Multiple Upgrades to JoJo Part 5 Characters

I've noticed a few examples in the Manga that would upgrade some Part 5 characters.

In terms of human (non-Stand) durability, the protagonists of Part 5 currently have either Wall level (Bruno, Abbachio, Mista, Narancia, Fugo) or Street level (Giorno, Trish) durability.

However, we see numerous examples of Bruno's durability scaling to Building level stands throughout the manga:

1. Got punched directly at least 3 times by Gold Experience in their fight . Bruno even states after the second punch that Giorno is fighting seriously and aiming to kill him .

2. Got hit directly by King Crimso at least twice . While it's been confirmed by the Rolling Stones arc that he would've died without Giorno healing him afterwards, Bruno still managed to survive , move around and fight for several moments before succumbing to the wounds, so it should probably scale.

3. Got hit directly by Secco at least 2 times, possibly 3 .

There's also examples of other Part 5 protagonists having similar levels of durability:

- Giorno takes a direct rush of punches from Sticky fingers . It might seem it's Bruno doing the punches but he's using Sticky Finger's arms so it should scale to that.

- Mista survives having his own bullets reflected back at him so often it's practically a meme at this point . His profile doesn't scale this to his durability and points out how his bullets always perforate him, which I think implies that because the bullets pass through him normally, he doesn't scale and only survives the bullets due to their small area of impact only hitting non-vital areas. However, there's this moment in the Pesci fight, where Beach Boy "reflects" Mista's bullet back at him and he survives with minor injuries . Keep in mind, he's reflecting the power of the bullet, and not the bullet itself (so the above reasons for not scaling wouldn't apply); there are no bullet holes in Mista and Pesci claims he reflected the "shock" of the bullet into the inside of Mista's body , which causes him to bleed a bit but otherwise survive.

- Abbachio has been confirmed to be the physically toughest member of the gang so his human durability should scale. This is in-line with Abbachio's portrayal as the oldest, physicallly largest and easily the most combat-experienced member of the gang.

On top of this, there's an example that ties this all together by implying their human durability is roughly equal. During their fight with Squalo/Tiziano, there's a moment where Bruno, Mista, Abbachio, Narancia and Giorno all get caught up in the same explosion. They're all visibly hurt and blown back by the explosion but all survive it relatively fine , which implies they should roughly have the same level of durabiltiy to be damaged by but survive the same explosion. It's important to note that Stand-users with Building level human durability is nothing new in JoJo. In fact, most protagonists in Part 3, 4 and 6 have it, making Part 5's previous durabilities the outlier here if anything.

This by extension upgrades a few stands in Part 5. Namely Clash, Aerosmith and Little Feet:

- Clash is able to harm Bruno, Mista and Abbachio and is shown harming/subduing Giorno throughout the fight (it's implied he would've finished Giorno off if Narancia didn't keep chasing after them). This would put Clash at Building level AP. Clash is speed-blitzing the 3 of them in that panel, so I would say it also scales Clash's speed to their MFTL reaction speeds. Yes, it's true they were distracted when it happened and looking in the opposite direction, but this wasn't just one opponent; Clash managed to blitz all 3 of them sepperately before any of them could react or summon their stands.

- Aerosmith's bullets are able to harm Giorno, putting it at Building level AP. It's also shown harming Clash several times throughout the fight and Clash's durability would likely scale to its AP, due to withstanding its own physical attacks. Aerosmith's speed would also scale to Clash, making it MFTL. It's a bit trickier with durability though. Aersosmith has barely an examples of scaling when it comes to durability, and its power output isn't usually from physical attacks so it's dubious if its AP would scale to durability. However, the propeller being used to harm Clash could be seen as a physical attack, but I'm not too sure if it would count. At the very least we could use the feat where it crashes through a wall to keep its durability at Wall level.

It goes without saying Narancia's human durability would scale to the squad due to the explosion example and the multiples times where Clash harms him and he survives, also making it Building level.

- Little Feet's AP would scale to Narancia's durability, due to harming them physically , making it Building level. Their speed would also scale, making it MFTL. I'm also not too sure about durability here as Little Feet dies right after Aerosmith shoots it, but it being able to deflect the bullets might count. Formaggio's own durability is also difficult to work out considering he, Narancia and their stands have inconsisent sizes throughout the fight.

I looked it up and from what I understand none of this would change anything for Fugo or Trish's stats. It could end up upgrading some enemies in Part 5 but I haven't checked. - Edit: Prosciutto tanked getting punched by Sticky Fingers but they mentioned it was weaker than usual. - Edit 2: Risotto managed to survive for a few moments after being shot several times by Aerosmith but he was on the verge of dying.

I agree with this

I didn't even read but call me in agreement if everyone agrees. Seems small stuff and i don't like picking on small stuff.

So i agree.

I disagree with the Bruno getting hit by King Crimson thing. He didnt tank anything, he was ripped through like butter. The only reason why he kept fighting is through force of will, even Diavolo pointed out he should be dead, especially given his heart as ruptured. Those aren't durability feats, it's stamina.

Also iffy on the Aerosmith MFTL thing.

But, Bruno tanking blows from Secco is legit, and probably GE after the second punch, some of the other feats could be argued that they weren't going all out, the opponent didn't want them dead, or other things like just stamina given the attacks did harm them fully but in at least one of those cases Secco straight up wanted Bruno dead, ergo it's legit, and Bruno probably does back scale to a chunk of the cast so cool. Checks out. The Pesci example is actually a nice find though too.

I am fine with all but Bruno scaling to King Crimson in any way. He barely survived a single blow. All that can be is additional detail to Diavolo's power.

Seems fine tbh

I'm also somewhat conflicted on the King Crimson example. On the one hand, KC's attacks did go through Bruno like butter, but on the other, there's only so much you can atttribute to "force of will" or "stamina" before you have to admit Burno's body must be pretty damn durable for him to move around and fight back for that amount of time before being defeated. Granted, the Rolling Stones aspect complicates this further by suggesting Bruno survived through some kind of fate manipulation, but we could make the argument half the characters in JoJo survive what they do because of "fate" anyway. Regardless of either however, there's plenty more examples of Bruno's durability needing to be upgraded and as 00potato said we can use this example as further evidence of KC's AP. Also, keep in mind Bruno claimed Giorno was fighting seriously because of the impact of the second punch (which was thrown directly after the first one), so GE would have been fighting seriously since at least the 2nd punch (if not the one before).

Aersomith's speed would scale to Clash's because of a few moments in their fight where their speed is compared. Namely when Aerosmtih shoots Clash or hits it with the propeller while it's trying to escape away from Aerosmith. Narancia does mention Clash had slowed down a bit, because Squalo was injured, but the scaling between Clash and the gang takes place after it slows down.

Nah, it is quite literally force of will. Diavolo literally says he has no idea how he's moving around but whether it be through force of will,it doesn't matter, he's gonna die soon from the damage. Durability didn't effect anything, he was literally almost chopped in half and King Crimson didn't even try. Rest I agree with yeah.Although Bruno survived not because of Giorno (I mean, that's why but it technically wasnt him) the reason Bruno survived longer is because of Mista, when Mista broke Rolling Stones he prolonged and changed fate, making it so multiple died, not just Bruno. Giorno is why he survived, but Mista is the character that changed the fate of him dying.

Yeah but I'm iffy on Clash scaling as well. I'd have to go and manually check the scans to see if they noticed him while he was attacking, if every attack was a sneak attack then it aint really a speed thing, your links are all broken fyi, which is why I have to go check.

You should preferably ask the staff members listed in the link to comment here:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/JoJo's_Bizarre_Adventure#Supporters.2FOpponents.2FNeutral

I hit up Somebody Data.

You should preferably ask more of them. We are in a great hurry to get this done before the partial wiki lockdown tomorrow.

The what? I knew about the transfer but lockdow?Guess I'll have to look into that a bit.

Well anyway, ok I'll hit up a few more I guess.

See here: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/4208849

Ummm, not too sure what's this lockdown is about, but if anyone needs me to get new scans or whatever, I'm here to help.

This is laughably wrong.

Explain...

Eficiente said:

This is laughably wrong.

Click to expand...

Efi you need to learn to get off your high horse for once in your life, I disagree with a chunk of it too but I'm not being an asshole over it. The Secco and GE punch is legit even if the rest isnt. No point fighting over the other examples if the end result is the same because some of it is indeed legit.

I am uncertain whether or not it is a good idea to continue with this revision here or to put it on pause for a month or so, until we have settled in the new forum. It likely depends on if we can get it done quickly and efficiently.

Anyway, Eficiente, please try to be more polite and patient. Thank you.

The times Aerosmith shoots Clash might not really count for scaling their speed, as it was either some kind of suprise attack or Narancia was guessing where Clash was "warping" to next so he could predict where to shoot. But in the example with the propellers, Clash was aware Aerosmith was right there andit was in the process of warping away right when Aerosmith flew over and cut it up. Narancia did note earlier that Clash was warping slower than usual due to its injury, but the moment when it warped multiple times to blitz the gang happened after these injuries.

When you say blitz the gang, were those sneak attacks or was the gang aware of it and see it.

If Clash attacked, they saw it, but failed to counter in time then it's good. If it was purely Clash attacking without being seen then I'm not so sure.

Aerosith does scale to Clash but I'm not sure if Clash truly scales to Bruno/Giorno/Mista. Also your links dont work. Try imgur.

i checked, when it attacked the gang, they were looking the other way. Narancia yelled to look up because of Talking Head, when really Clash was below them, it got them while they looking the wrong way so they didnt see it and thus couldnt react to it. Same with Giorno, Clash got him from behind. So I wouldnt say scaling them to the gang via Clash is a good option.

But it's kinda ******, there has to be something, even just Narancia seeing an attack and confirming he saw it happen from SF, GE or Sex Pistols would be enough. I can't think of any off the top of my head though.

The only thing I can think of is Aerosmith shooting Nero full of holes while he was mid attack (From behind so still hard to say). Like maybe a possibly MFTL for outspeeding Nero given Nero was already in the process of landing his final blow? Possibly because it's still hard to say for certain.

I adressed that. They were distracted and looking in the opposite direction but keep in mind Clash was moving back and forth multiple times and blitzing them sepperately before they even reacted. Even if they were distracted, Clash wouldn't have been able to attack them all individually without the others noticing and reacting. Clash moved quite a bit of distance and yet the gang didn't react to the ambush until they all got attacked.

The scaling between Clash and Giorno is for Clash's AP, not speed.

I'm not so sure, they werent looking at each other either so it's not like they wouldve noticed each other getting attacked, especially Abbachio, who aint that fast and Bruno, who probably wouldnt have even noticed he got attacked. And yes, while it did zip around, super heavily implied to have done so out of sight.

Clash scaling for AP is legit though.

Perhaps you're right about the speed, but in that panel Bruno seems to be looking at the stand as it attacks him and Mista (who'd be the most capable of reaction to the attack first) seems to have been the first one hit . Otherwise there's no examples of Aerosmith scaling unless you want to count the Risotto example.

I'm fine with counting the Nero example tbh. Nero has MFTL attack speed, he was attacking in that instance to kill diavolo, he should by all accounts be going all out in that instant, not only because he warned himself multiple times to not piss around, but he literally said this attack would be the final killing blow, and Nero knows about Crimson arms so he shouldnt be wasting time as to not give Diavolo a chance to counter. Aerosmith managed to pump him full of holes mid attack. There's a few issues with it, like we dont know when Aerosmith fired, he could have fired before the attack began, but given he hit him mid MFTL attack, it should still end up being some degree of FTL as the bullets couldnt be seen when the attack began but tagged him before the attack finished. Possibly MFTL attack speed for Aerosmith should be fine.

As for the Bruno looking at Clash, pretty sure Bruno is looking straight down and while Clash's zigzag line is in under Bruno's view, I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be in front of him, closer to the POV, given the angle it strikes Mista's arm, it seems to be going up in down while moving forward at diagonal line.

For what it's worth though, the anime version has them noticing Clash attacking (Mista specifically, the manga has the line too, but in the manga it's unknown if he said it before or after he got hit, the way the manga is layed out though, there's a good chance it's meant to be afterward) but failing to defend themselves in time. I'm not keen on using the anime unless it's 1:1 though, completely identical. Basically if it modifies something or adds/detracts anything it's a no go. Unsure in this case though.

I don't think bruno scaling to kingcrimson works considering that kingcrimson went through him easily and the fact that rolling stone affected him by fate and we see the things that happen when fate is thrown on the table.the abicchio thing doesn't really work because uh......kingcrimson also went through him like nothing and he did worse than bruno when considering that. And uh one they were at the doorway from the clash explosion so that whole thing doesn't work at all.

Dang I say "uh" alot.

I don't remember them being by the doorway but even if true all of them were still visibly hurt and blown back by it but ultimately survived, so scaling could apply as they'd have to have similar durabilty to react similarly.

First of all, I'm no joking when I say I wanted to create a CRT for this upgrades, like, literally I was collecting some feats

Now, I do agree with: Upgrade Bruno from taking hits from GE and Secco; Giorno taking hits from Sticky Fingers (I'd add up Green Day aswell); Mista taking the power of it's bullet (nice finding by the way); Narancia scaling to Giorno (He endured the attack better than Giorno frankly) and his stand scaling from damaging Clash (who also cut to Bruno's leg just find); Little Feet scaling to Aerosmith (he already does anyways)


I disagree with: Clash having MFTL speed (the point of the scene was thag Clash attacked them while they were distracted. Yes, realistically they should have reacted, but it's like Kars getting tricked by Joseph even with godlike IQ: JoJo logic); Bruno scaling to KC (He got pierced like butter with a hot knife); Abbacchio scaling to the rest of the gang (He has basically no feats)

About Risotto's durability: Both Giorno and Tiziano got hit by Aerosmith's bullets, and while those entered their bodies, they didn't came out to the other side: the bullets didn't fully perforate their bodies

While Risotto got pierced easily

Prosciutto also overpowered Pesci as an old man IIRC

As for Fugo

Now, I don't any solid feats, but would powerscaling help him a bit? First, his regular speed: he grabbed a fork and attacked Narancia before he could react (Narancia has Supersonic+ reactions)

Now, durability, he survived Mista falling over the car's ceiling with minor injuries aswell as getting hit by a bunch of rocks punched by Man in the Mirror

Now, Man in the Mirror: Illuso states that MitM's energy is all focused into dragging people into the mirror world, but later he uses "every drop of MitM's strength" to stop a punch from Purple Haze. My assumption (a vague one, granted) was that this means he realised the gang from the mirror world to be able to use his power to stop Purple Haze. Why those this matter?

Well, my idea was to use scaling to upgrade Fugo and MitM scaling from Passione members and Formaggio respectively. Scaling Man in the Mirror at full power to Little Feet (which scales to Purple Haze) and leave a variable tier for when he is weaker (Scaling to Fugo's durability and explaining how a non-combat Stand like Abbacchio's can kick his ass). If a variable tier its debatable, then 8-C it's still an option for all them, but I do admit this scaling is vague, but also they are the only member of the gang that are not 8-C basically

What are the conclusions here so far?

We're still discussing it Ant. Only thing I think is guranteed at this point is Bruno scaling to Secco in durability via taking multiple blows from him meant to kill. The rest still has to be sorted out and agreed upon, or alternatives must be found for those that are kinda iffy.

There's actually a super obscure Fugo feat. Fugo, off panel, punched through steel when being attacked by Soft Machine. Given it had to be Fugo as Soft Machine attacks via stabbing, it wouldnt have put a hole in the steel framing. Still only 9-B, but it'd be a better feat.

Anyway, it seems we all agree that Bruno sure as **** aint getting upgraded from King Crimson. But, I'm sure we can all agree that being punched by Secco is legit. Secco being a bit stronger than Sticky Fingers.

Also, for the explosion, looking at it, none of them actually got hurt, they got knocked over, but Bruno looked to be completely fine, Mista seemed fine as well other then reeling a bit. Only Abbachio looked like he took a bit of damage, not withstanding it would have been superficial at best given he walks it off.

Actually another thing to note, if Clash could harm Bruno, if Bruno scales to Secco, and Aerosmith could harm Clash, wouldnt that be a scaling chain which ultimately results in 8-c Aerosmith? Assuming third law applies to Clash anyway.

Okay then. Just remember that if you do not wrap this up before the forum migration, you will have to restart the discussion all over again in the new forum.

Ok, so I went over everything and I can agree with a few things.

Bruno's durability scaling to Secco makes sense but not with King Crimson. I would also argue it scales to Gold Experience given their fight and Bruno's statements that Giorno was fighting seriously and aiming to kill (and Giorno himself hinted at this right before).

Giorno is seen getting barraged by Sticky Fingers' punches later on in the fight, so they could scale. This is backed up by Giorno getting punched directly by Green Day in their fight. It was Ciocolata's severed arm but with Green Day's arm superimposed onto it so it would be the stand's AP that applies (and Green Day scales to GE).

Mista's durability would scale with his own bullets due to the Beach Boy feat.

Clash's AP scales to Giorno's durability due to seriously harming him. The same goes for Bruno, Mista and Abbachio when it blitzed and hurt them (which would upgrade Abbachio). However, scaling their speeds seems too questionable seeing as they were all distracted when it happened.

Narancia's durability would scale to Clash's AP. Also, Aerosmith's AP would scale to Giorno's durability due to shooting and harming him accidently. Also it would scale to Clash's durability if we apply third law to scale Clash's AP and durability (which we should as Clash's attacks are phyiscal). This would also scale Aerosmith's AP to Little Feet.

I agree the explosion example might not be the best feat to scale the gangs durabilities. Also the claim that Abbachio is cannonically the physically strongest is in regards to fist-fighting (according to the Araki interview), not durability. However there are already other things that scale their durabilities to building level (the above stuff).

Yes, Bruno durability scaling to secco and GE ap is absolutely legit.

Checking the Green Day one (Im well aware of Green Day stabbing Giorno and him tanking it kinda so whatever AP GD is at would scale to Gio) but it's hard t say if GD harmed GE in the first place, he launched him, but it's super hard to tell if the blood is from GD harming GE or from the mold wounds. Regardless, it doesnt matter because GD off panel ******* slaughtered 5 of the sex pistols, so GD should have 8-C AP from that.

Maybe, that one is kinda iffy, he did get hurt from it, it just didnt pierce him, probably because it was just the energy from the bullet. So tough to say, but I would put Mista over Giorno in durability regardless, given Mista gets pierced, yet when he shot Giorno it ******* blew his arm off (BIG arc), creating massive holes compared to the bullets. So Mista in theory is > Giorno judging by the amount of damage he takes compared to gio.

Yes, Clash harming Giorno is good. True as well for those 3. If Bruno/Giorno get uped durability then Clash would scale. Speed thing is true, all of them were distracted because of Talking Head Narancia.

While convuluted, it's all technically true so I dont disagree with it.

The Abbachio thing is indeed fist fighting, but it means he hits harder than the rest, ergo, any feat the others have he automatically gets scaled from, like Bruno cracking a train windshield. Which in turns gets applied to his durability due to third law, given he's a human, and i doubt that Abbachio breaks his bones each time he punches, so he's still at the minimum Wall level in durability.

So really, we gotta figure out if there's any way to scale Aerosmith to the gang, there's always the Nero feat, which means worst case scenario it'd be At least Supersonic+, possibly MFTL attack speed. But something more concrete would be best.

I agree with all this. Now, it's just a matter of finding a feat that scales Aerosmith's speed (if there even is one).

Aero's best feat is just being summoned before Little Feet attacked Narancia, LF is Supersonic+


Also I mentioned that Fugo blizted Narancia, so that should scale to his Stand, right?


(And you have my long ass what-if for Fugo and Abbacchio}

Also I have a doubt about Sex Pistols

They're really weak when doing anything but kicking bullets (One couldn't push a part of Bruno's body and other, while having the intention to kill/harm due to Chariot Requiem, couldn't even scratch Mista in Trish's body)

So maybe they should be listed at "10-C, 8-C when kicking bullets" or something.

I mentiom this because their only durability feat is basically getting killed by Green Day (who scales to GE) and taking recoil from kicking bullets (But following by argument that's their power)