MGQ: Tiers and Speeds

So, I have some issues with the current verse pages. TBH, I'm against having a verse like this one on the site, but that's not for me to decide, and I can just ignore it. But if we are going to have pages, it's better for them be accurate.

As a disclaimer, I only played the games years ago with Paradox 1st Part more recently, but I definitely don't remember any feats past Tier 7, counting Erubetie's ultimate attack being an actual nuclear explosion created by using some of her body mass. And I distinctly remember the speed of sound in an attack being an apparent big deal when one of the ultimate chimeras, Amphisbaena, fights Erubetie. To be fair, neither are the fastest/strongest characters of their respective groups, but they are still able to fight those, so those cannot be too far away in terms of speed and power. (The Next Doll ultimate chimeras are comparable to the Four Heavenly Knights, who are comparable to Alice as they fought her for the Demon Lord Throne. Alice is comparable to Ilias, as the two had an inconclusive fight prior to the start of the first game. Both Alice and the Four Heavenly Knights are also comparable to Ilias in her Dark Goddess form as they are of significant help in the fight with her, with the Heavenly Knights tanking several blows for you and causing her actual damage like Alice does throughout the fight). The speeds given to Lime and Page 17 also seems suspicious because of this, as I don't remember any of those feats and no actual evidence of weak monsters like them doing so is presented on their pages or in the verse blog page.

But I could perfectly have forgotten some strong feats, so let's focus on the big issues here.

Lime

Lime is rated Town level for being able to fight early-game sealed Alice in Paradox. Now, the words of sealed Alice and sealed Ilias about their power should be taken with a grain of salt, as they are much, much weaker than before. Sealed Alice is of no help at all in the original trilogy for battles except for when she uses a spell that momentarily lets her regain her adult form for a single move per battle. When sealed Ilias tries to strike down Luka as he doubts her being his goddess, her bolt of retribution is completely harmless and only tickles early game, non-leveled, non-trained Luka, who at that point is only fighting slimes. The two fighting inside his inn fail to harm anything around them, simply pushing each other like children. While I'm not claiming they are weak, one shouldn't take their words at face value, given both are incredibly arrogant characters.

But this is secondary to the important thing here. Lime doesn't actually fight Alice or Ilias, she offers to join the party freely after you rescue her. Assuming her to be comparable to the mob slimes you fight in random encunters, yes, those slimes do hurt sealed Alice and Ilias. But that is clearly RPG mechanics, as far as I know we don't scale the mobs of an RPG to the protagonists just because they are able to harm them.

Page 17

Page 17, for those not knowledgeable in the verse, is a weak part 1 monster that is defeated by a barely trained Luka who hasn't got the first of the elementals (his biggest power ups). However, her page rates her as Universe level+, saying "Can manipulate and likely created her own personal universe inside the book, which has its own time flowing differently)".

Except the only thing we know about her "universe" is that it's inside the book she's possessing, she brings the humans she defeats into it and has a different flow of time. That's by definition a Pocket Dimension, and there's no evidence of its size except it being called "her universe" in the fan-translation, which could be just a way of saying "her world". Additionally, even if her pocket dimension were to be universe-sized, this does not correlates to her actual fighting power. In fact, the significant evidence against it (like the fact Luka can fight her and not be ridiculously stomped and the fact that much stronger monsters have not feats anywhere close to Tier 6 or 5) it shouldn't scale to her regular AP and Durability. It should then be trated like Sayuri Higuchi's Four Dimension Hands, it's pocket dimension hax.

Her speed sounds fishy, as she doesn't blitz Luka. She's simply too slippery (Those are the words used by Ilias if you lose to her) by his slower attacks at the time (Regular Attack and Demon Decapitation, a strong cut to the neck), so the battle forces Luka to use his Thunder Thrust technique, his fastest attack. Luka hasn't even met Sylph at that point, so even if Sylph's feat of blocking flashes of light is true, it would not necessarily apply to this Luka.

Apoptosis

While pages of them have not been made, I have to adress this before they are done.

And later is now. Basically put: The Chaos erodes space-time, the universe is not okay and it twists space-time to create said creature to fight back against the Chaos. High 3-A feats for those little creatures. And it means the previous 3-A feat is most likely 2-B now.

Apoptosis are creatures made of light and dark energy that are created by a parallel world when chaos starts to erode it to function as some kind of immune system. They are born by twisting space-time. The blog makes the assumption that this makes these basic monsters High-3A. We are all aware that space-time distortion/manipulation at low-scales like this is hax, not AP. Apoptosis are clearly not High-3A, nor is any monster stronger than them High-3A or Tier 2.

Paradox Speeds

Some characters are being put as Infinite or Immeasurable Speed. In the verse blog, the following claims are made.

Now this place. As shown before, the Chaos eats away space AND time, this place is prety much called "Chaos", it uses the same background as Hades and it exists between timelines. Thus it most likely exists outside time and space. Infinite Speed? Infinite Speed. Oh yeah Hades.

It gathers pieces of space time that has broken off. I'd say it's safe to assume it also exists outside time and space.

The various Tartaros in the world are large pits that act as holes in space-time that connect two different parallel worlds. Nothing is said of it not having space or time, they exist between two different parallel worlds. The assumption that Apoptosis, the monsters that spawn in them, are Infinite speed because of this has no actual evidence. The following statement even says that the place gathers the broken space-time from the paralle worlds, so it has some space-time. There's also no evidence for Infinite Speed for characters that walk through it, especially since this would heavily conflict with the speed those same characters display in the actual worlds.

We had the same issue with Aleister Crowley, who can act in the Hidden World of True Gremlin, but displays normal speed outside of it. Touma Kamijou and Othinus aren't given Infinite speed for moving in a blank universe because it contradicts their regular speed. Even it the Tartaros have no time-space it should simply be considered as the ability to function and move through a timeless void.

The timeline the Party access is 'from' a future point. Not only does this prove that the Chaos mess with both time and space, this means Luka basically walked to another point in time, physically. I'm not so sure how this works, but it does sound Immeasurable-y to me. Not only that, but Chaos clearly exists accross all of 'time', and basically existed before it. So it maybe scales to Luka walking in it.

Time Travel via what's effectively portal-like holes in time and space is not evidence of Immeasurable speed. Also bears repeating that, like with the claim for Infinite speed, characters do not display that kind of speed in the actual worlds, so they shouldn't be given those kinds of speeds. There's also an issue with the claim about Chaos that I'll adress next.

Chaos and Ilias

To start with, the verse does have a multiverse with infinite universes. But Chaos eroding it is not 2-A, and Ilias is not 2-A for being stated to be able to supress it.

First the chaos erosion of the worlds. This is not a quick process. When you arrive at the last world in Paradox 1, this is a world that has been under the erosion of chaos for quite a while. I don't remember if they give you a actual date for when you arrive, but La Croix gives you a date up to the year, which implies it was a long time, at least months and very likely several years. Enough time that monsters, angels and humans tried to organize themselves to fight it, failed, fled to the Administrator tower where they lasted for an unknown amount of time (at least days given all the beds for the tower's inhabitants) fighting, taking care of plants and copying books to leave something out of the world's history and their culture. The barrier slowed down the chaosization of the tower and its surroundings, but that was obviously not set up when the chaos erosion started and when it falls you still have enough time to talk to La Croix and flee the world before it entirely collapses. Chaos erosion cannot destroy a large tower and the surrouding landscape in an instant. It cannot destroy an entire country, continent, planet's surface or planet in an instant. And it cannot destroy an universe in an instant. It is a slow process, as we see in the game and by the fact that your world is already being affected by Chaos (thus the Tartarus pits and the Apoptosis appearing on them) and is still fine after thirty years. Thus, Chaos erosion doesn't even have Tier 6 power, let alone Tier 5, Tier 3 or Tier 2. The fact that it destroys space-time to return things to nothingness is meaningless. That's just hax, like all space-time shenanigans lower in scale than universal. It seems obvious, but since Chaos cannot even destroy a single universe in any reasonable amount of time, it's not a Tier 2 character.

Because of this, a character like Ilias being stated to be able to suppress or fight chaos erosion is also not Tier 2, and it should be considered to be just a special power they have, like Luka being able to travel to parallel worlds through the various Tartarus.

More importantly, in that last world La Croix gives an explanation of Chaos and its source, and it debunks some of the things claimed of Chaos in its page and in the blog.

"It turns out that this world didn`t follow the correct history. Somewhere in this history, the paradox occurred, and it turns every space and the world itself into chaos. Chaos is the nothingness. Both are the same thing. And the most significant paradox it seems originated from this other universe. The paradox from this other universe... it made a chain reaction that affected this world. And the whole parallel universes will collide with each other. Then, the whole of all universes will be devoured by the chaos... and what will be left is complete 'nothingness'."

The Chaosization phenomenon that's eroding the worlds was born when a time paradox happened in one of the worlds, thus starting the slow erosion into nothingness and the collapse of the entire multiverse. This phenomenon clearly doesn't predate the universe, it specifically originated long after the creation of the worlds and is unrelated to the "chaos" that existed prior to the creation of Light and Darkness, the nothingness that the multiverse will be eventually be reduced to. It's doesn't seem to be even a character or an abstract being any more than our gravity or entropy are, so IMO it shouldn't even have a page.

Also, for the "Conceptual Manipulation" claimed on its page. This apparenly comes from the moment you arrive into the last alternate world in Paradox 1, the one it's almost completely eroded away. All living things are confirmed to have already died in the world, the only remaining inhabitants are robots or undead monsters like La Croix. This confirms that the Sylph and Gnome of that universe, two of the elemental avatars of nature, are dead. Thus, when the Sylph and Gnome that are with the protagonist party say "I can't feel the power of my element" or "Are the wind and earth of this world dead?", the obvious explanation is that they can't feel their parallel elemental counterparts, thus the "wind and earth" are dead, they are no longer elemental forces of nature since their avatars are gone. The concepts of wind and earth should still be fine, especially since you are walking on actual earth in that world.

To sum up, there's no evidence of Tier 3 or 2 power nor there is of Infinite/Immeasurable speeds. There's also no evidence of Chaos being an actual being or existence that would warrant a page, and even if it did there's no evidence of it having conceptual manipulation.

LazyHunter asked me to highlight this thread, so I have done so. However, I will remove it when enough people have replied.

Saikou does have a respect blog where he explains a lot.

Somebody should probably inform him about this thread.

It looks like he quotes this thread here.

@Matt

"I'll answer it later when I have time. Just a heads up, my blog is pretty outdated, so you shouldn't take it into account." -Saikou, less than half an hour ago

It would likely be best for him to comment, fully.

One small thing I'd like to note.

Infinity divided by anything is infinity. No matter how long it took, Chaos' feat would be 2-A.

God this is perverted

@The real cal howard

But even so, Chaos' effects on an individual world don't seem to be Tier 2 and it takes some time for it to erode even one planet, so I don't understand why a character would be Tier 2 for being described as capable of suppressing them.

Idk. Just a nitpick, sorta.

Okay. Also, as I pointed out, there appears to be a difference between Chaos (Primordial state of nothingness before Light and Darkness/the multiverse were a thing) and Chaosization (The erosion of parallel worlds and destruction of their space-time until everything becomes Chaos again).

Let's focus on Chaos for now. The others can wait for now.

There isn't much difference between the two. It's really just Chaos spreading, which was triggered by a Paradox. As stated by Cal, it doesn't really matter if it takes time, said time is clearly not infinite. Someone being capable of stopping the phenomenon would be 2-A, given again that it wouldn't take an infinite amount of time for it to destroy the Multiverse. By the way, if you didn't notice, it has been said several times that the process is speeding up. To the point where it's becoming more and more of a danger.

I also explained why the Chaos didn't destroy the Administrator Tower instantly in my blog. La Croix put up barriers against the destruction of the universe. Once she and her tech are gone, a vastly weakened Adramelech proceed to instantly erase the rest. It only took 30 years for a universe to go boom when the Chaos was at its slowest.

I say again, speed doesn't matter if we deal with Infinite stuff. It takes time, yes, but it takes time to do an infinite task. Still an infinite amount of "energy" being put into the task to complete it into a reasonable amount of time.

For the speed, these aren't on the profiles yet, but we have Adramelech basically living in the chaos as her job. So does the Reaper. These clearly aren't temporary cases. Whether or not this is Immeasurable or Infinite though...

Hmm... not that I now the verse in any way, but my two thoughts on the 2-A thingy:

1. Technically we could be talking about a supertask, which would fit the acceleration thing well.

2. If it's accelerating its destruction couldn't that mean it getting more powerful the more it consumes, given that it seemingly is able to cause more destruction per time? (or if we talk about something like a universe dissolving phenomen it might just be getting bigger...) In that case its power would have to be judged relative to its destructive power at the time its engaged.

I don't think there's any evidence that it is a supertask.

Its destruction of the Multiverse isn't dependent on its speed though. Even if it didn't accelerate, it's still going to destroy it all. At least that's how it is implied to work.

Well, if it has a relatively slow speed in the beginning (Saikou mentioned it needed 30 years for a universe to go boom at the beginning) it would never be finished unless it gets a lot faster.

Meaning either at some point at has to make a infinitely large jump in destruction speed from relatively slow finite to infinite or it gets progressively faster at such a rate that it can finish all infinite universes at a finite time.

Unless there is a reason for it to become infinitely more powerful at one point, it just seems more likely that it grows more powerful at an continous rate instead.


Essentially I imagine it a bit like a locust plague from the description I was given. Basically it eats through the multiverse in the same way Locust would eat through vegetation.

The more they eat the faster they can multiply the faster they can eat to multiply more, so that the amount of vegetation destroyed over time is exponentially rising.

In that case one only has to be able to destroy the swarm to stop it, not destroy all vegetation it would have eaten at one point.

@Saikou: But if it needed 30 years for a universe to go boom at the beginning, than the only way for it to finish everything is over a infinite time if it doesn't get faster, no? (destruction rate of 1/30 universes per year and stuff)

It's only the rate for a single universe though. All the universes are in the process of being eaten to some degree. Just that this one was eaten much more badly.

Its speed can increase, yes, but it isn't the main factor in the destruction of the Multiverse. It's more like "The multiverse is going to get destroyed, and if you do X it will just make it happen faster"

As far as I remember, this 30 years is the time that the special local barrier lasted. The rest of the world was destroyed much faster.

@Saikou

The paradox trigger the erosion of parallel worlds into Chaos, which affects other parallel worlds by chain reaction, but chaos itself appears to have no AP and no will of its own, given that so far it's just the state of nothingness. That's why I say IMO it's not even a character. And even if Chaos is 2-A, there's no way Ilias is 2-A. There's not a single hint of that kind of power in the original trilogy, and suppressing chaosization in one world is not necessarily 2-A. What's more, there are several characters without feats anywhere close to Tier 5 that can fight both her regular form and her Dark Goddess form, and characters comparable to those characters: Luka, both Alice, Four Heavenly Knights, Promestein, the Next Dolls, etc... Putting her as Tier 2 would make all these other characters Tier 2, and there's no justification for that. Even if Ilias had a legitimate 2-A feat, which I still doubt, it doesn't make any sense considering everything else about the verse's feats and power scale, so it should be deemed an outlier.

Adramelech is an Apoptosis, the things the world create in a futile attempt to combat chaos, she wasn't the one to destroy what was left, wasn't it? It was chaosization.

As for the speed, I could maybe accept Infinite speed for Reaper, since so far she seems to be above anyone else and the bonus fight with her it's very likely not supposed to be canon, but Adramelech is just a stronger Apoptosis. Like the others, she is fought by regular creatures normally (see La Croix and your party), and doesn't display Infinite Speed when out of Tartarus or she would have easily blitzed La Croix/go past her and caught up the party before they could escape.

@DarkLK

It doesn't say that the barrier lasted 30 years, only that the chaosization started 30 years ago. We don't know when they set up the Administrator Tower and the barrier, but it probably wasn't there when the chaosization started. And the main world you play in also had chaosization start 30 years ago with no apparent barrier and it's still holding on, continent split and Tartarus holes notwithstanding. Other worlds also seem to be somewhat fine so the speed/impact of chaosization appears to vary between worlds. It doens't seem to have an uniform speed.

Ilias Can surpress the chaos because she has the hax to do it, but this doesn't mean that she can do it with anyone else, in the original trilogy the best feat that they show is (if i'm not forgetting anything) when Black Alice absobs the power of the white rabbit(power of the dark goddess) and ilias itself, when she did that it was stated that she was devouring the world and now in this new series (paradox) we have the White Rabbit and Reaper that is stated to be more than 3D (4D in the case) when Ilias says that White Rabbit are the same in all timelines. Now I think Chaos is 2-A but Ilias is not even close to that, she only has the hacks to counter him and only him, because we saw in the first trilogy that Luka could have solo her if she didn't absorb the white rabbit(power of the dark goddess) and even with that she still loses.

In my opinion the Tiers should be like this.

God tiers - Chaos 2-A

Top Tiers - Illias, Alipheese the First, Luka, Mikaela, Lucifina, (all the seraph and arch angels from paradox) six monsters anchestors (loli Tamamo included), Nero and Neris (maybe, not sure yet, neeed to see part 2) and Black Alice white rabbit absobed. they all should be between 7-A to 5-A

High Tiers - Alice 16, Heavenly knights, spirits, promestein, lilith sisters, Heinrich, Mercelo(maybe higher, we will probably see more feats in the next game), chrome and her sister, and some angels and monsters. they shoul be between 9-A to 7-A

Unknown Tier - White Rabbit (paradox), Reaper, and maybe Chaos

I love this verse and i'm really hyped for the next game but for now like I said the best feats are from Chaos thats it is 2-A in my opinion and from White Rabbit and Reaper for being 4D, but the rest is more or less Planet Level at best like Black alice and Luka for beating her (Alice 16 is stated to be weaker than Luka in the end of chapter 2, thats why i think she is at best 7-A)

So yeah, that's my opinion =D

@Geova2507 Ilias devouring the world in her transformed state seemed like a lengthy process and doesn't seem to relate to her fighting power given that characters able to fight her base form, which should be weaker than Planet level, can still fight her Dark Goddess form. While I could buy something like "Planet level via devouring the world", I'm not sure it would scale to her regular attacks or to the people that can fight her. At most, like you said, we could put "At least X, possibly 5-B" for those characters.

Nero and Neris are definitely top tiers. Nero was able to fight the White Rabbit and the Armored Berserker, while Neris has the whole "conquered Plansect Village, defeated Cassandra, defeated the Arachne faction and fought Granberia to a draw all in one day" thing, not to mention how she utterly stomps Nanabi, one of Tamamo's strongest followers who seems somewhat comparable to the various monster queens, who should likely be High Tiers.

Alice and the Heavenly Knights should be Top Tiers. Though weaker than Luka and Ilias, they are still strong enough to help him fight Ilias in her Dark Goddess form like Micaela did, and Alice was able to fight regular Ilias, with the Heavenly Knights scale to since they can fight Alice herself.

@LazyHunter So about Ilias and Black Alice eating the hole planet it is stated in the Monsterpedia that they are growing endlessly and in an explosive rate so in the case they could be in a long term considered even 3-A for eating the hole universe etc... but would take some time, thats why I think 5-B to 5-A in a short time would be reasonable and MAYBE a 3-A in a LONG I repeat LOOONG period of time.

About Nero and Neris now that you remind me yeah they are top tiers and Alice/Heavenly Knights could be too but I don't think they surpass tier 7-A... for now at leats.

Adramelech should be considered High tier maybe? I don't think she is above 7-B, and marcelus I'm really thinking that he deserves Top tier, at least I wish for haha, but for now we don't have lots of feats, only that he can defeat Adramelech.

I don't know, they don't appear to damage the world too much nor they grow in size too much during the fight, so it's not like we have a growth speed we can use to judge it. On the other hand, I think the first Demon Lord was worried that if her fight with Ilias continued it would end up destroying the world, though again, no rate of destruction given.

Adramelech would probably be High Tier. La Croix gave her a tough fight that significantly weakened her to the point Luka's party could defeat her. Marcelus finished her off after that, but given how easy he made it look like he's probably around that level, at least.

They don't appear to grow up in size too much during the fight because it would be a little complicated to do that in a VN game, I think in this situation we have to work with the things that we have, in the case the notes in game, so if the game notes says that they are growing in a fast way they are growing in a fast way(at least for me kk), even thou we don't see that, but like I said its a VN, maybe if it was an Anime or a CGI in the game that growing could be more explicit.

About Alipheese first and Ilias fighting destroying the world I think it would be in a long term battle not instantaneous (like for example Freeza and Planet Vegeta) but still it is a planet level feat.

And about the growing like I said it could be considered a 3-A feature in a rly long term but thats doesn't mean that a character tier 5-A or above cound't take her on, because her attacks are at maximum 5-A.

Oh I forgot about Page 17, let me say what I think rly fast, at the same time I disagreed with the page I agreed with it too, because she has the power to create her own universe in her book, but only in her book, outside of it she is at maximum 9-A (rly she is literally a Monster book page) but inside her "universe" she can do whatever she wants, so in her book she would be at minimum low 2-C maybe higher (because we don't know if they have a timeline in that universe) but outside of it she would be 9-A, and for those who do not know she can only put someone inside her book if that person loses to her in a fight or if that person wants to go there, so if we gonna make battles with her low 2-C form we have to state that the battle will be inside her book, because she only has these powers there.

It's not about the limitations of a VN, if the VN wants to display their growth is having in the world they can do so with a couple of lines of narration or dialogue like a book can do. It's the fact that much weaker characters than Planet level are able to contribute to their defeat, and when they are defeated the world is still in one piece and from what we can see no different from its state prior to the fight, which seriously challenges the idea they were growing and absorbing any significant parts of the planet. Because of that, the Planet level should be listed as "Possibly", and only for those characters. There's no evidence for it being 3-A.

For Alice I and Ilias, if it wasn't in one shot or in a short battle a Planet level feat would be doubtful, and the two were in a straight out war at the time.

As for Page 17....No, just no.

This is what we know with certainty: She has a pocket dimension trick where she can pull her opponent inside the book she's possessing and times flows differently there.

There's zero evidence for her having any additional powers inside of it, and zero evidence of the pocket dimension's size beyond the fan translation refering to it as "her universe", which could be a way of saying "her world". And even if she had special powers inside of it, control of a pocket dimension of indeterminate size doesn't make one Tier 2 while inside.

I agree with much of what you said, but Ilias is still stronger than Alice as in the fight at the start of Part 1 Alice ambushed Ilias and gave her an unspecified wound, by using the combined power of dark magic and the Angel Halo (Torotoro confirmed that this is how Alice managed to wound Ilias), while Ilias then proceeded to blow away Alice into unconsciousness and didn't give her blessings as she didn't want to appear before her followers with a wound.

I'm not disagreeing with you on that, but you can be stronger than someone and still be comparable. Alice was still able to fight Ilias, and she helps you fight her Dark Goddess form at the end. She is there with you helping the entire battle, holding on better than Micaela and all the Four Heavenly Knights because she's stronger than them. Being able to fight a powered up version of Ilias makes her a top tier, even if Ilias and Luka are stronger than her.

Also, the wound makes me dubious of the Regenerationn current angels have in their pages since I don't remember any angel having that kind of regen, but that and their "Non-Corporeality" probably need to be looked in another revision thread more closely, this one already has enough things to discuss.

Stronger than Alma/Granberia/Erubetie surely, but Micaela and Tamamo I wouldn't be so sure. Micaela didn't exactly actually get wailed on by Ilias, while expressly mentioning the time she spent outside the heavens weakened her greatly, and she still dealt massive damage to Ilias, which implies her actual full power (at least on a stamina level) is greater than what was displayed. Tamamo on the other hand did get wailed on a bit, and ended up reverting to her sealed form. It seems as though both of them retreated because they felt like they wouldn't be of much help any more compared to Luka, while Alice would naturally stay by his side until the end since she's his partner. And to cut the Heavenly Knights some slack they did act as meat shields for Luka and Alice throughout most of the fight.

Tamamo might be as strong or stronger than Alice in her adult form, but given that it is a time limited form, it doesn't mean much. Micaela was weakened by the time spent out of Heaven, but we don't know how strong she would be otherwise so there's no point speculating. She should be weaker than a regular Ilias, regardless of being "out of shape", and Alice can fight both base and transformed Ilias. They are all comparable, so they would be on the same tier.

This has become rather unmanageable. Where is Saikou and can he provide detailed explanations?

Paradox Part 2 is coming out in about two weeks from now so that should give insight into some of the doubts.

About Adramelech, I think it's hard to pinpoint her, she was stated as the highest class of apoptosis. La Croix survived all the way up to the very end while everything else died off, which may be indicative that she's not merely as strong as her counterpart in the trilogy, and brought Adramelech down to 10% of her power (she also claimed to have fought Adramelech many times in the past, who got stronger each time). Adramelech was then defeated by Luka & Co. I definitely don't think Marcellus should be top tier for destroying Adramelech, as he simply vanquished someone who was pretty much next to dead anyway. He does however have the potential to be up there since he claimed to be the one saving many worlds. There's also the whole thing about Adramelech being pretty much the weakest Labyrinth of Chaos boss, but I'm not sure if this is supposed to be a "slightly juiced up 10% Adramelech" or full power Adramelech. Adramelech is also implied to be able to "erase" Ilias in the evaluation. We will have to wait to see if any more of Adramelech is even shown in the rest of the story.

There's not even enough info for Marcellus to have a page, anyway, so that can wait to at least Paradox 2.

Stilll, there's still the issues of Page 17's pocket dimension, scaling mobs and weak monsters like Lime to stronger protagonists because they harm them due to RPG mechanics, speeds and the whole "by scaling Ilias to Chaos we have to scale all top tiers to it, which makes zero sense given the lack of feats anywhere close to Tier 2". Those four issues can be adressed now.

On those matters I agree with what you've already stated.

@LazyHunter Can you summarise the conclusions here, and what needs to be changed?

I know nothing about this franchise, but I can agree on Page 17 being downgraded. Having a pocket universe with no set size has never been reason for Universe level+ rating. That is wank.

Also much of this "timeless void" stuff seems like it's in no way legit for anyone but Chaos.

I generally agree with Azathoth.

I also think that Azathoth makes sense.

Looking over the other pages, this is some of what I've noticed:

• Multiple characters scaled to Page 17 will need to be downgraded.

• Multiple characters are scaled to Infinite or Immeasurable speeds for merely existing in a timeless void. From what I have read from this thread, the only one who this is legit for is Chaos, as it is the void.

• Ilias is listed as having Multiverse level+ AP for having what is described as what is likely a 3-A feat/Low 2-C at best. Then multiple characters are scaled to her or scaled to characters who fought her.

This definitely seems like revisions are necessary.

Edit: Looking into, characters who are permanently killed also often seem to be listed as having obscenely high regen for bogus reasons. There are also multiple statements that I can not find supported anywhere on MGQ's wiki or in screenshots.

I agree with Azathoth.