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The One High 1-A upscale

Emirp sumitpo said:
The last part is fair. but the point I'm making still stands. We don't know how the omniversal matrix functions beyond it simply being a vaguely higher realm that Primus can't attain. The other realms get their rating because they at least some further context to what they are. The Omniversal Matrix simply doesn't.
Click to expand...
cant the one get paraconsistent physiology due to the fact he represents chaos and order in a perfect order? and he is the unity of all
 
Antvasima said:
Thank you for helping out, Emirp.

What do you think about his arguments, @RaikiKurohane99 ? 🙏
Click to expand...
The reason I believed in High 1-A is primarily due to the idea that everything dissolves into the Matrix as a Unity.

Unless there is a reason against it, I would assume this includes everything prior that is listed in the Cosmology blog, including the layers of 1-A.

This would mean the framework that differentiates those layers of 1-A would also dissolve into the Matrix (as it conditions everything and everything dissolves into it). It would thus be superior to the multiplicity generated by the 1-A layers and their genera.

Afterall, the tier 1-A as a whole is a genera consisting of repeated steps of the same time, generally R>F but not necessarily. Each layer of 1-A is just adding an accidental quality of "+1" which determines which level some layer stands at in the framework, while the framework itself as a genera does not change.

And if something dissolves the framework into itself, or dissolves them in a way that the multiple layers of 1-A can no longer be differentiated from each other, that is where High 1-A begins.

From our Omnipotence page:
The Tiering System, starting from Tier 1-A, ultimately concerns itself with characters that display superiority over various forms of multiplicity. The "baseline level" of 1-A, for example, represents a being that stands superior to quantitative multiplicities in general, which is not to say that it is above numerical sets altogether, but that it is something whose superiority cannot be reached by adding together any structures from 11-C to Low 1-A, however many of those are involved. While some outlandish structure such as a multiverse consisting of an inaccessible cardinal's worth of universes might bridge the gap between Low 2-C and High 1-B, no amount of lower things put together will ever attain to 1-A, and likewise there is no possible subdivision of a 1-A thing that is not, itself, 1-A, meaning that, just as it cannot be added up to, so it cannot be divided down. Thus, the tier is referred to as "qualitatively" (rather than quantitatively) superior to anything below it. Another way to construct this being that a 1-A character is superior to the very attribute that defines and generates all the tiers below it (In this case, quantity and extension).
Click to expand...
Naturally, this process can be arbitrarily generalized: A character "one level above baseline 1-A" is simply a being that stands to an arbitrarily numerous multitude of "Baseline 1-A" characters in the same way that those stand to anything else, thus it is qualitatively superior to such characters. This process can be iterated however many times one wishes. Next, High 1-A is produced by applying the same principle, but to multiplicities of 1-A-level beings that are vertical instead of horizontal, i.e. instead of being superior merely to arbitrary numbers of entities occupying the same level of reality, they stand superior to arbitrary numbers of levels of reality generated by the aforementioned process. Thus they are said to have a "meta"-qualitative superiority over their inferiors. Another way to construct this being that, as 1-A derived its superiority by being intrinsically superior to some attribute defining the entire hierarchy of tiers spanning 11-C to High 1-B, so does High 1-A derive its superiority by transcending, as it were, the defining attribute behind arbitrarily-many 1-A levels.
Click to expand...
Other than that, some of what I said is also derived from here (Specifically the Hierarchy section):

I will quote some small parts, but I recommend reading the entire section yourself if you have time:
The notion of "hierarchy" and "framework," in particular, is of interest here. 1-A transcends the framework of all lower tiers, and High 1-A in turn transcends the framework of 1-A. This "framework," precisely defined, means nothing more than a series (Or more accurately, a potential series) of layers related to each other through some quality present in all of them. In other words, it is nothing other than a genus, with the "layers" in question then being species of that genus.

In the case of the tiers prior to 1-A, the "layers" in question are defined by the qualities of dimensionality and cardinality, with Low 1-A being the aggregate of all such structures into a proper class. Thus, the "framework" in question consists of the genus of quantity. As such, 1-A is aptly described as occupying a higher genus than anything below it.

Yet, there may also be similar hierarchies in 1-A itself, the levels of which have qualitative transcendences amongst each other as well. Thus, though a qualitatively greater domain surpasses the genus of quantity, still it is embedded within a broader genus of its own. And although the difference between any two of these levels is essential, still there is a broad, generic quiddity that applies uniformly to all its levels, which are then specifications of it in accordance with their degree of reality. To put it more precisely: The levels differ in species, but share a common genus.
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So, for example: for three 1-A layers, A > B > C, each of them is nothing but "Generic Attribute + Specific Attribute A," "Generic Attribute + Specific Attribute B" and "Generic Attribute + Specific Attribute C." A High 1-A being is something that surpasses not only the specific attributes corresponding to the lower layers, but also the generic attribute defining the whole series of layers, and any potential other layers that can possibly spring from it. It is exactly how 1-A itself transcends the genus that defines all possible dimensional levels (Quantity).
Click to expand...
Whereas, from the scan provided by the OP, it seems that the AllSpark/Matrix is:
  • Contains everything that has ever existed.
  • The wellspring from which every Essence emerges and returns to.
  • In the AllSpark everything is One, and has no individuality.
  • Is Infinity, Omnipresent and Omniscient compared to everything else.

I would say that should be enough. High 1-A is simply something that transcends the differentiation between 1-A layers, the same way 1-A transcends dimensional differentiation. The whole "Inaccessibility" itself can be achieved in a multitude of ways (For example, if it is Infinity, it gives that everything (Finiteness) cannot reach it).
 
RaikiKurohane99 said:
The reason I believed in High 1-A is primarily due to the idea that everything dissolves into the Matrix as a Unity.

Unless there is a reason against it, I would assume this includes everything prior that is listed in the Cosmology blog, including the layers of 1-A.

This would mean the framework that differentiates those layers of 1-A would also dissolve into the Matrix (as it conditions everything and everything dissolves into it). It would thus be superior to the multiplicity generated by the 1-A layers and their genera.

Afterall, the tier 1-A as a whole is a genera consisting of repeated steps of the same time, generally R>F but not necessarily. Each layer of 1-A is just adding an accidental quality of "+1" which determines which level some layer stands at in the framework, while the framework itself as a genera does not change.

And if something dissolves the framework into itself, or dissolves them in a way that the multiple layers of 1-A can no longer be differentiated from each other, that is where High 1-A begins.

From our Omnipotence page:


Other than that, some of what I said is also derived from here (Specifically the Hierarchy section):

I will quote some small parts, but I recommend reading the entire section yourself if you have time:


Whereas, from the scan provided by the OP, it seems that the AllSpark/Matrix is:
  • Contains everything that has ever existed.
  • The wellspring from which every Essence emerges and returns to.
  • In the AllSpark everything is One, and has no individuality.
  • Is Infinity, Omnipresent and Omniscient compared to everything else.

I would say that should be enough. High 1-A is simply something that transcends the differentiation between 1-A layers, the same way 1-A transcends dimensional differentiation. The whole "Inaccessibility" itself can be achieved in a multitude of ways (For example, if it is Infinity, it gives that everything (Finiteness) cannot reach it).
Click to expand...
so are u saying that the matrix can be high 1-A?
because if thats it then the one and the omniversal matrix can also be 1 layer into high 1-A
and primus and unicron baseine high 1-A
so lesser levels of the ToL are 1-A
the matrix is high 1-A
and the one is high 1-A 1 layer into is that what you are saying?
 
Whatsthemeanigoflive said:
so are u saying that the matrix can be high 1-A?
because if thats it then the one and the omniversal matrix can also be 1 layer into high 1-A
and primus and unicron baseine high 1-A
so lesser levels of the ToL are 1-A
the matrix is high 1-A
and the one is high 1-A 1 layer into is that what you are saying?
Click to expand...
I'm not familiar with the chain-scaling of this setting so I cannot comment on this.

For now I simply agree with High 1-A for the AllSpark.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
The last part is fair. but the point I'm making still stands. We don't know how the omniversal matrix functions beyond it simply being a vaguely higher realm that Primus can't attain. The other realms get their rating because they at least some further context to what they are. The Omniversal Matrix simply doesn't.
Click to expand...
I can see your perspective of the nature of the Omniversal Matrix being vague in nature, however I do think even without specific context on the realm itself, we can use surrounding context such as the nature of Primus himself to assist us.

Primus in the Tree of Life IS the 6th layer. He is the peak of the 1-A framework. He is infinite, omniscient and omnipresent (Stated to be so). He is the finality and the source of which all things originate from (Stated to be so), making him the apex of the 1-A framework. If we were to make the Omniversal Matrix the 7th layer, it would contradict Primus being the source of all things within the 1-A framework, which is why I believe that given he can not access it without The One's will, The One and the Omniversal Matrix would be existing on a superior framework, making both of which High 1-A. I was iffy on this too at first, but eventually it started to make sense
 
RaikiKurohane99 said:
I'm not familiar with the chain-scaling of this setting so I cannot comment on this.

For now I simply agree with High 1-A for the AllSpark.
Click to expand...
Just for clarification, the Allspark being High 1-A would make Primus High 1-A simply due to the fact that the Allspark is literally Primus himself. Unless you named the wrong thing and meant to be say 'Omniversal Matrix' instead of 'Allspark'?
 
Katipax said:
I can see your perspective of the nature of the Omniversal Matrix being vague in nature, however I do think even without specific context on the realm itself, we can use surrounding context such as the nature of Primus himself to assist us.

Primus in the Tree of Life IS the 6th layer. He is the peak of the 1-A framework. He is infinite, omniscient and omnipresent (Stated to be so). He is the finality and the source of which all things originate from (Stated to be so), making him the apex of the 1-A framework. If we were to make the Omniversal Matrix the 7th layer, it would contradict Primus being the source of all things within the 1-A framework, which is why I believe that given he can not access it without The One's will, The One and the Omniversal Matrix would be existing on a superior framework, making both of which High 1-A. I was iffy on this too at first, but eventually it started to make sense
Click to expand...
Using the Omniversal Matrix is likely to be complicated, given that we know nothing about it apart from the fact that it exists, in fact, even the Tree of Life is a complicated concept, given that it is only mentioned in G1 for five seconds and over a few pages of a book
 
Optimus.negz said:
Using the Omniversal Matrix is likely to be complicated, given that we know nothing about it apart from the fact that it exists, in fact, even the Tree of Life is a complicated concept, given that it is only mentioned in G1 for five seconds and over a few pages of a book
Click to expand...
In my view, we should simply mention the existence of the MO and state that it should be higher, without going so far as to claim it is superior to other frameworks.

(Just so you know: I was also the one who helped you on TikTok with that famous ‘High Outer+’ from Transformers.)
 
Optimus.negz said:
In my view, we should simply mention the existence of the MO and state that it should be higher, without going so far as to claim it is superior to other frameworks.

(Just so you know: I was also the one who helped you on TikTok with that famous ‘High Outer+’ from Transformers.)
Click to expand...
aint the high outer+ arg very very bad or smth lol
 
RaikiKurohane99 said:
The reason I believed in High 1-A is primarily due to the idea that everything dissolves into the Matrix as a Unity.

Unless there is a reason against it, I would assume this includes everything prior that is listed in the Cosmology blog, including the layers of 1-A.

This would mean the framework that differentiates those layers of 1-A would also dissolve into the Matrix (as it conditions everything and everything dissolves into it). It would thus be superior to the multiplicity generated by the 1-A layers and their genera.

Afterall, the tier 1-A as a whole is a genera consisting of repeated steps of the same time, generally R>F but not necessarily. Each layer of 1-A is just adding an accidental quality of "+1" which determines which level some layer stands at in the framework, while the framework itself as a genera does not change.

And if something dissolves the framework into itself, or dissolves them in a way that the multiple layers of 1-A can no longer be differentiated from each other, that is where High 1-A begins.

From our Omnipotence page:


Other than that, some of what I said is also derived from here (Specifically the Hierarchy section):

I will quote some small parts, but I recommend reading the entire section yourself if you have time:


Whereas, from the scan provided by the OP, it seems that the AllSpark/Matrix is:
  • Contains everything that has ever existed.
  • The wellspring from which every Essence emerges and returns to.
  • In the AllSpark everything is One, and has no individuality.
  • Is Infinity, Omnipresent and Omniscient compared to everything else.

I would say that should be enough. High 1-A is simply something that transcends the differentiation between 1-A layers, the same way 1-A transcends dimensional differentiation. The whole "Inaccessibility" itself can be achieved in a multitude of ways (For example, if it is Infinity, it gives that everything (Finiteness) cannot reach it).
Click to expand...
I think the genus/species framework you're using is the right lens here, and I agree that's a better argument than the
OP one. My only hesitation is whether the scan actually supports the specific claim that the differentiating framework itself dissolves, versus just the individual entities/essences losing distinction while still being generated by an external, unchanged hierarchy.

"The wellspring from which every Essence emerges and returns to" reads to me as compatible with a causal/origin relationship (the Matrix produces and reabsorbs things) without necessarily saying the framework that ranks those things collapses too. Is there a line in the scan (or elsewhere in the cosmology) that speaks to the framework/hierarchy itself, not just the entities within it? That's the part I'd want nailed down before treating this as settled rather than a plausible reading.

I think this is a good start and that we should continue along these lines and set aside the omniversal matrix for the time being, as it poses too many problems.
 
Optimus.negz said:
Using the Omniversal Matrix is likely to be complicated, given that we know nothing about it apart from the fact that it exists, in fact, even the Tree of Life is a complicated concept, given that it is only mentioned in G1 for five seconds and over a few pages of a book
Click to expand...
Tree of Life isn't really complicated to understand at all
 
Katipax said:
The argument, thought I was clear
Click to expand...
Ah my bad, here's the argument itself broken down:

Normally, the different 1-A layers/realms are ranked against each other by some shared property, think of it like rungs on a ladder. Each rung (layer) is different, but they're all still measured by the same ladder.

Raiki's argument is: the scan says everything, including those separate layers, dissolves into the AllSpark as one Unity with no individuality. If that's true, the AllSpark isn't just sitting higher up the same ladder, it's swallowing the ladder itself, the thing that made ranking those layers against each other possible in the first place stops applying to it. And "the ranking system that separates 1-A layers no longer applies to you" is literally the wiki's actual definition of High 1-A vs regular 1-A (not just "stronger," but operating one level of abstraction up).
 
Optimus.negz said:
Ah my bad, here's the argument itself broken down:

Normally, the different 1-A layers/realms are ranked against each other by some shared property, think of it like rungs on a ladder. Each rung (layer) is different, but they're all still measured by the same ladder.

Raiki's argument is: the scan says everything, including those separate layers, dissolves into the AllSpark as one Unity with no individuality. If that's true, the AllSpark isn't just sitting higher up the same ladder, it's swallowing the ladder itself, the thing that made ranking those layers against each other possible in the first place stops applying to it. And "the ranking system that separates 1-A layers no longer applies to you" is literally the wiki's actual definition of High 1-A vs regular 1-A (not just "stronger," but operating one level of abstraction up).
Click to expand...
So basically because the Allspark swallows the entire 1-A hierarchy, it gets to High 1-A because it's absorbing the hierarchy into itself as stated with one losing their individuality?
 
Optimus.negz said:
I think the genus/species framework you're using is the right lens here, and I agree that's a better argument than the
OP one. My only hesitation is whether the scan actually supports the specific claim that the differentiating framework itself dissolves, versus just the individual entities/essences losing distinction while still being generated by an external, unchanged hierarchy.

"The wellspring from which every Essence emerges and returns to" reads to me as compatible with a causal/origin relationship (the Matrix produces and reabsorbs things) without necessarily saying the framework that ranks those things collapses too. Is there a line in the scan (or elsewhere in the cosmology) that speaks to the framework/hierarchy itself, not just the entities within it? That's the part I'd want nailed down before treating this as settled rather than a plausible reading.

I think this is a good start and that we should continue along these lines and set aside the omniversal matrix for the time being, as it poses too many problems.
Click to expand...
i mean individuality dies in the matrix so theres that.
 
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