• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Staff Only: Using Anime Adaptations for Feats

Status
Not open for further replies.
LordXcano

LordXcano

VS Battles
Retired
2,334
312
So, uh, why can't we do this exactly? I'm not talking about feats that occur exclusively within the anime or feats that are done totally differently in the anime either. I'm just talking about feats that give extra context that a calc would be missing if using the manga (timeframe, for example).

Obviously the anime isn't the primary canon, but neither are guidebooks and we don't have a problem using those as long as it doesn't contradict the source material (keyword being contradict). So if a character dodges some lightning but it's unclear how close it was when they dodged, why can't we use the anime showing this for greater accuracy? Some other examples where using the manga alone is impossible without random assumptions:

  • A character views bullets in slow motion, but how "slow motion" are they?
  • A character is depicted as dodging gunfire but it's unclear if it was aimdodging
  • Someone fires an energy blast into a faraway mountain with no reference points
  • A character circles the Earth over 3 panels
Or any speed calc at all actually, since it is absolutely impossible to accurately determine the ratio of the two object's speed from still panels alone.

Plus, our page on cano seems to agree with this already, stating:

"If the feat is correctly depicted over multiple canons any of these can be used to judge the feat. Should by judging the feat through multiple canons different results be reached the result of the primary canon will have priority."

Which seems to imply that, given a situation where you cannot accurately determine a feat's ranking through the primary canon alone, any of the other multiple canons is acceptable.
 
I'm fine with this as long as the feat within the anime doesn't contradict the manga by adding cinematic filler or what not.
 
I'm fine with this so long as the scenes in question are explicitly stated so in the source material.
 
I suppose that this seems to make sense, and would simplify our work.

However, we would probably need to write a regulation or clarification about it somewhere. Should we do so in the Calculations or Calculation Guide pages, one of the rules pages, or somewhere else? Also, what should the text say?
 
Same as everyone else here. Long as it doesn't change or add anything different from the original source material, is fine by me.
 
What our canon page currently states is only in regards to multiple canons, aka for example many lightnovel have canon manga or some movies or anime adaptations might be canon (IIRC we for example use the one punch man anime together with the manga, because it is canon)

So for canon anime this was never really a problem, just for non-canon anime it is a bad idea in my opinion.


For one that would be a massive change, because I am 99% sure that it means we have to completly rescale the HST and many other stuff.

Lastly it just is that an anime with no author involvement means that the one that created it did a guess at this things that is as good as ours. Essentially the animator made a random descision and had not more idea of it than we have when reading the source material.

So in my opinion for canon anime there is no problem, but using scenes from non-canon anime, just because that scene also occured in canon, is a bad idea.
 
Wouldn't it be better to go with an "official" guess rather than ours (When both are equally believable) though? It just kinda annoys for example that we have a decisive timeframe in the anime but that we won't use it at all and instead use our own timeframe.
 
The guess isn't more justified or official than ours in any way.

Actually it might even be worse, because the guess made by some animator for an anime will go by what looks good, not what is believable.


Like for example Touma is offcially supposed to aim-dodge all superhumanly fast attacks, but due to the animator thinking it would look better if Touma moves after the opponent starts its attack I can consistently calc him to MHS speed using the anime.
 
How do we know what is canon and what isnt?

Like sure ONE helped strucure the story for the OPM anime but I really doubt he said "Yeah so his jump from the moon will be 6 seconds long".
 
So, going by what DT said, would it be fine to accept anime representations given author involvement and/or the required something from the anime is not related to time? It could instead be something like how the person moved if it was unclear in the manga (Madara's Light Fang for example, which I didn't really understand the manga panel until someone explained it, or Kirito's movements in the middle of a hail of automatic gunfire), or... something. I can't think of much else. That, and the lack of contradiction between source material and anime presentation (Boros' laser beam which was stated contradictory in the webcomic, manga and anime).
 
@DT

"Like for example Touma is offcially supposed to aim-dodge all superhumanly fast attacks, but due to the animator thinking it would look better if Touma moves after the opponent starts its attack I can consistently calc him to MHS speed using the anime."

I addressed this in the OP. If the feat is presented differently it shouldn't be used. In this case he's explicitly aimdodging but the anime shows him as dodging after the attack starts. This is more for cases where nothing is workable without guessing. Good example would be any planet busting feat, which you cannot calc using mass dispersion because you have no timeframe. The anime gives you one that is, at least, secondary canon.
 
You can calc planet busting through GBE, though.


It is quite simple: Changing the canon regulation means new feats for any verse that has a non-canon anime adaptation (we speak about hundreds or thousand), which means massive rescaling especially since very popular verses like Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, Fairy Tale, Dragonball etc. would have to be rescaled.


Also more calculateable feats is only a very debatable improvement.

As said there isn't much reason to prefer what a random animator thought would look good over what we make from the feat. Of course no author would in case of an anime control all animation, heck no author would bother thinking about such details when writing the source material, but in the end we can only play by taking the material the author approved of as "intended depiction" even if he didn't thought about physics.

If we didn't do that we would have to go after author intent on feats, which is bad.


With that comes that what we do is "judging characters stats by how they are depicted".

In that sense changing from "the character as depicted in canon" to "the character as depicted in all adaptations" isn't simply getting extra info interpretation from some second source, but actually is changing the character you are judging.

Getting more information like that doesn't improve the profiles, it just changes the judgement basis for the profiles. It is a change to something different, not an improvement of the existing and in total also not better just different.

Feats being ambitious or unquantifiable at times is part of how a character is depicted in a source material and as that part of what his actual stats (in terms of our profiles) are.


So in our central goal to have the stats that best fit the depiction of characters in the material after which we rank them, changing which material that is doesn't actually help.

It is a massive revision, though.


So as I see it there is no real gain for the accuracy of the profiles here, but a huge minus in terms of work.
 
I agree with DontTalk. We are already extremely overworked as it is, and cannot afford to change standards that would lead to massive revisions for little or no gain whatsoever.
 
"It is quite simple: Changing the canon regulation means new feats for any verse that has a non-canon anime adaptation (we speak about hundreds or thousand), which means massive rescaling especially since very popular verses like Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, Fairy Tale, Dragonball etc. would have to be rescaled."

This is an argument from consequences. Just changing the rules does not mean everything has to be rescaled instantly. Things would be rescaled as people actually went and calculated feats from the anime here.

"If we didn't do that we would have to go after author intent on feats, which is bad."

You cannot both argue that an anime isn't acceptable because it is a "random animator" and then argue that we can't use author intent. A "random animator" is an author. They aren't the original, but they still have far more sway than you do as they have actually worked on the material.

"Getting more information like that doesn't improve the profiles, it just changes the judgement basis for the profiles."

Gaining more information on a feat isn't an improvement over random guesswork?

"So in our central goal to have the stats that best fit the depiction of characters in the material after which we rank them, changing which material that is doesn't actually help."

Yes. And a feat that we can see from other canon only takes 10 seconds is a much better and more accurate depiction than "Well I guess I'll assume 30 seconds for a high ball".

Either way, this thread has overwhelming support, with 13 staff members agreeing to the change. I don't think denying it's implementation just because it would add some more work in an arbitrarily distant future timeframe is very democratic.
 
Well, let's see what the other staff members think after reading what DontTalk had to say. I am personally uncertain.
 
I still personally think Cano makes a lot of sense here. As long as the feat in the anime adaption matches what happened in the manga and isn't different, I think it should be fine.
 
Well, okay then. If no major revisions are necessary, I hope that this will be useful rather than detrimental.
 
However, then we get back to the following issue:

We would probably need to write a regulation or clarification about it somewhere. Should we do so in the Calculations or Calculation Guide pages, one of the rules pages, or somewhere else? Also, what should the text say?
 
The cano page would be the one that has to be modified, I think.

In regards to what to write I would suggest just taking the rules we have for books (at the bottom of the page) and generalize them to everything. That should do the trick.


We will see how this works out...

Edit: I suppose we also need a clarification on what is an official adaptation then, so that high quality fan-fiction isn't included.
 
@DontTalk

The problem is that even official adaptations can still possess some minor or even major differences from changing a character's eye color to different dialogue entirely (or even omitting some scenes). The same case can be said for official translations. They may still bear some subtle differences from the original that from our standpoint could affect how we rate statistics.
 
@DontTalk

Sorry, I wasn't arguing, I agree with what you said. I was just saying that it'd be hard for us to determine what's a official adaptation if even official adaptions can contradict the source material in some way. Being an adaptation, it's bound to happen due to creative control.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

LordGriffin1000
  • Locked
Human Statistics Scaling Standards in Fiction (Staff Only)
2
Replies
45
Views
5K
LordGriffin1000
LordGriffin1000
SunDaGamer
  • Locked
Jujutsu Kaisen Hax Removals (Staff Only)
2
Replies
49
Views
9K
Deagonx
Deagonx
M3X_2.0
  • Locked
MHS Jujutsu Kaisen should have never existed. (Staff Only)
2 3
Replies
91
Views
15K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Fwyzzverse
  • Locked
Timeframe | Creation Feats (Revision)
2
Replies
41
Views
4K
Antvasima
Antvasima
The_Yellow_Topaz
  • Locked
Dragon Ball Z: Kakarot - The canon and the non-canon
2 3
Replies
99
Views
8K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Back
Top