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Undertale downgrade?

AsuraBG

AsuraBG

13
1
Before I start, I want to apologize about my English. English isn't my native language.

So I'm originally from Google+ and I have been in a lot debating communities lately. And I have seen a lot of people saying that Asriel and Omega Flowey to be Multiversal+ (including this wiki), which isn't true. Let me explain why.

Before someone say something, yes, I do know that there are multiple timelines (stated by the characters themselves) but this doesn't mean that Undertaleverse is Multiversal+. It's actually far from Multiversal+. Why? Well, there is a chart that is programmed in the game, called the "Fun Value". http://m.imgur.com/gallery/xurb9vR Basically, everytime you start a new game, the game picks a number from 1-100. Based on whatever you number you get, different things happen. Keep in mind that there 3 possible routes - "the Pacifist route", the "Neutral route" and the "Genocide route". This makes Undertaleverse 300 universes/timelines in size or Multi-Universal. Based on that information, Undertale's God tiers should be Multi-Universal, not Multiversal+.

Sans and Flowey are the 2 characters who can keep their memories in tact even when the timeline was resetted in some way or another. Sans literally says that when he fought Chara (he says that he killed them 7 times in a roll) while Flowey implies that in the beginning it the game (if you kill Toriel, and then decide to use your save file, and spare her instead, Flowey straight up says that he saw you killing Toriel before using the save file).

Also, Chara should be higher than Omega Flowey and Asriel due to them one-shotting and destroying the verse. Omega Flowey should be Universal and Asriel - Univeral+ due to the fact that none of them have shown better feats (Asriel even stated that he was about to destroy the timeline with his Hyper Goner). Chara > Asriel > Omega Flowey.

That's all I have to say. Thank you in advice if you have checked this discussion.
 
The "Fun Value" is gameplay mechanics.

Flowey duplicates Chara's reality wiping feat casually and Asriel is above both of them.
 
Promestein said:
The "Fun Value" is gameplay mechanics.

Flowey duplicates Chara's reality wiping feat casually and Asriel is above both of them.
Click to expand...

Game mechanics aren't just game mechanics. Normally, in any other games, they would be just game mechanics but Undertale, they are part of their reality. Tobifox actually states that. The things like LV, EXP, Determination (that includes the Save Files), ect. can be judged by Sans himself.

Also, no. Omega Flowey resetted the timeline and erased all humans and monsters on Earth (yet, he failed to erase Frisk). Asriel stated that he was about to erase the timeline. Chara destroyed the verse as whole.
 
Remind me to read Azzy's blog later.

Also, I may need to pick stuff from Azzy's blog, although we know that Flower being level 9999 while Chara being level 20 means that Flower (level of violence btw) would mean that Flower > Chara regardless.

It doesn't make sense why Chara is the only one that breaks the game permanently while Flowey doesn't but Omega Flowey was just messing with Frisk at that point so...

Anyways, just know that Omega Flowey > Chara via level difference.
 
I would like to mention that if we were to use Fun Value to determine a solid amount of timelines, it would notably affect Chara, Frisk, and UtU. Omega Flowey would be affected to a much lesser degree, and Asriel wouldn't really be affected, at all.

I wouldn't say using Fun Values is completely absurd and out of the question, as Undertale incorporates a great deal of meta things like this into the game. However, I am unsure on doing so due to the fact that, unlike stats, EXP, LV, resets, etc., I do not believe Fun Values are ever actually referenced as an in-universe truth.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
I would like to mention that if we were to use Fun Value to determine a solid amount of timelines, it would notably affect Chara, Frisk, and UtU. Omega Flowey would be affected to a much lesser degree, and Asriel wouldn't really be affected, at all.

I wouldn't say using Fun Values is completely absurd and out of the question, as Undertale incorporates a great deal of meta things like this into the game. However, I am unsure on doing so due to the fact that, unlike stats, EXP, LV, resets, etc., I do not believe Fun Values are ever actually referenced as an in-universe truth.
Click to expand...
Game mechanics and game's coding aren't taken seriously (even tho Tobifox makes clear through out that they do matter) and yet, we see Sans preventing you from pausing the game by breaking the menu. How aren't they taken seriously again? If you say that this is merely a 4th wall breaking and shouldn't be taken seriously, then I disagree.

Yes, I have read that blog actually (I had it sent to me in Google+) and although powerscaling do matter sometimes, I prefer statements and feats. And that is my problem - Asriel himself stated that he was about to destroy the timeline... I don't see how that makes him Multiversal. Omega Flowey resetted the timeline entirely to a current point long before the events in the game even happened (which the main reason why he caused the game to crash) and then, erased the humans and monsters from Earth. Keep in mind that he said that he have stolen your save files, meaning that you've lost all your "progress" through out the game. Also, using safe files Ôëá resetting the timeline. When can clearly see the difference between them when we fight Omega Flowey.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that it's not true. I just don't see the evidence that supports that Undertale is Multiverse (having more than 1000 timelines), and Omega Flowey and Asriel being Multiversal+.
 
It's not because UT treats some of its game mechanic as canon that we must assume ALL gameplay mechanics are canon, especially with FUN values, who aren't discussed anywhere at all.

We literally never said anywhere that Asriel is Multiversal+ Via destroying the timeline. He is so via having infinite stats over Chara or Flowey.

Power scaling is just as important as feats. I'm sure you don't want me to bring up how ridiculous other franchises would be if we didn't do power scaling.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
It's not because UT treats some of its game mechanic as canon that we must assume ALL gameplay mechanics are canon, especially with FUN values, who aren't discussed anywhere at all.

We literally never said anywhere that Asriel is Multiversal+ Via destroying the timeline. He is so via having infinite stats over Chara or Flowey.

Power scaling is just as important as feats. I'm sure you don't want me to bring up how ridiculous other franchises would be if we didn't do power scaling.
Click to expand...
But you are assuming that Undertale is Multiversal when it was stated that there are multiple timelines (I'm not talking about Fun Value)? Mmkay.

Why? Is it because of the 7 humans = Omnipotence (by the game's lore)? It was clearly shown that the human's souls are source of Determination (by Gaster's experiments) which it the main reason why Chara and Frisk are so strong (Chara is also strong because of the LV but that is another story). By that logic, they also would be near Omnipotents.

That's true but then again, some franchises threw the powerscaling thing out of the window. *cough* DBS *cough*
 
I dunno if you had seen Asriel's profille, but it says Asriel is Multiversal+ not for being superior to Chara or OF. It says that he is Multiversal+ for being literally infinitely above both of them. In fact, both Chara and God Flowey had to destroy the world in some way, Asriel was doing it with his presence. He was just standing there and the entire world was being destroyed.
 
Assuming that each FUN value is an alternate universe is speculating quite a bit, but it's nothing outlandish and definitely wouldn't be something abnormal for Undertale. I'm a bit divided on that.

But even assuming the FUN value makes Undertale have 300 universes, the characters are still multiversal.

There's the thing Lina mentioned about Omega Flowey being Level 9999 compared to Chara, who was only level 20 when they destroyed the game. That's approximately 500 times stronger, which means Omega Flowey is at the very least around 150,000x Universe buster+, or around 150x the lower end of multiverse level going by your 300 universes theory.

And Asriel's check stats literally state him to be infinite, which means he's infinitely superior to both Chara and Omega Flowey, who both have finite stats.

Even then, Flowey spent his entire existence resetting the timelines so he can screw with people. This is to the extent that he knows everybody inside and out, just from mere trial and error. The exact amount is unknown, but it's ridiculously high and more than likely enough to justify Chara being multiversal via destroying it all. Plus he's possibly done this for every single one of these 300 universes.
 
I'm against use of the FUN value for scaling the god tiers. It is explicitly used to give the game replay value and is never mentioned in the lore, making it more akin to an internal stat that determines damage rather than Check Stats, which have no influence on Gameplay and are completely different from their Internal counterparts, or even compared to LV, which is mentioned in lore and does pretty much exactly as described and is at least visible to the player throughout the game.

Also, like Arbitrary said, Flowey reset so many times he knew everything that would happen no matter what he did, at least according to him, with the exception of Frisk's appearance in the Underground. That's a lot of timelines he created.
 
Doesn't Neutral Route have several possible endings? Meaning there's muuuuuccch more timelines even if we did use Fun values?
 
Is this still going? Well, I have to disagree.

Yes, I have seen Asriel's profile but that's not my point. There is no logic behind Omega Flowey's and Asriel's stats, not because of them being "infinitely" higher than Frisk (I'm talking about Ariel specifically) but because the souls thing doesn't make sense. 7 humans souls Ôëá infinite stats. The numbers simply doesn't make it up. Why? Well, Omega Flower had LV of 9,999 when he had 6 humans souls but when you add one more soul, it becomes infinite?? And no, the Monster souls ate far weaker than the Humans souls, stated by Gaster himself.

Just because Chara could reach LV 20 in the game, doesn't mean that they can't go beyond that level. In fact they went beyond that level because they killed everyone on the surface. But even then, there is no explaination on why Omega Flower and Aeriel have so high LV when a human can reach only LV 20 in the game. Where is this power come from? It definitely can't be Determination because Determination has different characteristics.

I'm saying stats (such as defense, speed, attack damage, ect.), not powers. Aeriel doesn't have Nigh-Complete skill set like Najimi Ajimi from Medaka Box. Yes, the infinite stats will affect Asriel's tier, ect. but that's about it.

Ignoring the Fun Value (1-100) programmed into the game is like ignoring the stats themselves because they all are, in fact, game mechanics.
 
About the timeline thing.

Flowey did so much reset that he knew every possible outcome (that he could achieve that is) in the underground. That is vastly into the 2-B range.

@Asura Doesn't matter if you think it makes no sense for 7 SOULs to be infinite in power. It happened whether you like it or not.

Except that Chara did the 2-B feat while at LV 20. So it doesn't matter what happened to Chara after that. They only "killed everyone on the surface" after said 2-B feat.
 
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