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One Piece: Logia dispersion in versus match-ups

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CinCameron20

CinCameron20

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When having a logia devil-fruit user in a versus match-up, I still see a lot of conflict on their Regenerationn and how effective it is against a certain character from another verse.

Aokiji's Regenerationn
I'm going to discuss the regenerative ability of Logia users, and how effective it is in combat. Logia devil-fruit users are listed to have High-Mid Regenerationn, but only in their logia-form, which means that they are capable of reforming their bodies from being shattered, or dispersed into small fragments. An example of this is when Whitebeard sent a shock-wave through the air that shattered Aokiji's entire body into pieces, but Aokiji was unharmed by this due to his ice-body reforming from the damage. Normal physical strikes would be completely useless against Logia users, as they would simply be able to regenerate from being blown into bits.

The ways to circumvent a logia user's Regenerationn are actually quite simple. You'd have to attack them with an ability that they can not regenerate from (ex: Vaporization), or attack using an element that the logia user's body can not nullify (Monet's snow body being weak against heat-based attacks, or Ace's body being weak against heat that is superior to his own limit).

So if we were to place Monet against someone like Natsu Dragneel, Natsu would be able to harm Monet's actual body with his flame-based attacks.

I'd prefer input from staff who are knowledgeable with One Piece and the Versus rules in order to clear up the confusion in versus threads, and to correct me if I am wrong.
 
You're not wrong, but we have a type of intangibility dedicated to stuff like this called fluid intangibility. There are other characters with it. Suika Ibuki, Cryogonal, Morpha, etc. But yes, it is regen as well, though it can be as high as Mid-High rather than High-Mid, depending on how they regenerate.
 
Isn't it kind of a misnomer to say they have both intangibility and Regenerationn? I think on their case, both are included on their dispersion and reforming ability.
 
Wait doesn't Haki from someone more powerful then the logia users Haki allow you to affect them?
 
@The real cal howard - thank you for the input, and I see what you mean. The regen for logia users has only been shown up to High-Mid due to them only regenerating from attacks that would disperse their bodies into pieces, though I could be wrong, and there may be a Low-High feat somewhere.

-snipped-
 
@LordGriffin1000 - we're discussing in cross-verse match-ups, and haki isn't present here (though some people told me that verse equalization gives them haki, but I think that is wrong).
 
That's what I was referring to, if Verse equalization is on, stronger people would be able to harm them but you are right I'm derailing the thread, my apologies.

Anyway I think it's ok for them to have it.
 
@LordGriffin basically said was I was gonna ask. In Verse Equalization that means Magic = Haki / Chakra = Haki correct?
 
Don't necessarily think that verse equalization will mean that everyone who can use magic or chakra, could hurt logia's, i think you will need as cin said using an element that they can't nullify, but maybe other series have abilities similar to haki in how it functions, if that's the case, that should work on logia's.
 
@Celestial - i agree with this, unless the OP specifically states that the logia dispersion is turned off, because I can see the logia regen making fights incredibly one-sided or inconclusive against people of the same tier.

@The Staff - I am unsure what would qualify for Low-High Regenerationn, but I think Sabo has displayed such Regenerationn during Dressrosa. Is something like this higher than High-Mid Regenerationn, or am i mistaken by what I see?
 
That seems like High-Mid regen to me, he still had the lower half of his body, not exactly a small piece of him, a small piece would just be like a puddle od blood or to get graphic something like an ear or finger i think.
 
Verse equalisation means they can be hit.

Normal humans cannot see or sense Shinigamis in Bleach. Same thing here

They dont really regenerate either. They just disperse and reform
 
The way I see it, in verse equalization, in order for an opponent to hit a logia fighter, his attacks must be coated with energy similar to Haki, since in One Piece, haki is the energy that flows through all living beings in the world.

Haki is basically just like Ki/chi/chakra only those in one piece must learn to use it. Now magic could be argued depending on the verse as not being able to hit Logia as in several verses I've seen, normal energy and magic are considered distinct, now their are exceptions like Fairy tail where magic flows naturally and is the main source of energy for all characters so it would likely work on Logia.

It makes sense if characters who have energy based attacks or projectiles could harm a Logia type being as in verse anything with haki could negate that intangiblity(in fact ever since the introduction of haki, since most characters have haki, Logia dispersion had become a near nonexistent ability used in combat.)

So bottom line is the way I see it is. In a fight between a Logia character and another fictional character. If said fictional character does not attack with energy projectiles nor does he use energy to enchance his physical attacks, or have any natural elemental attacks to counter the element that the Logia user is made up of . Than Logia intangiblity would be able to work against him. Other wise it will be able to hit them.
 
@Celestial - okay, I was just not sure what that would be classified as.

@Grudge - I see, and I agree if that's the case.

Since the logia bodies would be circumvernted by such attacks, I do want to ask if shapeshifting (Or something else) should be added to logia users' profiles, as characters such as Charlotte katakuri and Aokiji have used their logia dispersion to create holes in their bodies to avoid being hit by haki-infused strike, or in the case of Katakuri and Akainu, change the shape and size of their limbs all together?

After this question is answered, I believe that this topic will be concluded.
 
@Celestial - I knew that I was going to bring up the wrong power. Then should we include that ability for Logia users?
 
Wait, just one question. Any user of Energy in general (like, a person with a laser gun, for example) can hurt a logia user here? Or is it just those with Mystical Energy (Free flowing Magic or Chi type shit) that has similar rules to Haki that works?
 
@Anexium well How big is the laser, a normal laser gun I'm pretty sure they can regenerate from. But like cin said if the blast is potent enough it could vaporize them. So for them to be hurt specially like their organs or just make them bleed in general yah mystical or more specific natural flowing energy would be needed.
 
@Grudge - i think he meant one producing energy in general being able to directly harm the user's body. If it's a vaporizing laser that takes out all of the body except a small piece, they are pretty much screwed, of course.
 
I also think that Grudgeman makes sense. However, the question is what we are going to do about the conclusion? It seems a bit excessive to write a specific versus thread rule for logia characters alone.
 
Also, it seems like we have problems deciding whether or not logias should be counted as having Regenerationn. There was a recent thread in which this was discussed as well.
 
Btw I've been meaning to ask people this, but should we note this that Logia users need to be aware and react of an attack in order to phase through things like attacks. Like they aren't always in Logia form and if caught off guard can actually get hurt still.
 
That seems like a noteworthy addition to their weakness sections, yes.
 
Not sure If that's exactly a weaknesses or not. Didn't Crocodile find a way around that by training himself to instantly turn into his logia form to avoid being assassinated?
 
It still a weakness imo, it's just a weakness that they can learn to work around, like a character with poor stamina can train to build said stamina but until he does so it's still a weakness.
 
Good point. So basically it seems like Logia users that have experience with their fruit can find away with said Weakness but inexperienced Logia users can't? Sabo being an example.

Also Smoker has Low-High regen in his profile. Should someone change that?
 
I changed Smoker's regen to High-Mid.

I don't know about logia users needing to be consciously aware of an attack to avoid it seeing as how the only time this type of scenario came up was when Smoker and Ace were hit by Luffy in a gag-scene. Has this happened on another occasion?
 
@Cin I voeive it was around chapter 158 or 170 it talks about it. However most experienced Logia users have somewhat overcame this weakness due to them honing their reflexes to be alert. Like Enel when he has mantra on etc etc. however it's still a weakness if for say an enemy can turn invisible or just is overall faster than the Logia user.
 
Uhm I'm sorry to bring this up since it appears to be a done topic but I sorta don't agree with grudge. I don't think haki can be equiparable to other energies (nen,chakra,chi or ki for example) by the way haki works and what it esentially is. Just by the get go, if we go with that definition we would have to add "energy manipulation" to every haki user and that doesn't sound quite right.

As it's defined, Haki can hurt devil fruit users because Haki is more of a force that deals with the characters spirits and not their bodies, for example, when Sanji could use Haki when he had swapped bodies with Nami.

The way Haki works is that it is a "force" that represents your "will" and you use it to overcome the enemie's own, to be more broad, Haki counts more as a softcore soul attack, It hurts the enemys real body TROUGH their soul/spirit, that is the reason why it hurts logia users, because it doesn't attack their elemental bodies, it attacks their spirit.

this is the reason why I think that verse equalization wouldnt work on logia dispersion. Haki is not actually comparable to other kinds of energy manipulation.

Now a list of abilities that bypass logia dispersion would be:

-Antimagic/power nullification (Asta's swords or Aizawa's quirk would work)

-Elemental manipulation (Natsu has shown to grab lighting and fire, he could punch other elemental beings)

-Vaporization (this is a case by case, you can vaporize the solid ones but I have a hard time imagining someone vaporizing kizarus light form) this one is probably the only form of energy manipulation I can actually think would work on logia users.

-Soul attacks and other conceptual attacks (Like that one fairy tail magic that has "hurts your enemy" as one of it's rules)

-Direct counters based on a rock-paper-scissors system
 
@Nedoiko pardon me but my definition of how Haki works is literally what the One piece Manga defined Haki. Don't believe me here's Silver Rayleigh explaining Haki when first properly introduced. "" "Haki" is a power that lies dormant in all the world's creatures... "Presence", "fighting spirit" and "intimidation"...

It is not different from the things that humans can naturally sense such as these... 'The act of not doubting'. That is strength!" ki and the like are defined as the manifestions of ones fighting spirit and energy, the difference is Haki (so far) hasn't shown any projectile like energy like for example DBZ, but for the most part ki can also be treated invisible as well to those who are not trained in it just like Haki.

Don't apply assumptions like "attacking ones souls" unless you have viable evidence stating it or Heavily implying. Haki like ki is a viable to everyone, it's just it needs to be trained in order to unlock it(much like how normal people can't use ki unless TRAINED in it.)
 
@Grudgeman1706 The thing is that youre going by Rayleights definition of it, And he may be an expert but this is pre to mid timeskip, when the concept is new and the reader shoulndt get confused by it, so it gets defined in simplistic ways. If you talk about assumptions then your argument has a big one too, you're assuming that "because logia users are affected by haki, it means it must be affected by other energy manipulation sources" when its actually the other way around, its "Because Haki can attack the real body of a logia user, it means that it can attack similar abilities as well", It would be like saying that "by virtue of having chakra, any character from naruto could have hurted Konan trought her paper form" when that wasn't the case. It's the Haki that can hurt logia users, it's not that the logia users are vulnerable to energy manipulation.

for proof lets have Robin's definition of haki, which is much later and clarifying than Rayleights basic one and comes in a page where luffy literaly GRABS a logia user, something that no other energy manipulation ever has shown to do:

https://i.gyazo.com/878d37f218f44eedbdbc56545c263ba8.jpg

then there's the fact Haki originates from the soul, as shown when Sanji can use haki while in Nami's body:

http://www5.mangafever.me/mangas/one_piece/one_piece_672/one_piece_672_10.jpg?v3
 
@Nedo the scan u show doesn't provide a definition for haki it just says that it allows the user to grab the "real body" of a logia user, a far cry from the "soft core soul manipulation" ur suggesting. And because Sanji uses haki in Namis body doesn't mean it's part of the soul, haki is learnt so a transfer of the mind also equates to a transfer of skill, knowledge and experience, Sanji can still use haki because it's part of his "knowledge" not necessarily because it's part of his soul.
 
@Nedo actually has somewhat of a point.

I do remember reading that Armament Haki is the physical manifestation of one's Soul / Will. So that technically would fall under Soul Manipulation correct? Even though it's very limited Soul Manipulation.
 
@Grudge and @Nedoiko - From what I understand, we're not flat out suggesting that an opponent would automatically have "haki", but energy-based attacks (produced from ki, chakra, etc, but not from a gun) would be capable of directly harming the logia user's body.

Physical attacks and the like would still be totally worthless in live combat, and I'd also like to mention that logia users can utilize their own haki in order to cancel out the attacks of other haki users. The most notable showing is when Akainu was struck by Vista and Marco, who he stated were using haki, yet he was still capable of using his logia-form. Another showing of this, but for a Paramecia user was when Luffy used his haki to protect himself from a haki infused attack from Doflamingo, while also maintaining his rubbery body while in Gear 4th. How would this come into play in a versus match-up?

Also, I'd like to point out that I believe that I've added Body Control for all of the Logia users, and if i missed any pages, someone should add it like how I placed it on Sabo's profile.

Also, I still don't buy the whole "the logia user must be fully aware" to turn into the element, and the thing that happened here was for humor, unless that's no excuse. I still can't find anything confirming this.
 
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