstand a direct hit from a nuclear bomb. There's no direct counter to a nuke except having them yourself and being able to use that leverage to ensure nobody wants to actually use them. To me this sort of idea of a problem that's completely beyond conventional context is what he's saying he's trying to apply to godzilla. It doesn't say anything about him being able to punch with nuke power or that his breath can vaporize a city, it says he would be a problem that nobody knew how to respond to.

Furthermore, we should note how he only says he took the characteristics of a bomb, and not "godzilla is as strong as a nuclear bomb." There are tons of characteristics besides just straight up blast yield, and this further supports that it's less a literal statement of power and more that godzilla's a similar outside context problem.

Also why would this mean anything at all without feats lol we throw out author intent all the time

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

Also why would this mean anything at all without feats lol we throw out author intent all the time

So all those things posted prior got ignored. Fantastic.
Author intent was only one out of 5 pieces of evidence I cited, others included the film saying verbatim the monster survived a nuclear detonation in its habitat (which drove it out into the surface), a book quite literally showing the nuclear explosion flash by and then Godzilla attacking the ship from the start of the film, books written about Godzilla's history and anatomy saying very explicitly hitting Godzilla with nuclear missiles is useless and that a nuclear detonation in immediate vicinity would also do nothing.
This is 1/5 things at most that is up to interpretation and even then, this whole case about 'well there's characteristics besides strength' in context is not a debunk.
Let's talk about them, shall we?
Radioactive presence, check. Leaves nuclear fallout? Check. Leaves a city devastated? Check. Burns and shatters everything it touches? Check. These other boxes are checked, so why then does it follow that he wouldn't be as powerful as a nuclear bomb, especially following the fact it talks about dealing with the threat as well? There is no direct counter to a nuclear bomb in real life, certainly not back in the 1950s. The phrase "if he were equal to an atomic bomb, we wouldn't know what to do" makes this clear. He's an atom bomb on legs.
So even pretending the other interpretations are more valid, it doesn't debunk mine at all and it's quite simply the lowest hanging fruit you can pick at to not accept the pretty blatant stuff.

 

[Wokistan]

Okay, but I never claimed to be talking about any of the other shit. I was responding specifically to the quote, since that's what the contention is over. The quote itself isn't usable regardless of whether or not other stuff is. However, since you continue to respond to my analysis of the quote, I shall again be responding in the context of that quote only. Got other feats? Cool, use those instead, that is not what I'm talking about rn.

" These other boxes are checked, so why then does it follow that he wouldn't be as powerful as a nuclear bomb, especially following the fact it talks about dealing with the threat as well?"

A lack of showings on that level.

"There is no direct counter to a nuclear bomb in real life, certainly not back in the 1950s."

I'm not sure why this is here, that's agreeing with what I said.

"The phrase "if he were equal to an atomic bomb, we wouldn't know what to do" makes this clear. He's an atom bomb on legs."

Please type a detailed breakdown of how this sentence irrefutably means "Godzilla is as physically powerful as a nuke"


I'd just focus your efforts on somewhere other than some quote on how the concept of godzilla came to be. You'll end up with a stronger argument, most likely.


Now, if we are to assume the other nuke tanking feats brought up are valid, why are they scaling to his AP?

 

[Tllmbrg]

So all those things posted prior got ignored. Fantastic.
Author intent was only one out of 5 pieces of evidence I cited, others included the film saying verbatim the monster survived a nuclear detonation in its habitat (which drove it out into the surface), a book quite literally showing the nuclear explosion flash by and then Godzilla attacking the ship from the start of the film, books written about Godzilla's history and anatomy saying very explicitly hitting Godzilla with nuclear missiles is useless and that a nuclear detonation in immediate vicinity would also do nothing.
This is 1/5 things at most that is up to interpretation and even then, this whole case about 'well there's characteristics besides strength' in context is not a debunk.
Let's talk about them, shall we?
Radioactive presence, check. Leaves nuclear fallout? Check. Leaves a city devastated? Check. Burns and shatters everything it touches? Check. These other boxes are checked, so why then does it follow that he wouldn't be as powerful as a nuclear bomb, especially following the fact it talks about dealing with the threat as well? There is no direct counter to a nuclear bomb in real life, certainly not back in the 1950s. The phrase "if he were equal to an atomic bomb, we wouldn't know what to do" makes this clear. He's an atom bomb on legs.
So even pretending the other interpretations are more valid, it doesn't debunk mine at all and it's quite simply the lowest hanging fruit you can pick at to not accept the pretty blatant stuff.

Wait actually what are even the sources you use for all this scans?
Like one scan has Godzilla be able to tank a hydrogen bomb when they weren't public knowledge in the 50s so is that like a guide written way later?

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

Wait actually what are even the sources you use for all this scans?
Like one scan has Godzilla be able to tank a hydrogen bomb when they weren't a thing in the 50s so is that like a guide written way later?

Yeah, it was a book written in the mid 90s detailing things like anatomy, history, bios for the characters, etc. Don't see why that matters. Doesn't contradict anything.

 

[Antvasima]

Mr. Bambu's evaluations seemed to make sense to me.

Also, thank you to everybody who are helping out.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Yeah, it was a book written in the mid 90s detailing things like anatomy, history, bios for the characters, etc. Don't see why that matters. Doesn't contradict anything.

How is it called?

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

Now, if we are to assume the other nuke tanking feats brought up are valid, why are they scaling to his AP?

Looping back and forth on one bit of semantics, and the thing I literally included as an 'also' point, just as an extra, quite literally is a waste of time. I already went over better evidence but this guy's just staying on this one minor point.

I didn't claim they scale to AP, they scale to durability. He has a Low/mid 7-B calc already accepted for his radioactive breath. Low 7-B heat being spit out of your mouth but 8-C durability is stupid and that was the whole point.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

How is it called?

Here's the book-An Introduction to Godzilla

 

[Wokistan]

"Looping back and forth on one bit of semantics, and the thing I literally included as an 'also' point, just as an extra, quite literally is a waste of time. I already went over better evidence but this guy's just staying on this one minor point."

So we agree then

"I didn't claim they scale to AP, they scale to durability. He has a Low/mid 7-B calc already accepted for his radioactive breath. Low 7-B heat being spit out of your mouth but 8-C durability is stupid and that was the whole point."

So would your proposal be this:

8-C (or whatever) physical AP

Low 7-B atomic breath

Whatever tier the nuke is physical dura

Low 7-B heat resist

 

[Tllmbrg]

Here's the book-An Introduction to Godzilla

How does the stuff here apply to the OG Godzilla in particular...
This seems like a general Godzilla Guide, which imo we shouldn't use unless the Godzilla in question is featless

 

[Wokistan]

They seem to say the era in the scans pretty frequently though

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

So would your proposal be this:

8-C (or whatever) physical AP

Low 7-B atomic breath

Whatever tier the nuke is physical dura

Low 7-B heat resist

Yeah this is fine.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Btw should he not get a weakness to cold of this?

 

[Axxtentacle]

Btw should he not get a weakness to cold of this?

I wouldn't say that. He has atomic breath that burns shit, and that comes from inside his body. I think that's sufficient proof that he shouldn't have that generic reptile weakness.

 

[Wokistan]

He's also fine in the bottom of the ocean and what you posted kinda applies to all living creatures.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Okay wait a minute I just discovered that one of the scans you've provided is extremely out of context, particularly this:


As explained here Godzilla was underwater in a cave when that happened and not only were his other kin dead from this he also hurt from this, when the yield due to the distance from the explosion would be far less then 7-C

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

As explained here Godzilla was underwater in a cave when that happened and not only were his other kin dead from this he also hurt from this, when the yield due to the distance from the explosion would be far less then 7-C

So they live in underwater caves, but the depiction clearly shows him being outside the cave when it happens for one, two you're assuming the blast for some reason stopped moving when the flash is seen, and three him surviving is still a durability feat.
Not to mention, constantly vaguely saying it's weaker when again, no proof of this not being where the bomb detonated, nor any reason to assume otherwise when the same book LITERALLY says that nuclear warheads/atomic bombs/hydrogen bombs don't do anything to him.

Assuming it's out of context because he lives in a cave is pretty dumb. That's just actually silly.

Edit: Explosion was stated to be nearby anyway, so any drop in energy would be minimal anyway.

 

[Tllmbrg]

So they live in underwater caves, but the depiction clearly shows him being outside the cave when it happens for one, two you're assuming the blast for some reason stopped moving when the flash is seen, and three him surviving is still a durability feat.
Not to mention, constantly vaguely saying it's weaker when again, no proof of this not being where the bomb detonated, nor any reason to assume otherwise when the same book LITERALLY says that nuclear warheads/atomic bombs/hydrogen bombs don't do anything to him.

"Driven out of his cave, an injured Godzilla ascends to a boat travelling by."
A direct quote from the page, so please don't act like he actually tanked anything impressive here since not only would the cave take in force for him but since they were nearby the coral reef but I assume not smack next to it there's distance to account for which lowers this feat dramatically to probably tier 8
So this feat is ti be discarded, I'd recommend focusing on the remaining 2

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Tllmbrg.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

"Driven out of his cave, an injured Godzilla ascends to a boat travelling by."
A direct quote from the page, so please don't act like he actually tanked anything impressive here since not only would the cave take in force for him but since they were nearby the coral reef but I assume not smack next to it there's distance to account for which lowers this feat dramatically to probably tier 8
So this feat is ti be discarded, I'd recommend focusing on the remaining 2

Please don't do this same stupid song and dance again. If the reef was NEARBY, then it wasn't miles away or anything of the sort. The cave would offer little to no protection, given the fact water would be vaporized and rock blown to dust by an explosion like that or even lesser. Tier 8 off what? A random assumption?
No, the feat stays.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

Thank you for helping out Tllmbrg.

I'm just saying, thanking the person who opened this downgrade thread doesn't make sense. Of course he should be on his own thread.
Especially when almost all of the OP's points were factually incorrect.

 

[Antvasima]

Tllmbrg is helping out a lot in the wiki, so I am just trying to be polite.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

That's fair.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Please don't do this same stupid song and dance again. If the reef was NEARBY, then it wasn't miles away or anything of the sort. The cave would offer little to no protection, given the fact water would be vaporized and rock blown to dust by an explosion like that or even lesser. Tier 8 off what? A random assumption?
No, the feat stays.

You do understand nearby does not mean smack to the face of it right?
It implies that the reef and Godzilla's cave are a distance apart, which again heavily effects this feat and likely lowers it to tier 8 because the strongest weapon in that era was 10.2 megatons, and without further info we can't assume they were testing that so it should be much lower
So again I repeat this feat is an anti feat for tier 7 Godzilla, please focus on using the other 2 remaining feats which are far better

 

[Axxtentacle]

Strongest weapon of that era was 25 megatons. The average weapon in those times were in the low megatons area.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Ah my bad, either way we should assume this was one of those low megatons weapons

 

[Armorchompy]

Making the highest assumptions for a feat is wrong anyway, even if there was a possibility of a point-blank or close range impact it shouldn't be the default assumption, nearby is too vague.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Yeah, high possible would be 25 megatons, which is just dishonest. I would go for the average, the explosion in the image isn't extremely far away cause the curves in the explosion rays are pretty easily visible.

A high tier 8/low tier 7 feat sounds good to me. I'd suggest posting your other feats like that to see if it's consistent.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

Considering the historical context, I would suggest using the 14-15 megaton Castle Bravo bomb, as that was the explosion directly responsible for the film. Makes the most sense to me anyway.

The other feats were already posted but sure.
The book thing is supported in the film, and said again.
Godzilla's skin is so durable it survived a hydrogen bomb explosion in the immediate vicinity which would absolutely reduce any amount of the energy dying down over a distance. So this would definitely be a Tier 7 feat.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I mean, that's stronger than what you were arguing earlier at least.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

and said again.

This one is Tier 7

 

[Axxtentacle]

I can see lower in tier 7, but I don't see 7-B personally. He's not shown in the epicenter of the blast, though he doesn't seem too far away either.

 

[Antvasima]

Axxtentacly and Tllmbrg:

So what are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Tllmbrg]

I still don’t get what this’s suppose to prove, it’s just saying a nuclear experiment happened near his home, it’s so vague it can’t be used to support anything
So far we have one ant feat for tier 7 Godzilla that would have him at high 8, and 2 that just give him tier 7 durability
For attack power I see no reason to scale breath to physicals so until more proof is shown Godzilla will likely just be High 8-C+ from casually destroying buildings ig, since 8-B/8-A is a bit of a leap without calcs imo
Axx can post his own thoughts

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluations.

 

[Axxtentacle]

To me, it looks like Godzilla has a bunch of consistent high tier 8 & low tier 7 feats. I wouldn't say he scales to 7-B, but "likely at least 8-A, possibly 7-C" looks reasonable, though someone could change the wording. I don't think they would be outliers, as he has casual high 8-C feats.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

He's not shown in the epicenter of the blast, though he doesn't seem too far away either

To me, it looks like Godzilla has a bunch of consistent high tier 8 & low tier 7 feats. I wouldn't say he scales to 7-B, but "likely at least 8-A, possibly 7-C" looks reasonable, though someone could change the wording. I don't think they would be outliers, as he has casual high 8-C feats.

Agree

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

The can survive nukes scan is a solid proof for tier 7 durability.