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Fist of The North Star: Downgrades And A Question

Austrian-Man-Meat

Austrian-Man-Meat

VS Battles
Retired
2,072
240
Firstly, I will be issuing a downgrade; it's for Hyoh throwing 1109 punches on someone before they could fall to the groundOne problem with this premise is "before they fall", the opponent Hyoh punched was levitating in mid-air due to the technique he used on him before the punches were thrown out. With this knowledge, we have no concrete time-frame regarding the feat. I believe there are some alternative feats to use instead, such as Kasumi Kenshiro's bullet dodge among others which I shall reference if requested.

Also, a quick question. Muso-Tensei is commonly said to not only offer intangibility to its user. But allows them to atomise who they touch as well. However, I don't believe I've ever seen something which would imply the technique does indeed atomise. I would appreciate if someone would show me an explicit statement from the manga that proves so.
 
Btw, there has been a change made in this blog post about how we are only shown 33 punches in that exact panel. I used the FTE timeframe to find the new speed for said feat shown since we only see 33 punches and not 10000 at that panel.
 
I will highlight this thread for further input.
 
First I'd like to address the museo tensei one, I'm going to also agree with the fact i also can't find evidence of atomic destruction so yah you can remove it. The issue I think was that people probably confused the idea of Kenshiro erasing people into nothingness with museo tensei as him erasing their atoms. It has been shown and stated Kenshiro erasng things into nothingness but I believe it got misinterpreted over the years into atomic destruction.

Now for the first one. Me and Lina talked about this feat and also found out he wasn't falling but rather levitating and spinning, and even. Lina is going to have to agree that he stated the feat could be potentially higher as when the exact was performing, Kuroyasha(the man floating in the air) was completely immobile and had not moved at all(within the scan it also gives is the stop suffix and he's supposed to be spinning.) so I don't mind a quick change to the method of the feat(I recall You and Lina had a second method to the feat so maybe use that?)
 
As for Lina's comment, uh dude you know that the fight on the panel is basically stating theirs 10,000 fist on the panel, its obviously not gunna have 10,000 fist exactly drawn on their, You really think that the author would take his time drawing exactly TEN THOUSAND INDIVIDUAL ARMS AND PUNCHES.

Might as well downgrade other verses like idk Masada verse for stating they threw 50 punches in a 100 micro second but we don't see EXACTLY 50 punches drawn, or a better example torikos character Froeis, who stated to use a sliced move called ONE HUBDRED MILLION SLICE grater.

So yah nothing was wrong with your blog Lina you should preferably return it back to normal.
 
One problem, we don't know how fast he's spinning; therefore cannot make a timeframe. Since we have no clue how fast he's spinning. There is no way we can approach this objectively anymore (by objectively, I'm speaking of something do-able without assumptions. for example, a book stating jimmy moved three meters in 0.002 seconds.) Therefore we should preferably go with something more clear cut, like Kasumi evading bullets etc.
 
@Austrian the feat itself Lina told me is one of how fast hyoh threw all his punches. Now the number is undeniably 1,109 strikes because that's how many pressure points the hokuto ryuuken meredian point has and he was stating he will hit all of them, because that we have the distance. As for the timeframe, when you did two methods(one with a FTE timeframe, the other with the free fall calc.) I was fine with either, now to justify the FTE method as it's the only one left to use.

One it's an INCREDIBLY common trope in fist of the North Star for moves to be literal(especially the ones with numbers.) Things like hokuto senju satsu,hokuto senjukai ken, or Nanto Senjin Gaha Zan (ÕìâÕíÁÕ▓®þá┤µû¼, Thousand Dust Rock Destruction Slash. Now idk who cares to be specific enough to count each individual punch/slash/wound to see if it's the same as their, because HNK itself isn't superficial on its move count, you just have to take their word for it like a MAJORITY of fiction,(i.e. Occam's razor)

Now back to timeframe, I've provided on my blog showcasing Kenshiro and others moving themselves or fist so fast that the human eye within its vicinity cannot seee or process the actions that have occurred in that moment(examplekenshior throwing punches that neither Amiba or a rouge bandit could see, Kenshiro and han having a whole fight while shachi and Lin not realizing they've touched each other once. Or a more recent feat kasumi and liu Zongwu literally disappear and start haivng a whole fight while WE(and also the two men fighting) cannot see their fight at all.

So using a FTE timeframe for their attacks that happen ALL AT ONCE is more than justified.
 
"You really think that the author would take his time drawing exactly TEN THOUSAND INDIVIDUAL ARMS AND PUNCHES."

No, but then again we don't really care about the author either. If he says a character throws fifty punches, yet only draws ten we have to operate on a basis where we only take into consideration what's visually shown; what's forgotten is that its Hyoh saying this, not the author. It's also entirely possible that either Hyoh only threw out 33 punches in that panel; has many more punches left to throw. And if memory serves me correctly, there isn't just a singular panel showcasing the feat, there is about four (remembering from the top of my head) so who's to say he didn't fully finish the barrage in those four panels?

Back on to the topic at hand, I'm incredibly hesitant on using faster than eye timeframes on consecutive attacks (which are also not stated to be coming out at fte speeds.) It has been discussed heavily by both DontTalk and I on multiple occasions, after all, you're not the only one who's tried to propose this. The conclusion has always ended in opposition to such methods, you can check here for just a brief glance of what I speak about.

Finally, there's still a major problem present. It's still not as objective, nor as concrete as other feats in the series. We have to assume they throw those punches faster than the eye can see while assuming that the totality of all of those punches came out in the time it takes a human eye to process images. It's honestly getting quite ridiculous; the fact these calculations are being put in higher regard than clear cut bullet dodging is quite preposterous.

Note: I'm not against using your head for a premise of a calc. For example, if a character creates a sonic boom whilst running; nobody comments on his speed I don't need a statement to know they're running at supersonic speed.
 
>"No, but then again we don't really care what the author either. If he says a character throws fifty punches, yet only draws ten we have to operate on a basis where we only take into consideration what's visually shown; what's forgotten is that its Hyoh saying this, not the author. It's also entirely possible that either Hyoh only threw out 33 punches in that panel; has many more punches left to throw. And if memory serves me correctly, there isn't just a singular panel showcasing the feat, there is about four (remembering from the top of my head) so who's to say he didn't fully finish the barrage in those four panels?"

Um that's a terrible thesis to go by, by your logic we would have to downgrade or DISCUSS a multitude of different other fictions because what the author/narrator/ or character stated is different from what they've shown.

And those 4 panels try taking about aren't even him throwing anymore punches it's literally the same scene from the first panel but [but at a different angle], not to mention it's given no Indication that time has passed and rather shows no time has passed(before you or Lina ask, obviously their aren't 10,000 punches drawn on this panel, asking why is a rather super critical thing to demand to a very old and simple manga.)

Also to answer your two other paragraphs, No we aren't assuming anything for the totality of the punches, it's been shown that Kenshiro or really ANYONE in the fictional universe has the ability to throw punches in the 1000s or higher(example Kenshiros meridian pressure points are close to 1000 at 708 and hokuto ryuuken is at 1,109 median points, and have been shown to train to hit all pressure points at once For training!.) So no, no one is assuming the punches are coming out all at once, it's been downright down or stated so that point should be answered.

Now back to the whole issue with FTE. I should remind you that this is FICTION so forgive it for not being super scientifically accurate. Now the human EYE has been on record stated and tested that it can process an image as fast as 13 milliseconds. And stated by both dontalk and I guess you in the past for an image to be considered FTE, it must disappear completely within the view of the eye or perform actions where the human eye can't process the actions therefore it can't see it.

To make it SIMPLE, within Fist of the North Star, Its shown COUNTLESS times characters moving so fast, no one not even in the site of 100s of men could process what actions occurred(examples Ken grabbing the whips that have been stated to Move faster than eye, and moving from his spot to uigfurs nose faster than anyone could see, this completely baffled everyone and no one at all could see the actions.) <---(please see my blog for the scans)

I could go on to give more examples like Amiba with Kenshiros fist, or raoh with his master unable to see his movement. But the bottom line is these characters have been shown to perform actions far to fast for any eye to process or keep up, they could perform an entire series of actions without even moving a muscle ( [here is a fight where kasumi and liu have and entire battle to the death and characters design they haven't moved a muscle in their eyes.] <------(please read until the end of the chapter.)

Honestly what more proof can I give you, I'm giving you as many pieces of evidences as I can, but it won't help if you view these idea in fiction as to narrow and critical(sorry if that came off rude.) @Austrian man meat you yourself supper the philosophy of Occam's razor, where simpler is better, so than why won't you look at this series and with its FTE timeframes with that idea.
 
"Um that's a terrible thesis to go by, by your logic we would have to downgrade or DISCUSS a multitude of different other fictions because what the author/narrator/ or character stated is different from what they've shown."

I don't care in what it results, just because it leads to downgrades of various verses, it doesn't mean it's illogical; what's shown will always trump what is said. I will cite a thread in where I go into this topic in more detail.

Regarding the fight with Kasumi and Liu, it's most definitely a "battle of wills" type of deal going on. If it were truly the super-speed battle you made it out to be, then the wounds both characters gain should have been noticeable (or stayed on their bodies) by the other characters. There is also this scan.

"No we aren't assuming anything for the totality of the punches"

But you are? Firstly, you're assuming Hyoh manages to even finish his barrage seeing as he's interrupted by Shachi before he's able to finish his attack. So the actual amount of distance Hyoh manages to cover is ambiguous; the only thing we know is that he throws out about 33 punches and you're assuming Hyoh throws all these punches out in the time it takes a human to process an image which is not implied in the slightest in the panels you linked to me. If this isn't assuming anything, I don't know what is.

If you want to prove anything to me, show me an instance where Kenshiro or anyone delivers a thousand punches to someone; done in this sort of manner
 
Austrian-Man-Meat said:
"No we aren't assuming anything for the totality of the punches"

But you are? Firstly, you're assuming Hyoh manages to even finish his barrage seeing as he's interrupted by Shachi before he's able to finish his attack. So the actual amount of distance Hyoh manages to cover is ambiguous; the only thing we know is that he throws out about 33 punches and you're assuming Hyoh throws all these punches out in the time it takes a human to process an image which is not implied in the slightest in the panels you linked to me. If this isn't assuming anything, I don't know what is.
Click to expand...
Apologies if I am mistaken on something. And I'm not trying to make a decisive point rather ask something.

Even if we're taking the 10000 punches literally, why must we assume such an incredibly short timeframe?

If only 33 punches are explicitly shown in a single panel, can't it be said that he's throwing 33 hits within the FTE timeframe and consecutively going at this rate for a total of 10000? Rather than he threw all 10000 of these hits within the same panel? It at least seems to be a more conservative assumption out of the two, unless again I am missing something.
 
Ryukama said:
If only 33 punches are explicitly shown in a single panel, can't it be said that he's throwing 33 hits within the FTE timeframe and consecutively going at this rate for a total of 10000. Rather than he threw all 10000 of these hits within the same panel? It at least seems to be a more conservative assumption out of the two, unless again I am missing something.
Click to expand...
That's a good idea but unfortunately, nothing suggests that even 33 of these punches were all thrown out within an FTE timeframe in that scene. Aside from past instances where for Kenshiro ties a whip to someone's head faster than he could perceive it among others. I disagree with using a past instance to analyse a feat because it's like if we assume a swordsman who cut a bullet from about a meter away is about to do one hundred slices; we just suddenly assume all one-hundred slices would be pulled off in an FTE timeframe thanks to the bullet-timing feat. Also, there are feats which far surpass the speed it would take for someone to throw 33 punches in an FTE timeframe (Kasumi Kenshiro bullet dodge for example) anyways.
 
I agree we shouldn't use unrelated scenes/feats to make assumptions about calcing this one.
 
>"If you want to prove anything to me, show me an instance where Kenshiro or anyone delivers a thousand punches to someone; done in this sort of manner"

Funny you should say that, [evidence #1]

[this is more like further evidence to the first evidence showcasing kasumi being stated to blocking his 1000 arm techniques ]

[evidence 2, this one is like the example you gave]

[IDK about this one but I'm just gunna leave this cause it showcases more fist than normal scans do.]

[Part 2 of evidence 3]

> "Regarding the fight with Kasumi and Liu, it's most definitely a "battle of wills" type of deal going on. If it were truly the super-speed battle you made it out to be, then the wounds both characters gain should have been noticeable (or stayed on their bodies) by the other characters. There is also this scan. "

First the scan you showed was one of them after the inital death attacks before, they began to go attack more strategic becasue of the fact they tested each other out and the result ended in death on both sides, this isn't a battle of the minds(I could see where you got that.) their wounds don't stay becasue their bodies literally die and but they do not permanent die do the effects of soryu tenra (they can fight and die for as long as they want as long as they don't enter the barrier of death in he middle.) also you do l ow kasumi and them have impeccable healing factors(most large scars go away,unless done by Nanto.)
 
> "That's a good idea but unfortunately, nothing suggests that even 33 of these punches were all thrown out within an FTE timeframe in that scene. Aside from past instances where for Kenshiro ties a whip to someone's head faster than he could perceive it among others. I disagree with using a past instance to analyse a feat because it's like if we assume a swordsman who cut a bullet from about a meter away is about to do one hundred slices; we just suddenly assume all one-hundred slices would be pulled off in an FTE timeframe thanks to the bullet-timing feat. Also, there are feats which far surpass the speed it would take for someone to throw 33 punches in an FTE timeframe (Kasumi Kenshiro bullet dodge for example) anyways."

Austrian if a swordsman explicitly states he did a move that involves 100 slices, we shouldn't deny it he sliced 100 times, it would be bad to assume a FTE timeframe if it was one instance, but if he has MULITPLE instances of his slashes or him moving faster than any can see him, or even better showcasing the perspective of what the swordsman opponent sees, than their isn't any reason not to use the timeframe. We have to use the case by case basis method
 
"[evidence #1]"

Is this move summoning a thousand hands or the user moving his hands so fast it's like he has a thousand akin to Silver Chariot? I'd say it's the former because the positions of the arms would take more than speed would accomplish (some of the hands are two meters above him for example.) I think you should provide a bit more here.

You still have me unconvinced that the battle we see isn't a battle of wills, I showed a scan which clearly stated they're thinking two steps ahead of each other after all. Could you also provide evidence for the soryu tenha stuff keeping them alive? I don't think that was implied.
 
>"Is this move summoning a thousand hands or the user moving his hands so fast it's like he has a thousand akin to Silver Chariot? I'd say it's the former because the positions of the arms would take more than speed would accomplish (some of the hands are two meters above him for example.) I think you should provide a bit more here."

he's moving his hands fast enough to what you would say akin to silver chariot. He stated he learn this technique [from dodging constantly.] he obviously doesn't develop 1000 arms he moves fast enough to project 1000 arms. The position of his arm is probably just the author trying to FIT as many fist as he can to give a image of his 1000 arms.
 
> "You still have me unconvinced that the battle we see isn't a battle of wills, I showed a scan which clearly stated they're thinking two steps ahead of each other after all. Could you also provide evidence for the soryu tenha stuff keeping them alive? I don't think that was implied."

Alright here's examples of them not being a battle of minds or will [Here's kasumi clearly being killed and his body being erased and becoming one with the void part 1]

[you can CLEARLY see kasumis dead body right across from the NOW alive kasumi.]

[Here you can see liu getting the same treatment with his body disappearing and yet their he is standing with his body being erased.]

Also you realize the people watchin their fight cannot see what's actually going on, the only thing they know is that hey are [they are fighting to the death],( [more evidence of them not seeing the fight going o]and they are somehow[moving closer to each other]

[Here's them telling each other hey will die once hey enter the barrier of death.]

Edit: I'm done
 
Grudgeman1706 said:
he's moving his hands fast enough to what you would say akin to silver chariot. He stated he learn this technique [from dodging constantly.] he obviously doesn't develop 1000 arms he moves fast enough to project 1000 arms. The position of his arm is probably just the author trying to FIT as many fist as he can to give a image of his 1000 arms.
Click to expand...
You haven't answered my question, in Silver Chariots case Polnareff made it clear his stand had multiple after-images as a result of it going top speed. You only showed me that he developed his technique as a result of his master throwing many spears at him. The possibility of those arms being summoned rather than being attained via speed is still present; is even supported by the position of the hands.
 
>"You haven't answered my question, in Silver Chariots case Polnareff made it clear his stand had multiple after-images as a result of it going top speed. You only showed me that he developed his technique as a result of his master throwing many spears at him. The possibility of those arms being summoned rather than being attained via speed is still present; is even supported by the position of the hands."

Well y I don't know if you can see it but Fei yang is clearly just moving his hands in a rapidly fast motion to give the illusions of 1000 arms(im sorry but they don't specifically talk about if his hands are real, because most rapid hand motions or multiple hands are just showcasing speed.)[here]
 
What are you talking about? He claps his hands together which results in all those hands appearing behind him; that's when he moves his actual arms to hide them within the conjurations.

I remain unconvinced.
 
Austrian-Man-Meat said:
What are you talking about? He claps his hands together which results in all those hands appearing behind him; that's when he moves his actual arms to hide them within the conjurations.

I remain unconvinced.
Click to expand...
He clapped his hand THAN stared moving them upwards and downwards , you can see his real hands still?


Edit: sorry you can't see his real hands only his arms, his hands have blended in with his afterimages.
 
Austrian-Man-Meat said:
I can see not only his arm but his hand too, not sure about his other arm though; by the way, why would he even begin his technique with a clap if his technique is dependent on speed? I think you're grasping at straws here.
Click to expand...
He begins his hands with a clip because, one its a martial Art manga so of course theirs some kind of beginning stance.

2. No I'm not grasping at straws here, But your not giving the evidence I provided enough credit and overanalyzing the situation. Your in a state of "analysis paralysis"
 
"He begins his hands with a clip because, one its a martial art manga so of course theirs some kind of beginning stance."

If you seriously think that will convince me the hands are achieved with speed rather than it being a conjuration, think again. I will not under any circumstances agree with any points that have anything to remotely do with authors intention when it comes to analysing feats.

"Your in a state of analysis paralysis"

Yeah if you have no other rebuttal but "you analyse too much" then consider this debate over. Don't make a reply unless you have what I specified, like actual evidence that suggests those hands are summoned via speed alone.

I leave this to spectators of the debate.
 
I'm sorry but I still do not see anything compelling to justify that all 10000 of these punches were thrown within an FTE timeframe.

Using other instances of feats being performed within FTE timeframes is not at all a good argument to justify an entirely different feat and scene.

"but if he has MULITPLE instances of his slashes or him moving faster than any can see him"

As DontTalk said "for the instances you mentioned they wouldn't have to be remotely this fast to do it." It's like saying since this guy has MULTIPLE instances of striking 6 times in a second, it is fair to assume if he was doing 60 hits in a row he'd also be able to so in a second. You're comparing unrelated scenes of feats that are far apart from each other speedwise.

And if Hyoh's barrage did get interrupted like AMM has said, that just makes the feat even more questionable.
 
If the narrative says he threw X punches in a Y timeframe, and nothing more, we shouldn't assume that he threw more than what we saw.

This is 101 stuff.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
If the narrative says he threw X punches in a Y timeframe, and nothing more, we shouldn't assume that he threw more than what we saw.

This is 101 stuff.
Click to expand...
I know this, The narrative did say 10,000 punches and as for Y it's unknown. However past takes of similar feat performed by slower characters have shown or stated them to move or perform actions in a FTE Timeframe, It's simply filling the blank that the author left, no need to overthink a feat like this.
 
No, this is Calc Stacking, a light example of Calc Stacking, but Calc Stacking nonetheless

Just because a character has a Mach 30 feat calculated to him in the past, we shouldn't apply the Mach 30 speed as being the basis to all his future feats. Every feat should be analysed within his own context.
 
Grudge we keep telling you. You can't use other feats in unrelated scenes being done in a FTE timeframe to assume that this one has been as well.

Just because characters have shown capable of moving far lesser distances within an FTE timeframe in unrelated scenes does not mean you can assume he can punch 10000 times in the same timeframe. Multiple calc members have also explained that this logic does not work and is akin to calc stacking.

Again, it's like if I used a guy punching 6 times in a second, to justify that a time when he threw 60 punches those were all in a second as well.

Or like saying since Usain Bolt ran 100 meters in 9 seconds, we should assume he also can run 3000 meters in a second.
 
Just because Capricorn Shura once moved at a speed of 146,768,202,000,000,000,000c, we can't assume that he has that speed on literally every single one of his feats, and apply the value of 146,768,202,000,000,000,000c as the baseline speed, calcing over that and getting even more outrageous results because of that.

See how it suddenly becomes like ridiculous wanking when it's done with such high values and a series you're not attatched too?

Yeah, this is basically what you guys are doing.
 
Please remember Grudge this is just a simple disagreement. I have nothing against you and have viewed you as a very nice person whom I enjoy talking with.

I have supported upgrades of yours in the past. I simply do not agree with using a timeframe of completely different feats and apply them in this case. Not trying to spite you or anything.

I wish for no hard feelings.
 
I also think that Matthew, Ryukama, and Thebluedash make sense.
 
It seems like the consensus is that a downgrade should take place.
 
Like others, using other feats to justify his speed in the calc is in fact a form of calc stacking and should not be used. No hard feelings to Grudge, but I too support the downgrade.
 
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