Immeasurable Speed Sonic, time to PERISH

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

We already explained why acausality (among other things) isn't what allowed the super trio to fight, react to and beat Solaris.

Either way, if my stance wasn't clear already I vehemently disagree with the downgrade (especially since it came out of left field too) that said my input at this point is of little concern now.

All I can say is Greenshifter and Theuser make the most sense from my PoV.

Also some fabulous artwork to brighten the mood would likely be much appreciated.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

^I vouch for this.

**** the crt, I wanna see the drawings.

******* mood lol

 

[Theuser789]

Future Sonic getting hit also wouldn't be an issue tbh; if there's more than one future sonic based in timeline shenanigans.

Literally headcanon, there's no reason to assume multiple versions of Sonic are fighting Solaris other than to argue against immesurable

 

[Duedate8898]

Your argument only works if you assume that Sonic only exists in the present, because past Sonic would still be in the attack's range and therefore Sonic would still get hit because the attack would always hit past Sonic because the attack exists in all of time, going to the left wouldn't work. Greenshifter can probably explain this with his drawings™

So I actually see your point here, and with that I say that I was wrong. If Solaris attacks are omnipresent throughout all of time then yes, Sonic would still take the hit of Solaris' attacks even after dodging.

However, that doesn't mean immeasurable is correct. Because even if sonic was immeasurable, if his past self was in that spot before hand, he'd still get hit. Unless immeasurability automatically makes you acasual you wouldn't be able to avoid getting damaged by this type of attack.

 

[Theuser789]

So I actually see your point here, and with that I say that I was wrong. If Solaris attacks are omnipresent throughout all of time then yes, Sonic would still take the hit of Solaris' attacks even after dodging.

However, that doesn't mean immeasurable is correct. Because even if sonic was immeasurable, if his past self was in that spot before hand, he'd still get hit. Unless immeasurability automatically makes you acasual you wouldn't be able to avoid getting damaged by this type of attack.

Greenshifter explained it in one of his posts that being immesurable would make him fast enough while meontining casuality and what you are saying, re-read his posts for better explanations since it's there my dude

However immesurable means you are faster than time, meaning that Sonic would be able to dodge attacks no matter when they are since time wouldn't matter to him, but please re-read his posts because he explains that

 

[Theuser789]

To add Shadow doesn't have acasuality, and I still stand that adding it doesn't make sense based on the narrative

 

[Duedate8898]

And I'm saying that no amount of speed stops you from getting hit if something is omnipresent in the vein that Solaris's attacks are apparently believed to be. If anyones past self was in that spot, if the attack is omnipresent throughout all of time then they can't avoid the hit, unless they somehow move their past self out of the way so they were never there to begin with.

 

[ElixirBlue]

So, giving Acausality to Super Forms based on assumptions is wrong because the existence of Classic Sonic?

Yep, that would be contradictory.

And I'm saying that no amount of speed stops you from getting hit if something is omnipresent in the vein that Solaris's attacks are apparently believed to be.

That’s why the speed can’t be measured and why the rating exists. Forget the attacks, Sonic also sees Solaris’ arms(Solaris, a character even staff agrees is temporally omnipresent) is moving at relative speed as the Hedgehogs.

 

[Theuser789]

If anyones past self was in that spot, if the attack is omnipresent throughout all of time then they can't avoid the hit, unless they somehow move their past self out of the way so they were never there to begin with.

Immesurable speed literally does tho, you are moving so fast that time doesn't matter, you can literally move your past to the future via movement

 

[Rikimarox2]

And I'm saying that no amount of speed stops you from getting hit if something is omnipresent in the vein that Solaris's attacks are apparently believed to be. If anyones past self was in that spot, if the attack is omnipresent throughout all of time then they can't avoid the hit, unless they somehow move their past self out of the way so they were never there to begin with.

I mean, that's literally the definition of Immeasurable speed, no?

An immeasurable speed character can hop into the past or the future just as easily as we roll our eyes.

 

[Theuser789]

Before I go for a couple hours, this are the main possibilities I see this thread being concluded

1: Immesurable is removed and the trio gets type 2 acasuality, since it would make temporal attacks useless and finite speed would easily be able to dodge it

2: No new abilities are added and immesurable is kept for the reasons argued in favor

I don't agree with 1, but just posting this here because these are the only ways I can see the thread being concluded

 

[Duedate8898]

I mean, that's literally the definition of Immeasurable speed, no?

An immeasurable speed character can hop into the past or the future just as easily as we roll our eyes.

No it isn't.
Because even if you are immeasurable, you can still have a past and future.
All immeasurable, at least from what I saw in those threads and checking the page for speed now, does is allow you to react to and avoid things after they've already struck. Which is not at all illustrated in the fight with Solaris at all. And they're also not moving through time with sheer speed alone or anything like that. Neither them nor Solaris is showing anything that depicts immeasurable speed.

 

[Duedate8898]

Temporal omnipresence doesn't equal multiple dimensions of time.

 

[Duedate8898]

I'm just going off what the page and what I remember of the threads.

So, where is Solaris occupying multiple temporal dimensions? Especially because, as illogical as it is, he was defeated by people battling him linearly.

Or, after that, where are Sonic and the rest reacting to attacks after they've already landed, or just anything else that seems to define immeasurable speed?

Because I see evidence for none of this:

Immeasurable speed characters are far beyond even those Infinite speed characters listed above. They perceive infinite speed characters as completely frozen, and they can travel forward and backward in time at will. They have to speed necessary to hop from the beginning of time, to the end of time, and anywhere in between as casually as a human being can roll their eyes left or right. This also means their reaction time is faster than instantaneous. They can dodge an attack that already has been struck, and they can strike someone even before they launched an attack. And they can do all of this via sheer speed.

or what you quoted above.

 

[Duedate8898]

When did they dodge an attack that was already struck? Because the gameplay I say, showed Silver getting hit then nothing after that.,

And here's my scan right here:


They point attacking in the past, present and future. Which would only involve a single timeline, and the past, present, and future of it. They mention nothing of multiple temporal dimensions. Just a single one.

What scan do you have that supports Solaris existing across multiple timelines at once?

 

[Duedate8898]

I could answer(about multiple timelines?), but it’s derailment. Even existing throughout all the time in one timeline as omnipresent, characters that fight it that aren’t omnipresent throughout all of time has to have immeasurable speed in order to not get blitzed. (I sense a “w-what?” coming :/)

No, you don't. Because omnipresence through all of time, doesn't give you any speed. And once again, his attacks aren't shown to act in a manner that implies immeasurability so you're wrong on that.

What is the definition of “can”? Is it an absolute? Is there an option? What could it be?

Is that the only requirement for a immeasurable speed listed on the wiki? That you have to dodge an attack that already hit you in order to have immeasurable speed?

Spoiler

(Considering how Silver is still fine after getting “hit”, that might be it)

What? ... OK, @DarkDragonMedeus @AKM sama , you mind don’t mind if I start downgrading verses using this thread, would you?

Silver being fine after taking a hit isn't at all justification. Especially because as it stands now, Silver scales to Solaris so tanking a hit says nothing.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I really don't want to keep repeating myself, but Duedate is pretty much right. Dodging an attack that has Temporal omnipresence is simply Acausality Type 1 and not Immeasurable speed. A character that as the latter but not the former would be unable to evade the attack even if the attack had finite speed due to it attacking their past self. Where as the former has not past self thus is safe and just needs to simply dodge the attack normally.

 

[Causalist]

Is this still not over? Damn. Sonic has other immeasurable speed feats aside from Solaris scaling y'know? In and out of Super form. They're just way more consistant for Super

 

[Duedate8898]

If those exist, then they should be provided here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm also curious, but I think I kinda know what's going to be brought up.

 

[Greenshifter]

Sigh, I warned y’all. Drawings it is (fml).

 

[Theuser789]

Why is a staff member allowed to make several posts in a row but when a regular member does it they get called out? SMH

Anyways Solaris was destroying all existing timelines, they were being fused together in one, thereforehe doesn't need to exist in multiple when all the others were destroyed, it's that simple, immesurable speed allows you to strike after an attack has been struck, dodging an attack that would hit your past is the definition of dodging an attack that already struck you, your argument Dude is just state stuff out of a lack of knoweledge on what he is even stating

And they're also not moving through time with sheer speed alone or anything like that.

They literally are, they need to hit Solaris in all points of time to destroy him, they are flying to different points in time to kill him, this is what I am talking about in my previous point

God the arguments against immesurable aren't even consistent anymore in this thread, they keep changing and being different between staff members, people are arguing against immesurable as a concept but not in favor of a logical explanation which is why they are clearly inconsistant and changing

Solaris is a lifeform that exists in all of time, his attacks also exist in all of time, the hedgehogs necessaraly have to travel through time to defeat him, all timelines are being destroyed, where Sonic and Co is the last save spot, Solaris temporal attacks would necessaraly hit the future and past version of the opponent, immesurable speed allows you to dodge attacks that alraedy hit you, ergo Sonic would be able to dodge temporal attacks

Solaris does not attack in only certain time periods like AKM argued, there are no other timelines to exist like Dude is arguing (which just arguing from ignorance btw, I keep saying to just read the other's posts but for some reason he doesn't want to there's a summary literally last page) and Solaris would not be hitting a different timeline Sonic in the future because there are no other timelines

It's either type 2 acasuality (type 1 only involves the past and your side is literally arguing Solaris only exists in one timeline, therefore Solaris would just hit the future self of Sonic in that timeline and not another one, you cannot just ignore the future because you know type 2 would be incorrect)

Or immesurable, which allows you to dodge attacks that already struck you (your past self) or will struck you

Now please, can we have one consistant argument that isn't just taking the lowest interpretation as fact just because it's the lowest because low must be always right?

 

[Greenshifter]

they need to hit Solaris in all points of time to destroy him, they are flying to different points in time to kill him

I’m just gonna nitpick this part. They do need the temporal AoE to defeat Solaris, just physically moving to every point in time is very impractical and pretty much impossible against a Solaris that can keep up with them.

 

[Theuser789]

True, but even assuming each character is doesn't move at all Shadow and Silver still moved from the present to their time periods with speed only, debunking Dude's point

 

[Arcker123]

what's the argument here

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

what's the argument here

What side?

 

[Arcker123]

both i guess

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

Some guys want Immeasurable speed Sonic the Hedgehog and some others don't so they are using logic and intelligence to debate each other with the guys who want Immeasurable currently successing

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

Immeasurable is only for Super Sonic btw

 

[Duedate8898]

True, but even assuming each character is doesn't move at all Shadow and Silver still moved from the present to their time periods with speed only, debunking Dude's point

I'm sorry but is Chaos Control not an ability that all three hedgehogs have that allows them to travel through time? Because that very much looks like the more plausible explanation.

Why is a staff member allowed to make several posts in a row but when a regular member does it they get called out? SMH

Anyways Solaris was destroying all existing timelines, they were being fused together in one, thereforehe doesn't need to exist in multiple when all the others were destroyed, it's that simple, immesurable speed allows you to strike after an attack has been struck, dodging an attack that would hit your past is the definition of dodging an attack that already struck you, your argument Dude is just state stuff out of a lack of knoweledge on what he is even stating


They literally are, they need to hit Solaris in all points of time to destroy him, they are flying to different points in time to kill him, this is what I am talking about in my previous point

God the arguments against immesurable aren't even consistent anymore in this thread, they keep changing and being different between staff members, people are arguing against immesurable as a concept but not in favor of a logical explanation which is why they are clearly inconsistant and changing

Solaris is a lifeform that exists in all of time, his attacks also exist in all of time, the hedgehogs necessaraly have to travel through time to defeat him, all timelines are being destroyed, where Sonic and Co is the last save spot, Solaris temporal attacks would necessaraly hit the future and past version of the opponent, immesurable speed allows you to dodge attacks that alraedy hit you, ergo Sonic would be able to dodge temporal attacks

Solaris does not attack in only certain time periods like AKM argued, there are no other timelines to exist like Dude is arguing (which just arguing from ignorance btw, I keep saying to just read the other's posts but for some reason he doesn't want to there's a summary literally last page) and Solaris would not be hitting a different timeline Sonic in the future because there are no other timelines

It's either type 2 acasuality (type 1 only involves the past and your side is literally arguing Solaris only exists in one timeline, therefore Solaris would just hit the future self of Sonic in that timeline and not another one, you cannot just ignore the future because you know type 2 would be incorrect.)

And on this bit here, I admitted that I was wrong earlier. My argument about temporal omnipresence was wrong and I understood what was being said, that doesn't mean I can't still find fault with the argument that is presented when I personally realize new things.

So I'm going to say it like this, I've read the post and I still think that immeasurablility has not been presented. Because, Sonic and Silver only went to one point in the past and present and are not demonstrates traveling to anymore. If there is no multiple timelines for Solaris to be in, then he's not existing in multiple temporal dimensions so that point is also moot. Sonic and the other two are never shown getting hit in the past and then dodging the attack afterwards, if they get hit the damage to their lives still remains. No new information on why these characters should be immeasurable has come to light, so I shall maintain that they are not. Since at this point the argument is circular, I will not be posting again till either it concludes or something new had to be said

 

[ElixirBlue]

Why is a staff member allowed to make several posts in a row but when a regular member does it they get called out? SMH

He was responding to me. I deleted all my posts last night cause... well, it not an excuse but I haven't been sleeping well this past week. Tends to happen when I don't take care of myself. And after being awake for 17 hours and being on debating threads, I had a mental crash. My apologize.

 

[Greenshifter]

All right my drawing is finished. Now the point of this drawing is that light blue Sonic over here in the present gets hit by that meteor no matter what. I could have made it differently so that the OG meteor doesn't hit past Sonic or whatever and it wouldn't have mattered, since those dark blue meteors that exists due to Solaris' temporal omnipresence extending to his attacks are undodgeable for someone with finite speed. Even acausality type 2 doesn't help. Meanwhile an immeasurable speed being would be able to blitz Solaris before any version of him even fires the green meteor due to being faster than causality itself.

 

[Theuser789]

I'm sorry but is Chaos Control not an ability that all three hedgehogs have that allows them to travel through time? Because that very much looks like the more plausible explanation.

This is an argument from ignorance, because it's literally show in the game Chaos Control time travel works by creating a portal, therefore this would be straight up incorrect

About your second paragraph you are straight up not understading what is being argued in the favor side, Sonic and company are constantly travelling in time during the fight because they need to hit him in all time periods and I still don't understand your obssesion with temporal dimensions if that was never an argument

Solaris attacks being temporal onmipresent means that a finite speed character would always be hit by it, Sonic not being hit is proof of immesurable, you are literally not understading how this works

There's no circular debating, we argued for two posts, but hopefully Greenshifter's post makes you understand better

 

[Greenshifter]

He was responding to me. I deleted all my posts last night cause... well, it not an excuse but I haven't been sleeping well this past week. Tends to happen when I don't take care of myself. And after being awake for 17 hours and being on debating threads, I had a mental crash. My apologize.

Bro, don't overdo yourself. It's fine, we got this.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

All right my drawing is finished. Now the point of this drawing is that light blue Sonic over here in the present gets hit by that meteor no matter what. I could have made it differently so that the OG meteor doesn't hit past Sonic or whatever and it wouldn't have mattered, since those dark blue meteors that exists due to Solaris' temporal omnipresence extending to his attacks are undodgeable for someone with finite speed. Even acausality type 2 doesn't help. Meanwhile an immeasurable speed being would be able to blitz Solaris before any version of him even fires the green meteor due to being faster than causality itself.

So if I understand this correctly, since the meteor is temporally omnipresent, it'll appear everywhere, so no matter when Sonic is, so Sonic with finite speed would literally not be able to dodge the meteor

 

[Duedate8898]

All right my drawing is finished. Now the point of this drawing is that light blue Sonic over here in the present gets hit by that meteor no matter what. I could have made it differently so that the OG meteor doesn't hit past Sonic or whatever and it wouldn't have mattered, since those dark blue meteors that exists due to Solaris' temporal omnipresence extending to his attacks are undodgeable for someone with finite speed. Even acausality type 2 doesn't help. Meanwhile an immeasurable speed being would be able to blitz Solaris before any version of him even fires the green meteor due to being faster than causality itself.

What're you showing only works if the meteor is also spatially omnipresent.

With temporal omnipresence that just means the entire path that the meteor travels will always be filled with that meteor at some point in time. And if Sonic or the others occupy any of those points in time, then they get hit. It's as simple as that. Immeasurability doesn't stop your past self from being hit.

Also, they never blitz solaris before he fires any of the meteors. So no.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Gilad Well not everywhere in space. I only drew it in 2D, the meteor would basically be a cylinder in 3D. But it's undodgeable since the meteor is aimed in Sonic's direction and instantly appears on his place, since as you can see on my drawing only the green meteors have a speed (dx/dt), the blue ones just appear due to temporal omnipresence (you can't say which blue meteor appeared "first" in the present since they all appear in a single moment of time, meaning by definition there is no first)

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Going to disagree with removing immeasurable speed for the hedgehogs. Read the thread, the side in favor of the downgrade appears to want to avoid the conclusion of the feat being immeasurable by throwing around any unsubstantiated claims they can come up with. In other words, mental gymnastics.

 

[Arcker123]

if this downgrade goes through will the hedgehogs get type 2 acasuality

 

[Greenshifter]

With temporal omnipresence that just means the entire path that the meteor travels will always be filled with that meteor at some point in time. And if Sonic or the others occupy any of those points in time, then they get hit. It's as simple as that. Immeasurability doesn't stop your past self from being hit.

The hedgehogs didn't exist on the battlefield before Solaris formed the rift so at the moment of the beginning of the fight they have no past and they stay in those moments due to immeasurable speed (or if they don't it doesn't matter since causality didn't even have time to register them being in that moment in the first place so it's not like their past versions would still be there since that would mean time passed), otherwise as you said, they'd get hit.

Also, they never blitz solaris before he fires any of the meteors. So no.

I'd say irrelevant since the only way to defeat him is being immeasurable, but in actuality Shadow calls it a "maybe fair fight" so Solaris scales to immeasurable speed and he himself blitzes his own blue meteors, meaning he can only use green meteors with immeasurable speed, which should be dodgeable for someone with immeasurable speed.