League of Legends Country Level Characters' Revision Thread

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/505298#77

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/505298#79

Ok, so I wanted to highlight and discuss the ratings we've given to the Tier 6-B's in LOL as most of them have nothing justifying their rank save for scaling to Anivia & Lissandra without a proper reason to justify the scaling. This is only for AP and Durability stats, with other outdated stats to be replaced by the standard stats we use. It'll be a bit long so bear with me.

The champs in question are:


Freljord

Anivia, Lissandra, Ashe, Sejuani


Shurima

Azir, Xerath, Nasus, Renekton


Aspects of Targo

Leona, Pantheon, Diana, Taric


Celestials

Bard, Soraka


Others

Jax, Wukong, Aatrox, Illaoi, Jericho Swain, Jarvan Lightshield IV, Brand


Main Problems

Most of the stat justifications are nothing more than "A is a B/C/D, can do something, is said to be super strong/is a leader of nation/on par with E/F/G and so is comparable to every other 6-B character in game, including Anivia and Lissandra". My problem with this is that there are no valid sources supporting most of them (like lore feats/developer statements/etc.), especially old lore feats, which are now outdated since the Institute of War and the League itself was retconned away, and if there are any feats, they haven't been properly quantified. Thus, it comes off as very inaccurate when compared to their lore where there isn't anything that proves that they do deserve their current stats. Jax, Wukong and Illaoi are examples of this. Jax himself has 2 sections in his lore: one for Pre-Retcon and one for Post-Retcon when only the Post-Retcon lore should matter as it's the official one approved by Riot.


There is also the problem of scaling characters who have no real connections/interactions with each other and haven't really shown that they are comparable to each other (for example, saying that Aatrox is a Darkin, one of the strongest races in Runeterra and so should be comparable to Ascendants, Lissandra and Anivia). They haven't encountered each other at all save in the Rift (which isn't canon anymore) and there is a logical jump taken to think that just because they are the strongest in their region (Demacia, Noxus) that they can take on what is basically an immortal cryophoenix who can cause blizzards when dying without any hard evidence like interaction/feats/WoG to suggest that they are on the same scale. Same goes for Ascendants, the Freljord Triangle, the Darkin and the Targonian Aspects. It'd be like saying that Krillin and the Androids are comparable to Goku and Vegeta as they are the strongest beings on DB Earth. Sure, they're stronger than almost everyone else, but no one would put Krillin in the same tier as Goku or Vegeta simply because he doesn't have the feats.

I'd rather rate them based on what feats they've shown, plus scaling within their groups/regions they are from (like Xerath, Nasus, Renekton and Azir should all be comparable, with possibly Xerath as the strongest due to his Ascension). Jarvan and Swain then get scaled to other Demacian/Noxian champs, Aspects within each other and so on. I'll list down the changes below based on regions:

Note: If not specified, the changes would be scaled to Garen's stats, since we've been using those for most of the updated profiles (This may change in future updates if Garen's lore doesn't support those stats, as in he is shown to be hurt by normal blades and such, aka Tier 9-8 stuff). I'll also be using the lore given on Universe for most of the changes, as they're the main source of current official lore (save for a few which Riot haven't updated yet). The LOL wiki has many unsourced statements, so using them as evidence is not possible unless there is an official source.

Freljord

The scaling here was Anivia = Lissandra = Ashe = Sejuani (the last 2 because they had supposedly fought evenly in the past, though there is no proof that such an event ever happened).

Anivia ― No real changes needed, only a few questions regarding creating blizzards and durability. Does it count as Environmental Destruction, and if so, would it affect her stats in anyway? Also, would we rate her as a glass cannon (as in high AP but low Durability) or just assume her to have similar AP & Durability unless shown otherwise (as neither examples have been shown)? If changes occur, then they follow the wiki standard.

Lissandra ― Same questions as above (in her case, does being an Iceborn affect her stats in any way?), and get rid of the base & full power ratings, as the League doesn't exist anymore and in her lore, there's no mention of her sealing her own power. We also don't know if she can freeze the world over by herself, only that she wants to, so 6-A is not possible. Scaling to Brand/the Frozen Watchers is also not possible as Brand's lore has no mention on how strong he really is, just that he wants to burn the world and the same applies to the Watchers. Downgrade to 6-B.

Ashe & Sejuani ― These two are tricky, as they haven't fought Lissandra, Anivia or each other yet (it's not mentioned anywhere) so scaling them via that is not possible. They also haven't shown any feats on that level so I would downgrade them to the standard level. While Ashe has shown that she awakened her own hidden power when using Avarosa's bow, and it's likely that Sejuani has her own powers, nothing revealed so far supports the hypothesis that they could take on Liss by themselves (we don't know a lot about True Ice weapons and such, and how Liss would deal with attacks from them). Downgrade both to Standard level, possibly higher AP only depending on how strong their True Ice weapons and magical powers combined are.

Shurima

Note: Ascendants have never shown any interaction with Anivia/Lissandra and there are no statements suggesting that they are as strong as them so no scaling is possible here.

The scaling here was and should be basically Xerath at the top followed by Azir, Nasus and Renekton in no order, scaled from Nasus, with the Country level stuff coming from equating their power to Anivia/Lissandra's power. Xerath is at the top due to him being stronger than the average Ascendant due to specific circumstances.

Nasus -Was shown to be wounded by a sword in his short story Ouroboros, but could send people flying 30 feet with a swing and cause a small sandstorm in Bloodline. Also, fought against Xerath and caused a lot of damage to the cities in which they fought. This would be a downgrade to standard levels, maybe higher by scaling to other Ascendants. Downgrade to Standard level, possibly higher (7-C) due to status as Ascendant/possible scaling to other Ascendants.

Renekton ― Should be superior physically to Nasus (as he was a powerful warrior to Nasus' scholar) but has not shown any Country level feats, so a downgrade like Nasus. Downgrade to Standard level, possibly higher (7-C) due to status as Ascendant/possible scaling to other Ascendants.

Azir ― When revived as an Ascendant, he raised the entire city of Shurima, including the massive gold sun-disc in without effort (in his video) by manipulating the sand and the disc. Should be comparable to other Ascended, so a downgrade due to lack of Country level feats. Downgrade to Standard level, possibly higher (7-C or higher via Telekinesis) due to status as Ascendant/possible scaling to other Ascendants.

Xerath ― Was causing a lot of damage to Verakura in Bloodline and proved himself superior to Nasus when they fought, however no Country level feats means a downgrade. Should be superior to Azir due to taking in a lot of magic by hijacking Azir's Ascension. Downgrade to Standard level, possibly higher (7-C or higher by scaling to Azir) due to status as Ascendant/possible scaling to other Ascendants.

Aspects of Targo

Note: Aspects have never shown any interaction with Anivia/Lissandra and there are no statements suggesting that they are as strong as them so no scaling is possible here.

The scaling here is Leona = Diana = Pantheon = Taric, with Country level stuff coming from equating their power to that of Anivia/Lissandra's. They should still be equal with each other.

Leona ― She can summon a ray of solar energy from the sky and draws her powers from the sun, but nothing shown that would warrant her being kept at her current tier. So, this would be a downgrade. Downgrade to Standard level, possibly higher (?) due to status as Aspect.

Pantheon ― Should be equal to Leona, so downgrade. Downgrade to Standard level, possibly higher (?) due to status as Aspect.

Diana - Should be equal to Leona, so downgrade. Downgrade to Standard level, possibly higher (?) due to status as Aspect.

Taric - Should be equal to Leona, so downgrade. Downgrade to Standard level, possibly higher (?) due to status as Aspect.

Celestials

Note: Celestials have never shown any interaction with Anivia/Lissandra, however there are some statements suggesting that they are as strong as them so some scaling is possible here.

Both characters have circular scaling linking back to the Ascendants, the Aspects and each other, however, any mention of Celestial power is not available, so I'm not sure where to exactly put them.

Bard ― No real info on where he stands in the rankings, but should be superior to the likes of Anivia/Lissandra as a Celestial, so should be around 6-B. No real changes unless or until we get more info.

Soraka ― As a Celestial, should be equal to Bard. Same as above.

Others

Note: These characters have never shown any interaction with Anivia/Lissandra and there are no statements suggesting that they are as strong as them so no scaling is possible here.

Everyone here was scaled to Anivia/Lissandra via the League, save for Illaoi, who had one line (without sources or explanation) justifying her stats. As the League is non-canon, no real reason to keep outdated and incorrect info on the profiles.

Jax ― Old lore has been retconned, so no need to keep it and any stats based on it at all. New lore does not have him stomping Garen, as it is not mentioned anywhere in Garen's or Jax's lore and Riot hasn't given any hint of a connection between him and Jax. Garen is one of Jarvan IV's personal bodyguards as part of the Dauntless Vanguard, not a random soldier working for Fiora's family and trying to evict Jax from her bridge. Still should get standard rating by rough scaling from Fiora (who was about to fight him at the end of Jax's story). Downgrade to Standard level.

Wukong ― Old lore has been retconned, so no need to keep it and any stats based on it at all. New lore has him training with Yi and no connections to Jax, so one can scale him to Yi. Should still get the standard level. Downgrade to Standard level.

Aatrox -No real updates anytime soon, and his lore doesn't say much about how strong he really is. Falls into the same category as the Aspects where no feats of note are really shown, so he should be downgraded. Downgrade to Standard level.

Illaoi ― The Black Mist is unquantified, and nothing in the lore suggests that she fought all of it off, only that she faced the strongest spirits (like Hecarim as an example). So, a downgrade here. Downgrade to Standard level.

Jericho Swain ― Same as Jax & Wukong, in that the old lore is gone, no need to rate him by it. While his current lore doesn't say much about his power, he is the current leader of Noxus, where meritocracy is praised and powerful leaders are valued. He will be getting lore updates when the Urgot rework comes out in 4 months for a Noxus story event, but until then, a downgrade for him. Downgrade to Standard level.

Jarvan Lightshield IV ― Same as above, nothing more to say. Not sure if really superior to Garen/Fiora, but should still be on the same level as them. Downgrade to Standard level.

Brand ― Brand's tricky, as nothing in his current lore on Universe gives any concrete info about his power level, however, he was mentioned in Shuriman lore as a threat to the Ascended (Nasus and Renekton once had to seal him in a magical sarcophagus, which they later tried to use against Xerath) and he was later found in True Ice (the fire spirit, not his current flesh body, Kegan Rodhe). Nothing to justify his current stats though, so a downgrade for him. Downgrade to Standard level.

Overall, those are the changes I want to propose, so discuss away on whether the updates/changes should be implemented or not.

I'll leave comments on other characters after more input has been shared.


I will just bring here an info about a particular Celestial champion mentioned above that was missed before; Bard. Bard is the creator of the various history-telling constellations that appeared in his lore (the actual stellar constructs), as confirmed by his developers.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.c...e/Ev3qQR4G-bard-qa-completed?comment=00020000

The last constellation he built before his Ascension from Runeterra did not exist in the cosmos just 1-2 human generations ago, as the developer confirms. We now know it is Bard who built it.

That would make him a 4-A character only behind Aurelion Sol (excluding skin canons such as Dark Stars and Cosmic Reaver), another Celestial in the main canon. This is also supported by the fact that both characters are generally regarded as near-equals.

This may contribute to the rating of other Celestials that exist today or may appear in the future.


I will wait for more input to participate.

Not bad, not bad at all. Very detailed and I agree that there has been a lot of circular scaling here and there alongside questionable feats. Although I slightly disagree with the country feat on Azir but then again there's never been a full scope of Shurima and it could be just Environmental DC.

Furthermore I think we can make a separate page for Targonians (the Empire, not the Aspects on Runeterra), to account for their stellar feats and intergalactic telepathy and travel capability.

Regarding Azir, the Shurima feat is for the city of Shurima, not the region as a whole. There may be a bit of confusion regarding this so just to make it clear: Shurima is also the main capital as well as the region's name, in Azir's feat we are referring to the city only.

Alright, i'm gonna give a long reply to this, but im just gonna say that we have several profiles that have sections for characters before and after a retcon, The Brothers Yin and Yang and Beyonder (Pre-Retcon) and Beyonder (Post-Retcon), so i see no reason why we cant do the same here

In their case, there are still comic books and storylines in which they are featured and which still haven't been erased from Marvel history (as in all copies deleted and such). Not the case for most of the champs with new lore as their old lore has been deleted and all storylines prior to retcons are all gone (save for wikis). There's no real reason other than nostalgia to keep them still if we want accuracy in our profiles. Even then, some of the pages don't even have proper sections for pre-retcon and post-retcon stuff, so I'd rather have a standard that can be and is applied to all pages.

Those lores still exist though, theyre just not the current canon. The profiles would still be prefectly accurate with pre-retcon stats so long as they are seperated from the currently canon stats.

The lores are not considered canon anymore and are rebooted. This isn't as if they're going to come back anytime soon. That's why old abilities shouldn't be included in the new profiles either. That would be like including the abilities of a retconnected character to a new one. Not only that it also creates inconsistencies with certain characters. For one thing Galio's abilities hasn't been updated (old abilities aren't removed) and create an inconsistency with his actual character

Star Wars Legends aren't canon at all

However, I believe one of a wikipedia's functions is serving archive and documentary purposes.

I think this particular wiki is serving it well as well.

I agree with this, but iirc, this is the old lore right? The ones that are yet to get changed?

But yeah, this needs to get cleared up.

Dammit, there were dev statements for Illaoi fighting the Black Mist and the connection between the Darkin, Iceborn, and Ascendants and now i cant find them..........

Got deleted? Not good then.

Ya think?

I'm almost done with my response, gimme a few more minutes

Jarvan and Swain then get scaled to other Demacian/Noxian champs, Aspects within each other and so on.

Im gonna wait for perp on the whole Jarvan Swain thing, tbqh im not even sure why theyre rated what they currently are myself...Also, with Jarvan's new lore about him fighting Winter's Claw mambers he could have possibly encountered Sejuani at some point.

Freljord

Anivia Considering she's an ice elemental, the physical embodiment of ice magic, the fact that she can create Country level ice storms should scale to her general AP

Lissandra If we're removing her High 6-A stats then she should just be 6-B due to Anivia fearing her power to the point where she needed to ally with Ashe in order to defeat her.

Ashe & Sejuani While its true they never fought Lissandra or each other, Ashe and Sejuani wield the weapons of their ancestors, which harmed Lissandra when Avarosa and Serylda fought against her and the Frozen Watchers and harmed each other in "The War of The Three Sisters". Plus, why would Anivia ally herself with Ashe to defeat Lissandra if she were immesely weaker than her or Lissandra. Also, whatever we decide to do would scale to Olaf as well as he fought Sej to a standstill.

Shurima If anything they should be at least City level due to Xerath sinking the capital city of Shurima into the desert with just a small portion of his new and uncontrolled power, Nasus and Renekton fighting him to a standstill (With Renekton fighting him for thousands of years after they improsoned him), and Azir casually raising the city back out of the desert moments after he ressurected.

Aspects of Targo The Aspects of Targon were previously scaled to Leona's creation of a solar flare the size of Mount Targon, but since that is outdated we dont have anything to go off of...unless you count Leona causing an early dawn in her story:

"Sudden light flared ahead, sunlight gleaming brightly. Impossible. Dawn was an hour or more away. The leader raised a callused hand as he saw a lone figure standing athwart the settlement's street. He grinned as he saw it was a woman. Finally, something worth plundering. Light inflamed her, and the grin fell from his face as he stepped closer and saw she was clad in ornate warplate. Auburn hair spilled from a golden circlet and sunlight glinted from her heavy shield and long-bladed sword. ... Leona could not allow that and thrust her sword into the earth. She reached deep inside herself, drawing on the awesome power from beyond the mountain. The sun emerged from behind its highest peaks as Leona thrust her hand to the light. She dropped to one knee and slammed her fist on the ground. And sunfire rained from the sky."

This along with the Aspects destroying a star whenever Aurelion Sol disobeyed them:

"Outraged, he fought these controlling impulses and attempted to break his bonds by force, only to discover that for each attack against his newfound masters, one of his stars vanished forever from the firmament. A powerful magic now yoked Aurelion Sol, forcing him to wield his powers exclusively for Targon's benefit."

Might lead to a possible upgrade?

Celestials

They were scaled to the Ascendants and the Aspects as the power they gave them was just a small fraction of their true power. However, what Heinkel brought up earlier would make Bard and Celestial Soraka 4-A, with fallen Soraka at Low 7-C

Jax Already covered my take on the retconned lore, but looking at his new lore youre right, it's never stated that he stomped Garen. That part should be changed.

Wukong Same thing as Jax, keep pre and post retcon stats.

Aatrox Irritated that i cant find the dev stating that he's comparable to them...

Illaoi Dammit...there was a dev statement about this too but i cant find it. This would also apply to Nautilus to an extent as he actually fought off half the Black Mist, The equivalent of Gangplank, MF, and their respective armadas combined.

Brand He's already rated as Low 7-C, with a seperate section for when he is at his full power, which would scale to whatever we decide Nasus and Renekton would be. This would in turn scale to Lissandra, who sealed Brand in Lokfar.

I think the Targonian feat is a 4-B feat by causing a supernova that's powerful enough to drown the light of nearby stars due to its brightness. Supernova typically destroys all of the solar system around the home star.

That's how I know when even one of my darlings winks out from existence, ejecting jets of energy and, with it, the very substance of my own spirit. I see her death knell in the heavens above. She shines brightly one last time in a pyroclasm that momentarily drowns her brothers and sisters. My heart shatters as the heavens are diminished in brutal retribution for turning my power on one of Targon's own.

Jarvan and Swai: my thoughts are as stated above, best to scale them to the champs in their region, as no interactions with other champs from different regions are mentioned when they should be (like Sejuani for Jarvan when it's stated that he met brigands from her clan). For Jarvan that would be Garen since they've trained together since their teenage years (as Garen belongs to a family dedicated to protecting the Demacian Royalty), and for Swain it would be Darius -> Garen as Noxian rule is decided by who is the strongest (a form of meritocracy) and Swain would not be the GG of Noxus unless he had the strength to prove it. Swain's lore may be updated when Urgot's rework comes out in 4 months, with a Noxus story event as hinted at by a Rioter.

Freljord


Anivia: No real problems here then. Stays at 6-B.


Lissandra: Same as Anivia's then, unless you want to scale her to Brand, who would most likely be a tier lower then her (considering that he may have been sealed by her, since it's not confirmed but hinted at).

Ashe & Sejuani: The problem with this is that we don't know how the weapons enhance them, whether it increases their general strength and toughness overall or just awakens hidden magical power (which may or may not enhance their strength and toughness to an unknown level) like it did for Ashe (let her form ice arrows with her bow). Note that they are still relatively human for a Runeterran and not Iceborn like Liss or their ancestors. The True Ice weapons may get the AP upgrade, but I'm not sure about the durability upgrade for both.

As for Anivia and Ashe being allies, it could be for other reasons than just being equal in power, perhaps Ashe has an army, good leadership qualities and some powerful (but not on Anivia's level) allies who can help them take down Liss. Anivia could simply be the strongest of them all. They don't necessarily have to be equals, it could be something like the Avengers or the Justice League where different characters who aren't all equal in power but have different roles in the team/alliance (some are brute force fighters, others are tacticians and some are just for the enemy mooks). Overall, nothing really supports that Ashe and Sej = Anivia in terms of AP & Durability save for non-existent hype. Regarding Olaf, you could always scale Sej from him rather than the other way round as Olaf has actual feats from Shadow and Fortune where he survives being eaten by a giant squid/Kraken and other things on his mission to die a glorious death.

Sejuani might be getting some updates during the Vanguard/Tank Class Rework in the Mid-Season patches as she's been slated to receive major changes, so there is that.

Shurima: In agreement here, then it means that Brand scales to Nasus/Renekton and him to possibly low-end Lissandra (if you want to stretch it that far).

Aspects of Targo: Regarding the star destruction feat, it would most likely be rated as hax used by the Targonian Empire like Heinkel Astrea suggested rather than related to the Aspects themselves as an earlier version of Pantheon was killed by Sol's valley busting feat. So overall it should be a downgrade, but putting them on the higher level than most champs, between say Garen tier and Ascendant tier, as there's nothing really pushing them up (unless the sunfire feat is calculable).

Celestials: In agreement here as well.

Jax & Wukong: No real reason to keep the old lore stuff as it's been erased from all official stuff. Regarding the comparison to profiles like the Beyonder (pre- and post-retcon), the pre-retcon comics are still there for viewers to see while the old lore mentioning the League/IOW is all gone, even from the LOL wiki save for some unofficial references here and there.


Aatrox: Hey, even Riot doesn't know that he's in their game, so I don't blame you. Hopefully he gets updated some time soon (unlikely). Either way, should still be a downgrade to Garen tier.

Illaoi: Same as Aatrox's changes, though she's more popular.

Brand: No problems with scaling to Nasus/Renekton. Though do you still want to scale that to Lissandra? It would make her City level (which would be a low-end to the Country level scaling she gets from Anivia).

Overall, we still need more thoughts on this so post away and hopefully we can reach a consensus and make some changes.

@Regis

I'm 99% sure that Sol's feat shouldn't be accounted as "just" busting a valley. If it's an attack from Sol, we could easily say it's just Tier 4, seeing as how he's that tier at minimum. It's like trying to downgrade Buu because he was blown apart by Vegeta's Final Explosion that caused MCB level damage.

Sol's lore actually says that he was appalled at how Pantheon commanded him to throw a star at the Void rift, as if such a crude attack could 'cauterize' it.

She wants me to hurl a star at the rift, as if one can simply cauterize such moldering inter-dimensional abrasions and be done with it.

These obtuse demigods are my captors?


It's very possible that the said attack was much more powerful than a Star level feat, only focused (the Starfire ultimate) to destroy the rift only so as not to destroy the planet together.

Power levels can be adjusted and one can use a different amount of energy against someone. I don't think Sol had the intention of using a star powered attack against the likes of Pantheon. I think that's what Regis is referring to. I mean why would you unleash a nuke against an ant that you look down upon? And the captive control magic could be something else.

Everything seems legit from what I'm seeing though.

That said I believe in Sol staying in Tier 4 but Aspects being Tier 4 is a bit... startling.

Honestly I think Aurelion Sol should be more at Tier 3, due to multiple quotes supporting galaxy feats, especially in his Launch Announcement itself.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/ne...elease/aurelion-sol-star-forger-available-now

Aurelion Sol, the Star Forger, available now
By fizzNchips

League, meet Aurelion Sol. Aurelion Sol, League.

Bring fiery oblivion to entire galaxies with Ashen Lord Aurelion Sol for 1350 RP, or explore the final frontier with his champion launch bundle for 1837 RP (normally 2325 RP), available through 3/28.


The energy gap between Tier 4 and Tier 3 is billions to trillions of times, so I have doubts that a Tier 4 character is capable of reliably obliterating a multiple number of entire galaxies.

I suggest putting 3-B as Aurelion Sol's primary rating, in this manner:

3-B (capable of obliterating entire galaxies)

Jarvan and Swain: Yeah...i guess we'd have to do this. While i'd still like Perp's opinion on this part it looks like this would be the most logical way to go about this.

Lissandra/Brand: Nah, it would make sense for Lissandra to be so much stronger than Brand that she could casually seal him whereas Nasus and Renekton combined struggled greatly to defeat him. 6-B Liss, At least 7-B Brand.

Ashe/Sejuani: Except they are direct descendants of their Iceborn anscestors, which lore-wise hints that they have some greater power. But Ashe wields the same bow that harmed Lissandra and Serylda, and considering Serylda would have 6-B durability due to the fact that she wields a physical weapon, Ashe should have a similar AP. The same with Sejuanni except she would have the durability to match due to wielding Serylda's True Ice Flail. Olaf is pretty much just gonna go along with whatever we end up rating Sej.

Shurima: Without the statement we cant really scale them to Lissandra, so they'd be At least 7-B.

Aspects of Targon: What of Leona moving the sun? And Sol's valley-busting feat was the backlash of bombarding a Void portal with newborn stars so claiming its just busting a valley is a biiiiit of an understatement.....

Celestials: So 4-A Celestials.

Jax & Wukong: Im still heavily opposed to removing the pre-retcon stuff, and no it hasnt been removed its just been moved to the history section of their respective profiles. Hell we even have an entire profile devoted the the entirely retconned Summoners

Aatrox/Illaoi: Unfortunately i have to agree with you, in genuinely upset that the only proof we had for the scaling for them is now gone. And the worst part is the statement itself is still up on the LoL wikia, but the link to the statement is gone...

So...should i fix the stuff we've agreed on while so we can just focus on the other stuff or...?

Sorry for the delay, I had a bunch of things to take care of elsewhere. I'll just split my thoughts into separate sections about the changes to be made.

Confirmed Changes (this can happen now, regardless of how discussion on other characters go)

Jarvan, Swain, Lissandra, Brand, Aatrox, Illaoi, the Shuriman Ascendants and the Celestials

Things still to discuss

Ashe & Sejuai: I personally feel that we're making a lot of generous assumptions to justify that they should still be Country Level characters. So far all we know is that they're descended from Lissandra's sisters and have some magical abilities of their own (that only Ashe has shown so far). We have nothing to suggest that they are on the same level as Anivia or Lissandra save for hype based on Ashe and Sejuani being descendants of Avarosa & Serylda, which then leads into them having similar magical powers/abilities as Avarosa/Serylda/Lissandra, 2 of whom have little to no feats save that they fought against the Frozen Watchers and Lissandra and they won (with Avarosa being later killed by Lissandra, who corrupted a Freljord tribe and began to wipe out any knowledge on the Frozen Watchers), and that they wield True Ice magical weapons.

The problem with this is that we don't know the details on exactly how strong the two characters are, and what they've shown in their current lore does not justify them being at Tier 6. They have no Country busting feats, no fights with Country level characters (this might change in the future) and so we can't justify them being put there. Comparing them to their ancestors is again not possible since we don't know exactly how they stack up since their ancestors also have no relevant feats in detail to compare to. Defeating the Frozen Watchers isn't enough since we don't know whether they were beaten with raw power or hax. We don't know if descendants are as strong as their ancestors. We can assume them to be weaker since Avarosa & Serylda were Iceborn and Ashe & Sejuani aren't (since Iceborns are generally superior to Runeterran humans). So overall no real comparisons can be made between the two pairs. There's also the problem of scaling to/from Olaf, since he has his own feats in Shadow & Fortune, which would seem like a massive low-end/PIS if he were Tier 6 (considering he was struggling against sea monsters in Bilgewater). If Ashe/Sejuani were kept at Tier 6, where would he be then? We can't just dismiss these feats since they are canon as well (more so than a lot of the Frejlord stuff).

Regarding their magical talents, which we know Ashe has, not sure about Sejuani's since it's not mentioned in her lore but can be assumed to be present, the problem lies again in lack of feats and statements. Once again, nothing that justifies their Tier 6 rating.

As for the weapons, we have no details or clues on how they or anything made of True Ice works. We don't know how strong the ice arrows are, whether their power increases based on how much magical power one puts into making/summoning them and if so, where is the limit. Same goes for Sejuani's flail, where we have no idea of how it works (in terms of magical powers, whether it is an inherent property or can be manipulated by one's magical strength). We also don't know anything about the properties of True Ice, save that it's super strong, can be manipulated by powerful mages and can be used in making weapons, whether as material or to cool down metals (Olaf's axes were quenched in True Ice).

So overall, we don't know a lot about how strong they are and rating them as Tier 6 based on hype is very misleading and can lead to confusion if in newer lore they are indicated to have a different level of power. It would be better to rate them as Low 7-C for now, and make any changes like upgrades or downgrades when we get new info on them. Otherwise we would have to put them at Unknown, since there isn't any proof that would meet the standard required by the wiki.

Final Thoughts: Low 7-C for both of them (and Olaf) and make changes later with newer, better information.


Aspects of Targo: I have no real idea on how to rate the sun feat, so perhaps that needs some examining. Is the sun actually moving or is it an illusion, if it is moving; is moving the sun based on strength of an Aspect's magical powers/Targonian magic and if so, how strong does that make them? As for Sol's feat, again, how do we rate? Is it hax, raw power or both? We know that he was holding back, but how much? Like Ashe and Sejuani, not much was explained about the Aspects' full power in detail and they have very few usable feats.

Final Thoughts: I'd rate them as 7-C, possibly higher and this might change based on how you treat the sun feat.


Jax & Wukong: For me, it's about sticking to a standard that we can use for other pages, considering that most of their pre-retcon lore is gone (and we're removing the rest of it with these changes). There's no real reason to make exceptions for Jax & Wukong, save for personal preference, and if so, how would we rate them? We have nothing to reference or look back to save for LOL wiki pages (which have outdated references). Overall, I feel it's better to stick to a standard that can be applied to all pages in the LoL subsection here, including any new characters/reworks.

Regarding the Summoners page, I will personally say that I didn't want it here, since they don't exist anymore and so have no real feats (even Lee Sin's lore was changed from being a Summoner in training to being a mage atoning for his mistake). Sure, if you want you can keep the Summoners page, but that has no real influence on the pages of Jax & Wukong save that they both have outdated info.

Final Thoughts: They shouldn't keep their old lore for the sake of clarity and simplicity, due to lack of references. Both should be around Low 7-C (Jax for scaling to possibly Fiora, as she was getting ready to duel him at the end of his short story, while Wukong for scaling to Yi, who taught him the Wuju Style).

I will try to reply later but I may be delayed with other stuff, so don't worry if I haven't replied immediately, as I usually take time to notice, read replies and formulate my thoughts.

Agreeing with most of that and take your time.

Also I agree. Keeping old abilities when there's been a retcon is a bit of a showcase of bias especially when said abilities contradict the newer form of characters. Some just don't make sense after all and we can't just keep all of them if they don't make sense and especially if there's a been a retcon. The best we can do is separate them by keys but otherwise it's not fair at all to keep them.

Talking about 'bias', VSbattles has a rating system for MOBA characters that use hybrid of lore and gameplay. Mook level Overwatch characters have MHS speed due to outrunning abstracted gameplay stuff.

The same system allows Jax to have lightspeed reactions. However, it's a system that makes it hard to argue that Jax can't dodge Overwatch lasers, if those verses are pitted against each other specifically.

So I don' think LoL is the only game that benefits from gameplay mechanics. I don't think it indicates a particular bias.

@Regis

If a character has incredibly drastic changes with a retcon, which changes both his backstory and power, I don't see why they can't have two keys for. Beyonder has several keys and two pages just for the various different retcons he's had, and I don't see why Jax/Wukong can't have that exception as well. The lore still exists, it's just not canon anymore.

Ashe & Sejuani/Olaf: Shrug Aight

Aspects of Targon: She made the sun rise a full hour earlier than is should have. Ive talked to TheEverlasting about this and consulting out out page for scaling the movement of celstial bodies would make the feat low-end Star level. Considering this would be consistent with the Aspect's ability to destroy stars when Sol disobeys them...

As for Sol's feat, again, how do we rate? Its absolutely raw power. Sol creates galaxies on a whim and can create stars so casually its not even funny. He was holding back immensely when he destroyed that Void rift, only using a few stars and some raw starfire to do it.

Jax & Wukong: Except having Pre and Post retcon stats isnt going against the standard we use here...There is a reason, pre and post retcon Jax and Wukong are two ENTIRELY different characters power-wise. Jax's retcon literally changed him from the strongest guy in the League at the time of his introduction to just a mysterious guy with a lamp who kicks ass. Just because a character's lore was retconned doesnt mean it should just be completely ignored, especially with the massive changes brought about in this situation. I agree Post-Retcon Jax would be 7-C scaling to Fiora but im still completely against getting rid of his lore from before the retcon.

@Weekly

Ashe & Sejuani/Olaf: If you're fine with what I suggested, then I guess we could just update them and be done with it.

Aspects of Targon: The only questions I have is how strong are the Aspects' mortal forms and how much power can they channel from the actual Aspect possessing them (remember that there is a race full of these guys that are all working together to keep Sol under control, and they're failing at that as well)? I have no real problem with calcing the feat itself as how you and Ever did, I'm just unsure of where it puts them. Remember that this sort of power may not necessarily apply to durability of the mortal forms of the Aspects, whether physical or magical, else I feel that the old Pantheon wouldn't have gotten herself killed (this are my thoughts only though).

Sol's feat: I personally was hoping we might be able to get a rough estimate based on Sol waxing on and on about the attack.

"Trees splinter. Rivers evaporate. The mountain walls of the valley crumble in smoky avalanches. The tireless laborers erecting their Sun Disc, the soldiers taking the hill, the stargazers, the worshipers, the terrified, the doomsday prophets, the hopeless, the rising kings… all those who beheld the streaking comet with selfish eyes witness the ensuing supernova as an early dawn. Across this pitiful globe, my radiance turns darkest night to blinding day. What fictions will they conjure to explain this phenomenon?

Even my Targonian masters have rarely witnessed such a display of my power. Certainly, no terrestrial world has ever born scars as severe as what is left of that once-verdant valley. When I am finished, nothing remains.

Not even this incarnation of Pantheon. I can't say I'll miss her or her mindless barking."

Perhaps the first few lines could be used in a calculation? That's all I really have to say, since we can't scale it to Pantheon's mortal forms considering one version of the mortal form dies to said attack (so it may not apply to mortal forms of the Aspects we have and see everyday like Leona, Diana).


@Weekly, @TheEver and everyone else

Jax & Wukong: First, the Journal of Justice (the old lore we're using for Jax/Wukong right now and what we'd been using for quite a few characters in this thread like Aatrox, Nasus, Renekton, Xerath, Brand etc.) is gone from all official sources of lore (like the Universe site) save for a small mention in in-game info stats (like in Brand's). The only place where you can fully read them is on the LoL wiki (which itself has no sources for the JoJ since it bears repeating again, the JoJ is gone/retconned/removed).

Therefore, characters like Garen, Lux, Kata, Caitlyn, Fiddlesticks, Shaco, Nocturne and more don't have 2 keys for pre-retcon and post-retcon lore: there's no official source to evaluate and get stats from for the pre-retcon lore. Their old character bios have been updated and any JoJ activities are again no longer canon and in any official sources (like the Universe site, which is what I was using as a basis for these changes).

The standard I'm referring to is that all LoL champion profile pages have ratings based on their current lore (regardless of whether it's fully fleshed out like Ryze/Galio or vague like Nocturne/Shaco). It'd be inconsistent if we had Jax/Wukong have keys for pre-retcon and post-retcon lore, when the same isn't allowed for other champs, some of which are also involved in this revision thread. It'd be better if everyone had their stats taken from their current lore and stories then to have like a few to half of the champions having the 2 keys.

Regarding comparisons to the Beyonder stuff, in this case it'd be similar if Marvel had recalled all their old Beyonder comics, burned them and said "All of this never, ever really happened, here's how things actually went down." and the profiles would be referencing somthing which doesn't exist anymore. It bears repeating, there's nothing to reference anymore. The JoJ is as good as League fanfiction right now. Due to that, there've been quite a few drastic changes in regards to lore for a few champions (notably the Shuriman Ascendants who got updated when Azir and Taliyah were released, since the old League lore and scaling didn't make sense anymore). So saying that we should have 2 keys for Jax/Wukong when Nasus and a few others in this thread are going to have only one seems like bias towards the 2 champs.

Even then, what would you reference it to? Considering that currently he scales to Nasus who scaled Anivia (both of whom are going to get changed to have stats & explanations reflecting current lore based off this thread), we can't keep that as it would confuse people who'd go 'Hey, but isn't Nasus 7-B, how come Jax has a massive Tier jump without any real justification?'. Same goes for Wukong, who has only this to suggest a Tier 6-B rating (as a response to a fan question about becoming the best when Jax is around) from the JoJ Volume 1, Issue 27:

"Jax is tough, and he's always ready for a duel. I haven't beaten him one-on-one outside the Field of Justice quite yet, but I've gotten close. If there's one thing I've learned from Wuju style, though, it's that every defeat is a lesson. I can learn a lot from the Grandmaster at Arms."

This, along with the fact that Jax's own scaling is pretty much non-existent means that we'd have some very inaccurate profiles when it'd be much simpler to have post-retcon lore with Jax scaling to Fiora/Garen and Wukong scaling to Master Yi. Besides, it's not like much was really changed for either of them (Jax went from mysterious badass who's stronger than anyone in the League to mysterious Icathian badass who isn't entirely human anymore).

All in all, I feel it comes down to personal preference that these two keep their old lore ratings while everyone else is getting changed (including almost all the champs affected by this revision thread). I feel it isn't practical and would be quite confusing for normal viewers who'd be wondering on how does it make sense given the conflicting ratings we would have with one champ referencing things that are not present on other profiles. It'd be much simpler overall to have one key only for current lore (based off the Universe site) with other keys for skins for everyone. Then we could upgrade/downgrade/revise them based on new stories that Riot will give to us in the future (current upcoming stuff would include a new champ, Urgot's rework and Noxus story event, for example).

@Regis

No offense, but could you seriously cut down on the amount of text you type? It's rather hard to sit through it all for what could probably be summarized with far fewer words.

Sol's Void Closing feat is described as a supernova, and above throwing a star into it (which he said wouldn't be able to close the rift), but most of that energy would have been absorbed by the Void rift as it was forcibly closed.

At the Void's end, it was a supernova.

Planetside, the effect was more devastating than World Runes which regularly scarred the landscape of entire nations, due to this quote:

"Certainly, no terrestrial world has ever born scars as severe as what is left of that once-verdant valley"

@Ever

Simply put, regarding Jax/Wukong:

• Journal of Justice has been removed from all official sources and so is nothing more than fanfiction at this point.
• If we keep pre-retcon keys on Jax/Wukong, it would be incosistent with many champion profiles that had more old lore than these two (like Garen, Kata, Fiddlesticks etc.) but have only one key for current lore and ratings.
• Scaling wise, keeping the old lore doesn't make sense, since the champs it would refer to (Nasus and Anivia, along with rest of the Country level characters) are getting/have gotten changes agreed upon in this very thread based on current lore that would put them at different tiers.
• Not much justifying the scaling in the old lore either for both of them, especially Wukong.
• It would make for some inaccurate ratings that other viewers would be confused by when they look up the characters for a debate.
• I feel it comes down to personal preferences/bias on keeping the old stuff, as it isn't really practical when compared to what we've done for the other profiles.
• Better to have only post-retcon keys, and make changes later based on future stories Riot will give us.

@Regis

• No it hasnt, it still exists as archived pages on the LoL Wikia
• None of them went through such a massive power change when their lore was retconned.
• Anivia is keeping her Country level stats so scaling to her makes sense...but yes Nasus would have to be removed
• Wukong literally fought Jax and nearly defeated him multiple times
• ...Not really since they'd be separated into separate sections for pre and post retcon stats...
• We do pre and post retcon for several other profiles without any issue, why are you having such a problem with this? You cant just ignore the fact that Jax was immensely more powerful before the retcon.
• Then i guess we should just delete every profile on the wiki with "Pre-Retcon" stats. The entire point of listing them as Pre-Retcon is to acknowledge that they are no longer canon, but were still vastly different power wise

@Weekly

• I know it's on the LoL wiki, I've even posted a link to it in my earlier posts. However, the LoL wiki is not and never has been an official, Riot-approved source and we should not be treating it as such. It can be used as a way to find the official sources via the reference list (which the JoJ does not have), but it is not a primary source (unlike Universe) at all.
• Swain and Jarvan are also going from 6-B to 7-C, Brand is being downgraded to 7-B, just like the Shuriman Ascendants (save Azir). Aatrox is also getting changed. It is true that most of them don't have a massive change, but if that is the case, then why don't they also have the 2 keys.
• Except that is based on current lore, so why are we referencing it in regards to Jax's old lore? If her old lore had the same stuff then I guess it could work, but the problem with that is that it's all gone.
• In the context of consistency in League profiles, it doesn't make sense. Every other champ (including the ones you've agreed to updating in this thread) has/will be getting keys only for current lore and skins. Why should Jax and Wukong be exceptions when some of them are getting similar downgrades?
• Most profiles don't have all their official sources (like comics/episodes) being deleted/burnt off the face of the Earth like Riot has done to the JoJ.

• Ok, I'll take back the statement that there isn't an official source, but then the problem is that it's all outdated/irrelevant. I've been using Universe for my proposed changes, since it's not outdated and it's the Riot-approved lore centre for now (wikis and outdated pages are not).
• If you still want to use it, then why not apply it to all other champs who had pre-retcon lore like most of the champs we're revising in this thread and other older, popular champs like the Demacians, Ionians and more? Why is there a select preference that only Jax and Wukong should have separate keys (since the other champs won't be getting separate keys)?
• Lore retcons are one of the main reasons why I made this thread, I've even spoken about it in my OP here: "My problem with this is that there are no valid sources supporting most of them (like lore feats/developer statements/etc.), especially old lore feats, which are now outdated since the Institute of War and the League itself was retconned away".
• Swain, Nasus, Brand etc. are all getting similar downgrades, yet we're not keeping pre-retcon keys for them (unless I've missed something).

I pretty much feel like we're talking past each other at this point, I don't want separate keys since I feel it's superfluous and would just make things more confusing. The standard we use for most profiles is quite simple, being current lore + skins and we can pretty much apply it to all LoL profiles we have, even the ones which haven't received a full update. There's no real need or reason (to me) to keep pre-retcon lore since it's pretty much fanfiction now and there's newer, more interesting things to talk about in the new lore (my thoughts only).

"If you still want to use it, then why not apply it to all other champs who had pre-retcon lore like most of the champs we're revising in this thread and other older, popular champs like the Demacians, Ionians and more? Why is there a select preference that only Jax and Wukong should have separate keys (since the other champs won't be getting separate keys)?"

Because as Weekly said, besides possibly Taric, Jax and Wukong are the only ones to receive such a major power change in their lore updates.

Is everyone ignoring Nasus, Renekton, Brand, Xerath? They're also getting revised as they have new lore which is why they're getting downgraded to the same extent as Jax & Wukong (from 6-B to 7-C/B). Even then, why are we only targetting major power changes? The old lore has no real influence on the new lore, and the changes I'm proposing would be their new base (normal) stats based on current lore. There would be no mention of old lore in any of the profiles being changed here (like in Lissandra's, Brand's, the Shuriman Ascendants', Aatrox's, the Targonian Aspects' and so on). Their old lore references would be removed since it's outdated.

It's not just about the power change whether it's big or small. Riot themeslves stated before that they wanted to reset everything didn't they? It's not fair to compositize anyway. It's really quite wrong to do.

Disney Vader and Legends Vader never get segregated though, even though most people agree they should be for debating purposes.

I mean Luke's children don't even exist, for one.