Baki Scaling Revision Thread

[BakiHanma18]

So it doesn't mean anything.

Well, yes and no. Yes, it doesn’t mean anything, but that’s the point. We shouldn’t be making convicts 7-C because they survived attacks from 7-Cs because it isn’t consistent. We shouldn’t make Retsu 7-C because he’s still struggling with possible 9-As in SoO after fighting Pickle, and he fought 3 other boxers that scale below Ali and Frazier without killing a single one, despite using basically a super move, the Musunkei, directly on one’s chin. If we go by the logic that 7-Cs in Baki would oneshot and gore those below and disregard consistency, Valev’s (the boxer) brains would be leaking out of his ears, but instead he’s just KO’d

 

[Amlad22]

@H13

You’re the only one here making things up. I don’t know if you just haven’t read Retsu vs Pickle in a while but I’ll gladly get links to the fight for you. Retsu did absolutely nothing to Pickle for the entire fight and it was shown that he was magnitudes below him. You being a Retsu fan and wanting him to be comparable to Pickle doesn’t change what actually happened in the story.

And again you take a single attack out of context to make yourself seem right. Even if I humour you and ignore the fact that Retsu only harmed Pickle with a counter that got himself KO’d, it would still be an outlier based on everything that happened in the fight along with the statements about how Retsu compares to Baki and Katsumi.

@DMUA

I was informed that there were issues with the calc. I guess there isn’t. Either way we’ve known for a while that it’s not the best calc to use which is why we are using the 8-B one. Anyone who can take attacks from casual Pickle and not die scale to 8-B with the new calc. So Retsu and Katsumi would both scale since although they can’t do shit to hurt Pickle, his casual attacks don’t Insta KO or kill them.

 

[Amlad22]

@BakiHanma18

I actually forgot to bring up Retsu’s boxing arc. It’s yet again more proof that Retsu is not 7-C. There was enough proof with just the Pickle feats though tbh.

 

[DMUA]

why we are using the 8-B one. Anyone who can take attacks from casual Pickle and not die scale to 8-B with the new calc.

First off what 8-B calc and

again

Pickle is 7-C. A casual attack would either be that tier, or utterly worthless if the one getting hit is clearly in a far lower tier.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I personally think Katsumi is better written but that entire thing is besides the point.

I've gone over Retsu vs Pickle multiple times tonight alone. While Retsu never drew blood until the end, he still caused bruises and was pushing Pickle back after taking his technique back.

Honestly, the entire boxing escapade is a huge example of Itegaki having to conjure improbably strong people from nowhere to create a challenge for the characters, and Smoke literally only exists to fight Retsu, so there's literally no problems here.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Except again, Joe Frazier is a notorious old rival of Muhammad Ali, and Ali even admits to having fought him before, meaning Joe would be comparable to 9-A Ali

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Here is a blatant feat of Retsu blocking Pickle on instinct.

If you actually tried a "Helicopter Punch" in real life, you'd realize the power in every hit is nothing compared to an actual trained punch. Of course it would do jack shit to Pickle.

 

[Amlad22]

^just gonna drop this here

@DMUA

Sorry I should have specified. The feat itself is Baki’s imaginary Yujiro causing a small earthquake that was 8-B+. Pickle comes into this bc when Baki tried to reimagine Pickle’s power (Baki had not seen Pickle’s full power at this point so it’s only the casual held back Pickle) he couldn’t do it. So that’s where Pickle comes into it. His causal attacks are still superior to 8-B+ attacks.

 

[Amlad22]

@Sir Ovens

Ok? You showed us Retsu blocking an attack from a very casual Pickle. That’s 8-B based on the feats and calc we have. What is it with everyone thinking that everyone in Baki fights with 120% strength no matter what? That’s just not the case.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

The level of 300 IQ gameplay on display here astounds me. Baki's imaginary opponents could have 3-A AP for all we know. The 8-B+ feat was physical. Nobody has any reason to scale to imaginary Baki fighters, period.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

If I imagine Mike Tyson to be outerversal, and he tosses my ass across the room and I break several walls in the process, does that make the real Mike Tyson outerversal? No, that just makes me wall level.

In the context of Yujiro tossing Baki, it just makes Baki 8-B+, nobody besides him has the right to scale to that without harming Baki himself.

 

[DMUA]

... Pretty sure Baki was still

you know

7-C, at that point

 

[Sir_Ovens]

My point exactly.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Why would anyone scale to the 8-B+ feat to begin with? Feels like a massively arbitrary way to find a value for the backscaling, when it could just be a lower level of 7-C compared to Pickle and co

 

[BakiHanma18]

If I imagine Mike Tyson to be outerversal, and he tosses my ass across the room and I break several walls in the process, does that make the real Mike Tyson outerversal? No, that just makes me wall level.

In the context of Yujiro tossing Baki, it just makes Baki 8-B+, nobody besides him has the right to scale to that without harming Baki himself.

The physical effect is the point. We’re scaling that physical effect, the feat, not imaginary Yujiro. Besides, we’ve already seen that Baki’s imagination is somewhat tied to AP, as he attempts to imagine them as accurately as possible, hence while he had difficulty recreating Pickle and why he was unsatisfied with the strength of his imagined Yujiro

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I will reiterate my points for the last time.

NO, I do not believe everyone scales to the god tiers directly.

Yes, I believe that they backscale, but within reasonable levels.

As a core principle, if a non-baseline character is harmed by a character canonically weaker than them, they would scale within the same tier, albeit a lower end.

 

[Tllmbrg]

The physical effect is the point. We’re scaling that physical effect, the feat, not imaginary Yujiro. Besides, we’ve already seen that Baki’s imagination is somewhat tied to AP, as he attempts to imagine them as accurately as possible, hence while he had difficulty recreating Pickle and why he was unsatisfied with the strength of his imagined Yujiro

So if Baki imagined him being universal would he be now universal?
Y'know how dumb this could be for scaling?
Heck how can he imagine dinosaurs which are comparable to Pickle then?

 

[BakiHanma18]

@Tllmbrg Again, no. That imagined Yujiro is 8-B, it’s literally his only feat. The point is that Baki can’t just imagine someone to be planetary and they’ll be that strong. That Yujiro wasn’t 100% accurate, so it hit at 8-B. The dinosaurs Baki imagined are featless and very likely don’t compare to their real life counterparts as he couldn’t even fully 100% accurately imagine Yujiro, much less Pickle or a dino.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yes but you do understand that the AP of the imaginary thing has 0 relation to the AP generated by Baki smashing into the wall because if we removed the delusion for a minute, Baki slammed himself into a wall and performed an 8-B+ feat. That's all.

 

[Tllmbrg]

@Tllmbrg Again, no. That imagined Yujiro is 8-B, it’s literally his only feat. The point is that Baki can’t just imagine someone to be planetary and they’ll be that strong. That Yujiro wasn’t 100% accurate, so it hit at 8-B. The dinosaurs Baki imagined are featless and very likely don’t compare to their real life counterparts as he couldn’t even fully 100% accurately imagine Yujiro, much less Pickle or a dino.

Are you arguing now Baki isn't comparable to them or what?
Plus as Oven said he's just slamming into a wall, plus how you even attribute this feat to the theoretical back scaling for other characters when its all in Baki's mind?

 

[BakiHanma18]

No, the imaginary Yujiro is causing the effect. It’s not new, we literally see Baki’s imaginary fighters physically affect the world in a way that would make it impossible for Baki to have done anything, such as when Baki fought the imaginary Retsu and Retsu beat him so badly, he bleed out all over the locker room. We also see this during the fight, with Baki being hit by nothing and Baki’s hand literally just slicing open. We see this again in Baki’s Prey Mantis fight. Baki’s imagination has been seen to affect his environment before. Besides, even if it were just Baki throwing himself against the wall, he still couldn’t even imagine Pickle’s body, implying that while a weak base Yujiro could be 8-B, 8-B wouldn’t even compare to a weak base Pickle according to Baki.

 

[Amlad22]

What is so hard to understand now? Baki causes an earthquake that generates 8-B+ power by imagining himself getting hit by an imaginary Yujiro. I’m honestly confused at what’s not going through?

Also even if the feat doesn’t go through the characters still wouldn’t be 7-C. Nothing changes the fact that they do not scale to 7-C or even Low 7-C for that matter. Base Baki is Low 7-C and he is astronomically above Retsu level characters by Retsu’s own admission.

 

[Tllmbrg]

No, the imaginary Yujiro is causing the effect. It’s not new, we literally see Baki’s imaginary fighters physically affect the world in a way that would make it impossible for Baki to have done anything, such as when Baki fought the imaginary Retsu and Retsu beat him so badly, he bleed out all over the locker room. We also see this during the fight, with Baki being hit by nothing and Baki’s hand literally just slicing open. We see this again in Baki’s Prey Mantis fight. Baki’s imagination has been seen to affect his environment before. Besides, even if it were just Baki throwing himself against the wall, he still couldn’t even imagine Pickle’s body, implying that while a weak base Yujiro could be 8-B, 8-B wouldn’t even compare to a weak base Pickle according to Baki.

No that implies he imagined a 8-B Yujiro, nothing related to scaling at all
At best you're arguing Baki should't scale to Pickle via this

 

[BakiHanma18]

@Tllmbrg It implies that the closest he could get to Yujiro’s rating was 8-B, and he doesn’t scale directly to Pickle. It’s said like 10 times during the Pickle vs Baki fight that Baki could literally only hold a candle to Pickle due to the skill gap. For the rest, refer to Amlad’s prior comment.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Also even if the feat doesn’t go through the characters still wouldn’t be 7-C. Nothing changes the fact that they do not scale to 7-C or even Low 7-C for that matter. Base Baki is Low 7-C and he is astronomically above Retsu level characters by Retsu’s own admission.

I have presented what I have presented, and if the majority disagrees, clearly something is flawed with that line of logic.

In-verse statements should not take precedent over what we clearly see to be consistent portrayals of scaling, especially if it doesn't come from the narrative. Plus, fiction tends to be very liberal with what they consider to be "astronomical" differences in power. I know characters who are stated far weaker than others, and yet show consistent feats of scaling to or above them.

 

[Amlad22]

Consistent? You’ve actually gone mad. I’ve gone into very clear detail on why nothing you’ve brought up is consistent. One singular showing does not overshadow multiple other showings along with statements and author intent. You’ll need a lot better than one showing taken out of context to get people like Retsu into 7-C when there’s mountains of evidence against it.

 

[Tllmbrg]

@Tllmbrg It implies that the closest he could get to Yujiro’s rating was 8-B, and he doesn’t scale directly to Pickle. It’s said like 10 times during the Pickle vs Baki fight that Baki could literally only hold a candle to Pickle due to the skill gap. For the rest, refer to Amlad’s prior comment.

If Baki and Co were 8-B fighting Pickle then they'd not even dent him, heck he'd one shot them all
Not like he can't tag them

 

[Amlad22]

@Tllmbrg

Most of them couldn’t dent him and he did one shot almost everyone once he stopped holding back even slightly.

 

[BakiHanma18]

@Tllmbrg As Amlad said, almost everyone got oneshot at one point or another, including Baki, however, Baki wouldn’t be an 8-B candidate, Baki would still already be 7-C from Oliva and Yujiro, he just doesn’t scale to Pickle, who scales above Yujiro base to base in raw strength

 

[BakiHanma18]

I have presented what I have presented, and if the majority disagrees, clearly something is flawed with that line of logic.

Isn’t that just an appeal to popularity fallacy?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Author intent died the moment Baki beat Oliva. It's a known fact that the moment a shiny new character appears, the previously "strong" characters become weak by comparison. Oliva has been reduced to a joke thanks to Nomi, and the slow power creep in the verse makes everyone fighting each other not work anymore unless you intentionally want to break scaling.

 

[Tllmbrg]

https://********.org/chapter/202653/4

Is that's not denting idk what's
He clearly scales to Pickle

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Isn’t that just an appeal to popularity fallacy?

Only if there is an actual flaw in what I'm presenting that isn't challenged verbatim by an argument that does not make sense given the scaling policies set in place by the wiki.

 

[BakiHanma18]

People disagreeing with something =/= it being wrong (though not discounting your argument as, it it didn’t have any validity, there’d be no debate, I just don’t agree scaling based off of what seems to be an outlier is accurate for the profile)

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Retsu fights Pickle and later Musashi. How this outlier? If we stopped treating Musashi like a glass cannon, it would be very consistent.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Retsu fights Pickle and later Musashi. How this outlier? If we stopped treating Musashi like a glass cannon, it would be very consistent.

As Amlad posted before, Retsu’s strongest attacks, as directly quoted from the manga, were doing nothing to Pickle, and then Pickle proceeded to oneshot him after actually trying

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yes, and I'm saying that Retsu should backscale to casual Pickle without dropping more than one tier below.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Yes, and I'm saying that Retsu should backscale to casual Pickle without dropping more than one tier below.

I’ve gotta hit the hay for today, I’ve got morning classes. I am interested in where you’d place casual Pickle to see how far apart we are and how we can come to a compromise or agreement.

(For anyone who may not be aware while reading this, the scale for 7-C is currently Transformed Pickle>=Demon Back Yujiro>Pickle>=Demon Back Baki>=Yujiro>Baki>Oliva= 3x baseline iirc)

 

[Amlad22]

Baki is consistently Low 7-C or higher so him harming Pickle is expected. Baki’s feats are the opposite of someone like Retsu’s. Retsu has everything pointing to scaling much lower than 7-C with one feat taken out of context that would put him at Low 7-C.

Baki on the other hand has all Low 7-C feats and 7-C with Demon Back with the only feat not in that area being his fight with Chiharu.

Just like how it’s clear Chiharu isn’t Low 7-C, it’s clear Retsu isn’t for the same reason. One feat doesn’t outdo everything else. That’s called an outlier.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Chiharu fought Baki once and couldn't hurt him even after he launched himself straight at Chiharu with his eyeballs wide open and did no damage.

Retsu blocked attacks from Pickle, staggered him, made him bleed with an all or nothing attack, and fought Musashi on more or less even grounds. If you stop treating Musashi as a glass cannon, which he clearly isn't, you will see the consistent scaling.

Baki suckerpunched Musashi and he lived. Hanayama beat up Musashi and he lived. Hanayama hit Retsu with an attack that was reflected back at him and survived. The argument of anti-feats falls flat when you realize that Musashi is literally the god tier and has no reason to not scale to higher feats logically.