Challenging Unicron and Primus as multiversal

[Kavpeny]

Closing this thread since a verdict has been reached for now. SeiryuShi is welcome to re-open the thread, if he wishes to continue the discussion.

 

[SeiryuShin]

After helping Nexus Prime hide his five new pieces, Vector went into hiding in the universe Aurex 404.11 Kappa and locked away all memories of his trauma.

There, he became the Autobot's leader and wielded the Matrix of Leadership. He had a bodyguard, Scorpia, during his Matrix-bearer days, and the two became close despite the difference in rank (and his initial reluctance to act on his feelings for a subordinate). After leading the Autobots to victory in the Second Cybertronian War against such foes as Devron, Megazarak, and the Destructons, he was called on by the Chronarchitect to help fix damage to Time itself! Reluctantly, he passed the Matrix to Guardian Major.

With a group of fellows, the Time Warriors—Scorpia, medical officer Kaltor, intelligence officer Autoceptor, and quantum scientist Deceptor—Vector Prime faced foe and threat before discovering their true enemy, Mogahn the Mass, an indescribable entity that absorbed entire star systems into itself. In the final battle, Vector found his mind entering the Realm of the Primes and learning his true identity once more; Adaptus gifted him the power to create the mighty sword Rhisling, and he smote Mogahn so hard that his remains went back in time and detonated in the Big Bang.


Vector Prime's sword is higher than unicron's current status and he has no chance at all against Unicron

 

[SeiryuShin]

so you admit removing Unicron was wiping out continuity yet ignore the fact Vector Prime flat out states he wiped out all timelines, okay

 

[SeiryuShin]

"I'm also not accepting the scan of the FunPub comic in which the Star Saber is said to be able to collapse the multiversal stack. Firstly because it's dubious as that power level may very well only be capable if tainted by evil according to the writing, as the Star Saber is normally star-level."


Different incarnations of the Star saber do not have the same power as seen in Prime Universes

And no there is no indication this is only if it's "Tainted by evil" that's ridiculous, that's like saying the Triforce becomes multiversal if Ganon gets it which is not implied anywhere in the series

 

[SeiryuShin]

Dear Vector Prime,

Who is your arch nemesis?

.

.

Dear Opposite One,

I don't know as if I have a single arch nemesis. Certainly in my role as guardian of time and space, my most frequent opponent is Unicron, but he often seems barely aware of my existence. Sideways is, of course, a frequent morpho-thorn in my side. I once had a series of memorable encounters with Gigatron--the one hailing from Primax 603.0 Beta, I mean, with transmorphic regenerative abilities. Though, come to think of it, the Gigatron hailing from Primax 400.05 Alpha and his Destronger were also dimension hoppers.


Vector Prime flat out admits he can't even get Unicron's attention to the point he doesn't even seem aware of his existence

 

[Antvasima]

Just to make sure: Please wait to give Iustitia time to respond before making any changes. Thank you.

 

[Iustitia_Prime]

Once again I was blocked for disagreeing with SeiryuShin. I'd be tempted to accuse him of being a sore loser or abusing his power if I didn't already know he won't be responding any time soon. Regardless, now that I've been unblocked I will once again counter his arguments to once again appeal to the board for a consensus.

After helping Nexus Prime hide his five new pieces, Vector went into hiding in the universe Aurex 404.11 Kappa and locked away all memories of his trauma.

There, he became the Autobot's leader and wielded the Matrix of Leadership. He had a bodyguard, Scorpia, during his Matrix-bearer days, and the two became close despite the difference in rank (and his initial reluctance to act on his feelings for a subordinate). After leading the Autobots to victory in the Second Cybertronian War against such foes as Devron, Megazarak, and the Destructons, he was called on by the Chronarchitect to help fix damage to Time itself! Reluctantly, he passed the Matrix to Guardian Major.

With a group of fellows, the Time Warriors—Scorpia, medical officer Kaltor, intelligence officer Autoceptor, and quantum scientist Deceptor—Vector Prime faced foe and threat before discovering their true enemy, Mogahn the Mass, an indescribable entity that absorbed entire star systems into itself. In the final battle, Vector found his mind entering the Realm of the Primes and learning his true identity once more; [1]Adaptus gifted him the power to create the mighty sword Rhisling, and he smote Mogahn so hard that his remains went back in time and detonated in the Big Bang.

[2]Vector Prime's sword is higher than unicron's current status and he has no chance at all against Unicro

This is once again out of context nonsense from SeiryuShin.

First off, Vector Prime's defeat of Mogahn the Mass doesn't yield strength, durability, speed or destructive capacity stats. It only tells us that only after being given a time weapon could Vector Prime beat Mogahn even in his prime as a warrior.

The bolded feat is unquantifiable. Vector Prime's time hax cannot be used to yield DC. Vector Prime is a time guardian. He has time-space powers but there's way to know their full extent now nor at his prime against Mogahn.

The bolded scaling is rooted in falsehoods. No his sword's status isn't higher than Unicron's because SeiryuShin is making up its status by taking a feat out of context. All we know is that VP used a time weapon with unknown limits to send a powerful enemy back in time. The big bang part is also not a feat of VP. If anything it's a feat of Mogahn's, not VP or his sword as it's caused by a "detonation" which is not even explained.

Did VP's sword's power cause the detonation? Mogahn's absorbing power? We have nothing to go on except that VP defeated Mogahn only after a time weapon of unknown limits sent him back in time causing the big bang somehow.

In fact it makes sense that we know nothing specific because it's nothing but a paragraph of prose from the Ask Vector Prime Facebook page. BTW, we don't know how powerful VP used to be compared to now. He's nine billion years old. He tends to be portrayed as weaker with age.

However, since SeiryuShin loves taking obscure prose and Ask Vector Prime posts out of context to confirm his own assumptions, let's acknowledge the Ask Vector Prime posts that cast doubt on his ABC scaling. And by that I mean let's look at what SeiryuShin purposely left out of his argument because it makes them look stupid:

"Ask Vector Prime, July 12

Where did you get your sword Rhisling?

A: Dear Blade Buddy,

Oh ho, that is quite the tale! In days of long ago, after I assisted in hiding away my brother's five new individual selves, I too went into hiding, locking off my former memories of my kin and the battles and horrors we faced. In ancient days of Aurex 404.11 Kappa, I became the leader of the Autobots, and was granted that universe's manifestation of the Matrix of Leadership.

My Autobots and I faced many challenges; Devron, the Eater of Sparks; the dread warlord Megazarak; the Second-born Intellects calling themselves Destructons. Many stellar cycles after the titanic conclusion of the second Cybertronian war, I was called upon by the Chronoarchitect. Though I was reluctant to abandon my charges, I felt compelled, as if I had a higher calling. I passed the matrix to my faithful right hand, Guardian Major, and left to help mend damage that the Time Walker could not.

With me were the select few Autobots who chose to abandon all they knew to stand by my side. We were the Tine Warriors, composed of medical officer Kaltor, my bodyguard Scorpia, intelligence officer Autoceptor, and quantum scientist Deceptor. Our tasks were legion, and they were varied. We prevented the Magmatron of Primax 206.15 Gamma to falling prey to the X-Dimension, faced uncanny horrors in primeval Primax 514.3 Gamma, and making peaceful contact with the time-traveling natives of LV-117.

Eventually, we unearthed what was vexing the Chronoarchitect, the horrifying entity known as Mogahn the Mass. I fear that mere words are inadequate to describe the nightmare that Mogahn was, is, and is yet to be. Stars, planets, asteroids, ships, nebula, pulsars, and countless sentient beings were fused into his Mass, with all who resisted falling prey to his Cyber Caliber. Even the Chaos God, Unicron, tended to avoid realities where The Mass manifested. We fought against him in an endless array of realities, everywhere lives being subsumed into him. Hope seemed lost. Our final battle almost proved my end... and then time fell to a standstill. I found myself floating, for what felt like an eternity, in what was the home to the greatest Cybertronians. My home... the Realm of The Primes.

The Five of the Thirteen who dwelled there reached out to me, reminded me who I was, unlocked my long-sealed memories. I was no longer a humble Autobot leader, I was the Guardian of Space and Time, and no one, no thing, could stand in the way of my duties. My consciousness returned to the physical plain, and I wrest the Cyber Caliber from Mogahn's grasp. Using the gift that Amalgamous, who was then called Adaptus, gave to me, I reformatted it into a sword capable of slicing through time itself. With the last of my strength, I freed all the captive souls and sparks with the Mass, and sent what remained of him hurtling back screaming to the beginning of time, where his destruction became known as the Big Bang, creating the very reality we happened to be fighting in.

My purpose realized, I said a tearful farewell to my troops and friends and... lover, and became once again bound to my duties, but with a new determination I had never felt before. "

So what did SeiryuShin leave out? How about that the only reason Vector Prime's time slicing power worked on Mogahn to begin with was because he stole Mogahn's power source - the Cyber Caliber - and after transforming it into his time sword expelled Mogahn's captive power. SeiryuShin would have us believe that Vector Prime stomped some universe-gobbling enemy with his sword and hax alone, when he really beat him with plot-induced stupidity and by taking Mogahn's mcguffin power.

Or how about that Mogahn the Mass was so powerful that Unicron was afraid of him? Unicron, the one SeiryuShin claims can bust a multiverse, avoids manifesting in the same realities as Mogahn. Following SeiryuShin's absurd abuse of powerscaling, this means Vector Prime > Mogahn the Mass > Unicron > Vector Prime. This isn't Dragonball Z and this kind of scaling doesn't work in Transformers.

Even ignoring that half of VP posts are nothing but Hasbro's attempts at continuity error patchwork, VP never goes into specifics about power levels and even when he provides some kind of answer it's overshadowed by interal inconsistencies, doesn't allow for anime-style A>B>C logic, or outright makes no sense - even to Vector Prime who admits this in several posts about time mechanics. All we know is that in his prime Vector Prime with the time powers of Rhisling defeated Mogahn the Mass by taking his Cyber Caliber and de-powering him after fighting him across endless realities and almost dying in their final battle, that Unicron fears Mogahn the Mass in his usual power, and that Vector Prime in his current age struggles to keep up with the damage done by Unicron to time-space such as the shockwaves he emits that wipe out galaxies.

None of this even matters, though, because just as I thought SeiryuShin didn't have any actual feats to post for Unicron. He took out of context stories and used them to abuse power scaling to wank Unicron. No actual feats of Unicron's though, not even statements confirming he can bust a multiverse.

 

[Iustitia_Prime]

so you admit removing Unicron was wiping out continuity yet ignore the fact Vector Prime flat out states he wiped out all timelines, okay

Yet another example of SeiryuShin twisting facts. Except this time he completely ignored everything else I wrote.

Unicron is a multiversal singularity. This means his existence keeps a balance between order and chaos. Primus represents order, Unicron chaos. Removing either completely will result in devastating reality. BUT AGAIN, this is because of the nature of the TF multiverse, not something they can do under their own power. Because - AGAIN - Unicron's Grand Black Hole wasn't a feat of his.

The Grand Black Hole would eventually have destroyed the multiverse, but this would've taken a long time as again the entire Cybertron/Galaxy Force cartoon took place with the planet Cybertron either inside the black hole or right next to it depending on the dub. What Vector Prime actually says is that there's no future to look at, because the black hole eventually would devour the multiverse. Eventually. Again, an cartoon series took place without any damage caused to Cybertron. The only actual damage was "reality warping" which is Hasbro speak for writing off continuity errors. Yes, literally this black hole was an excuse for Hasbro to ignore the continuity problems resulting from shoehorning the Cybertron cartoon into the Armada/Energon timelines.

Regardless, the other thing the black hole did was pull Unicrons from across the multiverse into it. Say what? Yes, the black hole wasn't made by Unicron. On the contrary, Unicron was dead and his remaining essence at the end of Energon was trapped in an energon star. When this star collapsed into a black hole the essence of the main Unicron of the story became trapped in this black hole. This separation from reality caused the universe to become unbalanced. This black hole even pulled Unicrons from other timelines and universe into it. THAT is why it threatened to destroy the multiverse. Because every universe losing Unicrons meant the entire multiverse's balance was thrown off.

And I'm tired of explaining that. Unicron didn't make the black hole under his power. As the FunPub comics show, he trapped inside the singularity and only escaped when his heralds freed him by throwing an evil matrix into it. The black hole *threatening* the multiverse is not a feat of Unicron's. It's not even a feat at all.

 

[Iustitia_Prime]

"I'm also not accepting the scan of the FunPub comic in which the Star Saber is said to be able to collapse the multiversal stack. Firstly because it's dubious as that power level may very well only be capable if tainted by evil according to the writing, as the Star Saber is normally star-level."
Different incarnations of the Star saber do not have the same power as seen in Prime Universes

And no there is no indication this is only if it's "Tainted by evil" that's ridiculous, that's like saying the Triforce becomes multiversal if Ganon gets it which is not implied anywhere in the series

Funny, because according to the Covenant of Primus book, which is Prime canon, Unicron could be killed by trapping him in a star and becoming "fissioned out of existence". Know what else has standard star-level power? The Star Saber. Multiverse-busting to defeat Prime Unicron would be overkill, especially in a battle the Thirteen were seriously worried about.

Regardless, again, if the Star Saber can bust multiverses casually rather than as a result of tainting from evil, why would the Fallen need it? Why is it a danger in the hands of Unicron if SeiryuShin thinks he already has this power? The comic panels SeiryuShin keeps referencing shows Vector Prime as a spark of light which is what the Star Saber was intended to be wielded by. It then shows a picture of The Fallen complemented by the claim that evil was spreading and the multiverse could collapse if it fell into the hands of evil.

SeiryuShin can interpret that however he wants. Honestly, it doesn't matter. Unicron LOST to the Thirteen, the Star Saber among their weapons. Unicron was stomped so badly they sent his comatose body floating through space for so long that Earth formed around him. This is not up for debate. According to another page of the Covenant of Primus, Unicron only destroys planets and suns. He needs to to increase his power.

If Unicron was a multiverse-buster he wouldn't have to resort to absorbing stars, he wouldn't have been beaten by the Star Saber and the Thirteen, he wouldn't need the Star Saber, and the Star Saber - star or multiverse level power - falling into his hands wouldn't change anything thus making Nexus Prime's fears moot.

The writing suggests the Saber was only meant to be wielded by a spark of light; the corollary to that being it's not meant to be held by sparks of darkness. Either way, no feats for Unicron. Another attempt at bad scaling.

 

[Iustitia_Prime]

Dear Vector Prime,

Who is your arch nemesis?


Dear Opposite One,

I don't know as if I have a single arch nemesis. Certainly in my role as guardian of time and space, my most frequent opponent is Unicron, but he often seems barely aware of my existence. Sideways is, of course, a frequent morpho-thorn in my side. I once had a series of memorable encounters with Gigatron--the one hailing from Primax 603.0 Beta, I mean, with transmorphic regenerative abilities. Though, come to think of it, the Gigatron hailing from Primax 400.05 Alpha and his Destronger were also dimension hoppers.

Vector Prime flat out admits he can't even get Unicron's attention to the point he doesn't even seem aware of his existence

After rebutting SeiryuShin's prior scaling this point being made loses any meaning. Vector Prime beat Mogahn the Mass through mcguffin plot devices and only after nearly dying fighting him across realities and help from the other Primes. Unicron ignores smaller beings unless he can use them and Vector Prime has to deal with the quantum shockwaves resulting from Unicron's very existence. Unicron avoids Mogahn like the plague. Vector Prime isn't a universe buster, and Unicron doesn't even approach multiverse busting.

Regardless, once again an appeal to scaling rather than feats or concrete statements.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that the above seems reasonable, but please tone down the hostility towards Seiryu. He is senior admin here after all. Thank you.

 

[Iustitia_Prime]

Even though I know he isn't coming back to respond, I'd like to once again appeal to the community for a decision on this matter.

 

[Iustitia_Prime]

I think that the above seems reasonable, but please tone down the hostility towards Seiryu. He is senior admin here after all. Thank you.

Admin or not, the guy purposely blocked me twice so he wouldn't have to debate me. That said, I preferably will not need to direct any words towards him with his hiatus and this discussion being hopefully settled. I never look to for hostility; I just don't appreciate being treated poorly.

 

[Antvasima]

All right, but I would prefer if we can all stay civil. Thank you.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

so, is there a conclusion now?

 

[SeiryuShin]

I blocked you twice for adding incorrect information and I see nothing wrong with doing so, and I will do it again if you continue

 

[SeiryuShin]

"I'm also not accepting the scan of the FunPub comic in which the Star Saber is said to be able to collapse the multiversal stack. Firstly because it's dubious as that power level may very well only be capable if tainted by evil according to the writing, as the Star Saber is normally star-level."Different incarnations of the Star saber do not have the same power as seen in Prime Universes
And no there is no indication this is only if it's "Tainted by evil" that's ridiculous, that's like saying the Triforce becomes multiversal if Ganon gets it which is not implied anywhere in the series

Funny, because according to the Covenant of Primus book, which is Prime canon, Unicron could be killed by trapping him in a star and becoming "fissioned out of existence". Know what else has standard star-level power? The Star Saber. Multiverse-busting to defeat Prime Unicron would be overkill, especially in a battle the Thirteen were seriously worried about.
Regardless, again, if the Star Saber can bust multiverses casually rather than as a result of tainting from evil, why would the Fallen need it? Why is it a danger in the hands of Unicron if SeiryuShin thinks he already has this power? The comic panels SeiryuShin keeps referencing shows Vector Prime as a spark of light which is what the Star Saber was intended to be wielded by. It then shows a picture of The Fallen complemented by the claim that evil was spreading and the multiverse could collapse if it fell into the hands of evil.

SeiryuShin can interpret that however he wants. Honestly, it doesn't matter. Unicron LOST to the Thirteen, the Star Saber among their weapons. Unicron was stomped so badly they sent his comatose body floating through space for so long that Earth formed around him. This is not up for debate. According to another page of the Covenant of Primus, Unicron only destroys planets and suns. He needs to to increase his power.

If Unicron was a multiverse-buster he wouldn't have to resort to absorbing stars, he wouldn't have been beaten by the Star Saber and the Thirteen, he wouldn't need the Star Saber, and the Star Saber - star or multiverse level power - falling into his hands wouldn't change anything thus making Nexus Prime's fears moot.

The writing suggests the Saber was only meant to be wielded by a spark of light; the corollary to that being it's not meant to be held by sparks of darkness. Either way, no feats for Unicron. Another attempt at bad scaling.

Unicron had already been weakened at this point so it's not a point against unicron


Also saying he's barely universal due to the singularity taking time then Dimentio should be downgraded for the same reason, as his void hole which was eating a smaller multiverse was also taking time to do so

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I did agree to let him improve the quality of the regular Transformers profiles due to that they are in bad shape and seem unreliable overall. And the community at large agreed about letting him change the Unicron and Primus profiles.

Would you be willing to let him rework the regular profiles? I would appreciate it. Thanks.

 

[SeiryuShin]

I will keep the current changes and let him affect the others however I do not like the weak assumptions on ignoring a feat because "it took time" or "it only happened because chaos and order became unbalanced" - this would still mean unicron's existence upholds a significant portion of the multiverse


I've made my final changes to the page and will leave it as so

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

Can you accept the compromise of reworking the regular pages Iustitia? I would greatly appreciate it, as they are in a bad shape.

 

[Iustitia_Prime]

"I'm also not accepting the scan of the FunPub comic in which the Star Saber is said to be able to collapse the multiversal stack. Firstly because it's dubious as that power level may very well only be capable if tainted by evil according to the writing, as the Star Saber is normally star-level."Different incarnations of the Star saber do not have the same power as seen in Prime Universes
And no there is no indication this is only if it's "Tainted by evil" that's ridiculous, that's like saying the Triforce becomes multiversal if Ganon gets it which is not implied anywhere in the series

Funny, because according to the Covenant of Primus book, which is Prime canon, Unicron could be killed by trapping him in a star and becoming "fissioned out of existence". Know what else has standard star-level power? The Star Saber. Multiverse-busting to defeat Prime Unicron would be overkill, especially in a battle the Thirteen were seriously worried about.
Regardless, again, if the Star Saber can bust multiverses casually rather than as a result of tainting from evil, why would the Fallen need it? Why is it a danger in the hands of Unicron if SeiryuShin thinks he already has this power? The comic panels SeiryuShin keeps referencing shows Vector Prime as a spark of light which is what the Star Saber was intended to be wielded by. It then shows a picture of The Fallen complemented by the claim that evil was spreading and the multiverse could collapse if it fell into the hands of evil.

SeiryuShin can interpret that however he wants. Honestly, it doesn't matter. Unicron LOST to the Thirteen, the Star Saber among their weapons. Unicron was stomped so badly they sent his comatose body floating through space for so long that Earth formed around him. This is not up for debate. According to another page of the Covenant of Primus, Unicron only destroys planets and suns. He needs to to increase his power.

If Unicron was a multiverse-buster he wouldn't have to resort to absorbing stars, he wouldn't have been beaten by the Star Saber and the Thirteen, he wouldn't need the Star Saber, and the Star Saber - star or multiverse level power - falling into his hands wouldn't change anything thus making Nexus Prime's fears moot.

The writing suggests the Saber was only meant to be wielded by a spark of light; the corollary to that being it's not meant to be held by sparks of darkness. Either way, no feats for Unicron. Another attempt at bad scaling.

Unicron had already been weakened at this point so it's not a point against unicron


Also saying he's barely universal due to the singularity taking time then Dimentio should be downgraded for the same reason, as his void hole which was eating a smaller multiverse was also taking time to do so

Not a point against him? This is not an argument. Unicron lost to the Thirteen. I've already demonstrated that Unicron not only didn't create the singularity under his own power, not only did he trapped in the singularity, but it was the destabalizing affecting of pulling in other Unicrons that would've, eventually, destroyed the multiverse. Unicron had no say in it. Again, you're conflating Hasbro's "multiversal singualrity" concept as being directly relating to Unicron's destructive capacity which I've shown is wrong.

"Unicron vs _______?" Oh well Unicron wins! He just has to die, get stuck in a black hole and wait for the multiverse to collapse after an unknown amount of time due to unquanitifiable abstract logic. Seems legit. Unicron and Primus are anchored into their multiverse, but that doesn't mean either can erase or destroy it under their own power. The only way for either to do so is to remove the other as a concept triggering a chain effect across realities. Which will kill them as well eventually.

I will keep the current changes and let him affect the others however I do not like the weak assumptions on ignoring a feat because "it took time" or "it only happened because chaos and order became unbalanced" - this would still mean unicron's existence upholds a significant portion of the multiverse


I've made my final changes to the page and will leave it as so

And yet again you're not even trying to understand the arguments you're dismissing. I've already said that it's not a feat to begin with. I'm not ignoring a feat because it's outright not a feat to begin with. And it doesn't matter how important Unicron is the the TF multiverse; that's not nor has it ever been the question. The question is what is Unicron's destructive capacity and that very clearly has nothing to do with the Grand Black Hole. You've tried every trick in the book and none of them are going to work on someone actually familiar with the franchise. Your scaling doesn't work and your feats aren't feats.

Unicron has never demonstrated the power you attribute to him. Never, not once. The closest we get to even universal power is his pre-retcon chaos abstract form in the Marvel comics where he shook the universe trading blows with Primus, and even then when it came to his one time to actually destroy a universe on panel he's shown doing so by smashing objects.

 

[Iustitia_Prime]

Okay.

Can you accept the compromise of reworking the regular pages Iustitia? I would greatly appreciate it, as they are in a bad shape.

I want to work on the regular pages and that's what I went back to as soon as the original decision was made. And then I was blocked again. So no, sorry, you've been very cool about this as have the others here. But I will not have the threat of being blocked looming over my head for challenging SeiryuShin's opinion. Especially when he's demonstrably wrong and every point I've raised is logically sound or blatantly disproves his assertions. I don't want to contribute to a site that not only doesn't value my edits but also punishes me for my opinions even when the majority agree with me.


And again, Antvasima, just to remind you that I'm not trying to be hostile-

I blocked you twice for adding incorrect information and I see nothing wrong with doing so, and I will do it again if you continue

Yeah, screw that. I added no incorrect information and he can't cite anything false. Literally all he has is dubious powerscaling. He has no feats. None. Unicron may be a jobber like Galactus but at least Galactus has feats and statements backing up his reputation, whereas all Unicron has is "Well the Thirteen may possibly be multiversal if we make assumptions about a single panel in a discontinued comic arc so obviously Unicron is multiversal".

I will not work on the smaller pages until there's a change in standards for the largest pages. SeiryuShin as and admin can evidently do whatever he wants to the pages here or to whoever he wants without justification. That's not acceptable to me. But I'm not an egalitarian hippie. I respect hierarchy. I can't twist an admin's arms. If this place wants to buff Unicron and Primus through NF/OBD-level power scaling without basis, I have no right to change that. I tried to challenge it, and it's not going anywhere.

Like I told you already, Antvasima, I'm editing another wiki just for Transformers profiles. I will use the exact same format so that people here will be completely free to use my work. I'm just not going to devote my energy to fighting uphill battles against obtuse admins, especially when I get blocked before I can even respond or defend myself. Not trying to sound like a whiner, but it really is bull****

Again though, thank you for having treated me fairly, Antvasima. You've been cool. Shalom.

 

[GohanLSSJ2]

Yeah, Antvasima is cool like that. That's why we all love the guy.

As for your proposal... I'm still a bit on the fence there, but so far, your arguments seem fairly convincing.

 

[Iustitia_Prime]

This is an old topic, but I want to post an update. The Star Saber with the Origin Matrix has finally been reassembled in the FunPub comics and it took the power of the Star Saber, Origin Matrix as well as the Terminus Blade to carry out a multiversal feat of stengthening the dimensional walls between the universes of the Transformers multiverse. So as not to downplay how amazing a feat that truly is, I will say that the statement about the Star Saber collapsing the multiversal stack wasn't total hyperbole.

But my reasoning for mentioning this isn't to vindicate Unicron and Primus as being multiverse-busters, but rather to confirm the opposite. My claims early about the Thirteen Primes, especially Prima and his Star Saber, having a higher potential power than Unicron turned out to be correct. Ignoring that we already knew this as I referenced Unicron being stomped by the Thirteen Primes in Aligned continuity, the recent FunPub conclusion to Nexus Prime's hunt for the Star Saber ended with the Saber being reassembled and Nexus Prime using its power in conjunction with the Origin Matrix and Terminus blade to retcon multiversal singularities (characters who simulatenously exist across the multiverse as singular beings) away.

Including Unicron and Primus. The Thirteen Primes, or at least their artifacts, have thus been confirmed higher than Unicron and Primus as they had the power to retcon away the entire concept that Unicron, Primus and the Primes exist across all realities as singular beings. This is huge. This means all Unicrons and Primuses are different now, not part of a larger primal entity. Whereas all Unicrons in fiction were emanations of the larger chaos god Unicron, now they're individual Unicrons and the same goes for Primus.

Even if Unicron and Primus were multiverse-busters under their own power rather than through unquantifiable quantum fuckery, it doesn't matter anymore. The new canon by Hasbro has shattered the larger multiversal Unicron and Primus entities:

http://fdzeta.com/subir/images/5j9QO.jpg

http://fdzeta.com/subir/images/ziEey.jpg

As such, I'd like to request that the Unicron and Primus pages be unlocked so that they can be revised to better reflect their current placings. Thank you.

 

[Charlie_Staz]

but they are orare or are not multiversal-buster?