Bleach pre-time-skip upgrades (Sorry, by the way)

[Amlad22]

Renji and Rukia got trained by the royal guard members and they surpassed many of the captains. Toshiro is still relatively weak in the final arc with no real feats besides overpowering base Mayuri

 

[Amlad22]

@Amlad22 Why do we need YOUR opinion on this thread.

I'll put it simply, i don't care about other profiles, i don't monitor everything but when i do i want to do it right.So stop comparing irrelevant profiles and present arguments regarding this verse only.

Does Toshiro deserve an upgrade, probably but not by using stuff like "o there were some clouds so this was a full hurricane", he has some pretty good feats which can be calced.

And one more thing which seems that people don't get it, CREATING A STORM IS ENVIROMENTAL DESTRUCTION, not attack potency.

I wasn't insulting you if that's what you thought, I was simply asking why do we need an administrator to confirm something that has already been confirmed and used on other profiles. Wasn't trying to be rude.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I can't remember but did Tōshirō get stronger after being zombified?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Renji and Rukia got trained by the royal guard members and they surpassed many of the captains. Toshiro is still relatively weak in the final arc with no real feats besides overpowering base Mayuri

When was it stated they surpassed them? And If they "surpassed" many of the captains then why hasnt Renji become a captain EOS himself then? It makes little to no sense to have a lieutenant thats stronger than the actual captain....Rukia herself only even became captain to take Ukitake's place after his death.

Besides, Renji only got his Mountain level rating by matching Bazz-B in fight. What says that Toshiro in at least his Bankai state can't do the same thing?

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Well, didn't Base Bazz B stomp Hitsugaya?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well, didn't Base Bazz B stomp Hitsugaya?

Im actually not sure its been a while since I finished Bleach

If that happened that may have been when Toshiro didnt have his Bankai due to it being stolen

And even if im wrong on that, then im starting to call Renji matching Bazz B but not Toshiro an outlier. Unless someone can really explain this to me, I just dont see how it makes any sense for any Lieutanent to be stronger than the actual captains seeing as how its always been Captains>>>Assistant Captains in Bleach. There should be no reason why Toshiro in at least his Bankai or Adault Bankai state can't match Bazz-B when Renji has. And if Renji really was stronger than Toshiro by this point and so on, then Renji would have been made a captain of the Gotei 13, if anything just take Toshiro's place

 

[AppleLord]

I can't remember but did Tōshirō get stronger after being zombified?

No. He said he train his bankai after the time skip, however, it was stolen from him.

When Renji and Rukia got an Upgrade, Hitsugaya was left as City level with bankai. Someone needs to fix that to Mountain level. In adult bankai he is Country level compareble to Gerald. Hitsugaya should not be weaker than any of them. He lost to Bazz B in Shikai.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No. He said he train his bankai after the time skip, however, it was stolen from him.

When Renji and Rukia got an Upgrade, Hitsugaya was left as City level with bankai. Someone needs to fix that to Mountain level. In adult bankai he is Country level compareble to Gerald. Hitsugaya should not be weaker than any of them. He lost to Bazz B in Shikai.

Exactly. Then I was right he only lost to Bazz via Shikai. With Bankai (and Adult form) its a completely different matter

Like I said before, there is no way in hell a Lieutanent level SR can become stronger than a Captain, especially when that said Lieutanent has never even become a captain in the entire series. Rukia was neither of them and only became a Captain to replace Ukitake. We have no idea how strong she currently is

And if we need to upgrade Toshiro from this, then this would also have to affect other captains who also arent Mountain Level

 

[Amlad22]

The weaker captains aren't mountain level. Only the senior captains and the royal guard trainees are mountain level. Renji far surpassed the average captain. He stomped mask de masculine who stomped Kensei who should logically be on Toshiro's level. And he isn't above his captain. Byakuya is small country level+ in Bankai

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Because Kkapoios is a knowledgable member of the staff who generally has a good idea about stuff like this. And I stated earlier that a Cinder downgrade was something not to discuss here. It's off-topic. If the Hitsugaya upgrade is rejected and he gets High 7-C or 7-B EDC only, then I will make a separate thread altogether asking for Cinder to be downgraded to Low 7-C with High 7-C EDC.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

The only reason Ichigo harmed him was because of Getsuga Tenshō. There are probably other examples. But I think Ichigo is stronger with it.

Not disagreeing with the rest of your post. Just this.

Ichigo injured Grimmjow only after using Black Getsuga which has some Hollow Power (or more specifically, the power of his "true" Zanpakuto spirit) mixed in. It's quite a bit more potent than a regular Getsuga. Ulquiorra even notes it feels like an Arrancar Cero.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Well, didn't Base Bazz B stomp Hitsugaya?

If I recall correctly, it was when Hitsugaya did not have his Bankai. When Hitsugaya got his Bankai back, he quickly defeated someone likely comparable to Bazz despite being nearly cut in half and on the brink of collapsing and holding his body together with his Bankai. Post-time-skip Hitsugaya should really be at least 7-B. He also survived attacks from Bazz and got back up to fight again. So he should get at least 7-B durability as well.

As for pre-time-skip, another character is rated at 7-C for the exact same thing Hitsugaya was doing for a much longer time. That and him being one of the stronger mid-tier captains warrants at least a 7-C rating. I think the reason Hitsugaya pre-time-skip was left at 8-A was because people literally forgot about his profile and not because he was being downplayed.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

There's more to being a captain than merely having a bankai and being powerful. There's maturity, wisdom, leadership, having to be nominated by another captain, approval from a number of others, open vacancies. Hitsugaya outdoes Renji in intelligence and even maturity, Renji might not have been nominated or Renji might have been nominated but declined stating that he needs to improve further (I can certainly see this happening). As for Rukia, she's more mature and intelligent than Renji and her squad's captain's position was vacant anyway.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The weaker captains aren't mountain level. Only the senior captains and the royal guard trainees are mountain level. Renji far surpassed the average captai. He stomped mask de masculine who stomped Kensei who should logically be on Toshiro's level. And he isn't above his captain. Byakuya is small country level+ in Bankai

If thats the case then why wasnt Renji made a captain or even nominated to be one like Rukia was EoS if he were that strong? Unless we're saying the SS is dumb enough to keep weaker captains in service, which is ridiculous when replacing them with even stronger ones to strengthen the SS's forces is the better route.

Besides, as someone mentioned above, Toshiro trained his Bankai after the timeskip, we just never got to see it because it got stolen from him from the Quincy. And at that time Rukia and Renji were upgraded to Mountain Level while Toshiro in his Bankai state, yes after timeskip, still remained at city level which makes no sense. Renji and Ryuka have 0 feats to suggest they surpassed Bankai Toshiro post-timeskip, especially his Adult Bankai form

 

[Amlad22]

Renji has stated that he always wants to serve under Byakuya until he surpassed him. That was one of the first bits of character development we ever got from Renji. He's similar to Chojiro.

Renji and Rukia stomped high ranking sternritter. One of whom trashed Kensei. They are also scaled to bazz b who scaled to being slightly below Yama. Toshiro has no feats to put him on par with someone who cancelled majority of Yamamoto's attacks. Do you honestly think he could scale to characters like Shunsui and Urahara?

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Renji and Ryuka have 0 feats to suggest they surpassed Bankai Toshiro post-timeskip, especially his Adult Bankai form

Adult Hitsugaya is already at small country to country level via scaling from Zaraki and Gerard. We're talking about scaling child form Hitsugaya here.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Do you honestly think he could scale to characters like Shunsui and Urahara?

Kyoraku did state that Hitsugaya would surpass him in perhaps a century and I don't think it was just out of humility. But I don't know if current Hitsugaya has indeed reached his level.


Now for my suggestion on pre-time-skip Hitsugaya:

Pre-time-skip Hitsugaya should be at least 7-C or higher for lasting as long as he did against Harribel. Lisa and Hiyori are rated 7-C for the exact same thing and yet Hitsugaya is at 8-A which makes no damn sense.

It makes no sense for two reasons: (1) Hitsugaya should not be weaker than the likes of Lisa and Hiyori as well as Mashiro (2) They are rated at 7-C for the exact same things Hitsugaya did (and for longer mind you) but he's still at 8-A? That's just not right.

Also, about my proposed upgrades for Ulquiorra, Harribel, Baraggan - Cero Oscuras is just their Reiatsu focused into a ranged attack. Given how the Hierro mechanism works in that the same Reiatsu used for offence is also used for defence, they should just be put at flat out city level in terms of both AP and durability. And if this is accepted, it would serve as good reasoning to bump up Hitsugaya to High 7-C or even Low 7-B.

 

[Antvasima]

@Kkapoios So what are your conclusions about this.

@All Please remember that you can argue endlessly if you wish, but without available staff members to evaluate an important franchise upgrade thread, nothing will go through.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Can I at least update the Hitsugaya profile? It makes no sense for him to stay where he is when two other characters are rated 7-C for the exact same stuff Hitsugaya has done.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

So far what i have to say is that Toshira's best feat (that i can think of) is freezing Harribel, so i'll be calcing that to see if it upgrades him.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

So far what i have to say is that Toshira's best feat (that i can think of) is freezing Harribel, so i'll be calcing that to see if it upgrades him.

Regardless of what that calc yields, what i've been trying to say now is that he should be at 7-C at least (though if it gives a higher result, then fine) for fighting her as long as he did. Lisa and Hiyori are rated at 7-C for contending with her for a while yet Hitsugaya fought her for much longer and is still 8-A? That is just not fair. Can I go ahead and do it now?

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that seems reasonable, but it depends on what Kkapoios thinks.

 

[AppleLord]

Before Renji and Rukia were Mountain level per upgrade, they were at City level. Hitsugaya was City level as well for been stronger than Renji and Rukia, however, his tier was not upgrade with them.. How come?

 

[Amlad22]

Renji and Rukia scaled to Bazz B. Toshiro doesn't.

If Toshiro does get upgraded to large town level or higher with all the other captains, the espada would also get upgrades right? Like nnoitra and zommari for fighting Kenpachi and Byakuya

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Well, I agree with the upgrade for Pre Timeskip Hitsugaya but I dunno about the rest. Rukia and Renji did get trained by the Royal Guard and Renji fought offscreen with Vollstandig Bazz B.

Didn't Base Bazz B stomp Hitsugaya with just Burner Finger 1? Even if Hitsugaya used Bankai, Bazz B could have used Vollstandig and achieve the same thing. When was it stated that Cang Du was comparable to Bazz B?

Renji also attained his true Bankai so I'm not sure it's alright to scale Hitsugaya to them. But maybe he could get 'At least City level, possibly higher'.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

But maybe he could get 'At least City level, possibly higher'.

^ I agree with this.


Can I make the changes or should I wait for an okay from a staff member?

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Isn't the Tōshirō feat being regarded as environmental destruction? Can that even scale to anyone?

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Isn't the Tōshirō feat being regarded as environmental destruction? Can that even scale to anyone?

That High 7-C upgrade? Putting it on hold until Kkapoios finishes his calc of it and of the Hyoten Hyakkaso. I'm going to put Hitsugaya at 7-C for now for the exact same reasons as Lisa and Hiyori. May be I'll add High 7-C EDC as well for now.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I would much prefer if Kkapoios could clear these changes before applying them.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Well, I would much prefer if Kkapoios could clear these changes before applying them.

As I have said numerous times before, two other characters are rated at 7-C for the exact same thing that Hitsugaya has done (and for longer). It's to rectify a power-scaling mistake pretty much plus everyone agrees with it (even LordAizenSama agreed to upgrade pre-time-skip Hitsugaya). But I will respect the staff and not change it until I have an okay from one. If you okay it now, I'll do it. But if you say to wait for Kkapoios, I'll wait.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that it should be okay to do the upgrade then.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Thanks. This upgrade carries over to two other characters as well by the way.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

I have made changes to the following profiles:

Toshiro Hitsugaya

Byakuya Kuchiki

Zommari Rureaux

Sajin Komamura

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Didn't Base Bazz B stomp Hitsugaya with just Burner Finger 1? Even if Hitsugaya used Bankai, Bazz B could have used Vollstandig and achieve the same thing. When was it stated that Cang Du was comparable to Bazz B?

If I can recall, Toshiro only lost because he only had his Shikai to fight Bazz-B with. He trained his Bankai after the time skip but we never saw it because it got stolen from him.

Besides, like I said before, if Renji really was stronger than Toshiro, then he would have been at the very least a candidante for becoming a Captain along with Rukia. I know Renji would rather fight under Byakuya, but he still should have been at least considered to become one and we never see that in-canon. It would have been similar to when Ikaku was asked to become captain after Aizen left and he turned it down for literally the exact same reason: to fight under Kenpachi and die for him. And quite frankly, I highly doubt the Soul Society would be that stupid and not at least attempt in recruiting stronger captains to be better assets instead of keeping weaker ones in service

 

[Amlad22]

His Bankai has a very small increase in power compared to the normal Bankai. He said this himself. So if his shikai got stomped his Bankai would still get stomped. Especially since bazz b didn't go all out and didn't use his most powerful moves. Rukia and Renji held off a volstandig bazz b with only their shikai. Toshiro shikai got stomped by base bazz b. There is a clear difference in power. The power increase of royal guard training is actually so much that the user can achieve a power greater than they used to have in Bankai but only in their shikai as shown with Byakuya.

Just because they didn't offer it to him doesn't mean he isn't above average captain level. They most likely asked him to become a captain but he declined, but Rukia, Lisa, Iba and isane didn't

 

[Amlad22]

You also have to remember that being a captain isn't all about power. Many other factors like leadership, experience and dedication all come into play. And almost all of the captain need to at least acknowledge that the contender has these traits. Renji doesn't have any of these, he is young, inexperienced and only dedicated to squad 6. Shunsui and the rest of the goeti 13 would know this

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I agree with Amlad. Renji must have declined. No way Iba would be nominated and Renji gets left out.

 

[Amlad22]

Question about the recent upgrades, doesn't Szayel deserve an upgrade too? He shouldn't be too far behind Zommari but yet he is still 2 tiers below him. Zommari is town level so maybe small town level Szayel for him being slightly weaker than Zommari. People who would scale to small town level would logically be:

Pre timeskip Mayuri: overpowered Szayel with his Bankai

Uryu: his Letz Still stomped Mayuri

Also szayel's gran rey cero would be placed at potentially higher