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Skill Debate: Yujiro vs Hayato: Grand Finale

Btw the best way to go by this is to nominate the categories example:

Body control, senses, copy, precision, prediction, analysis etc

And name the best feat for each category so we don't get into debating stupid feats.
 
For body control, I'd say either his Xiao-Lee or his Cockroach Tackle. His Xiao-Lee is pretty much par for the mastery level, though it's possible based on consistency of his techniques that it's actually superior to Kaku's, and Cockroach Tackle (I'll explain briefly why he has it), which literally changes the users muscle to become liquid, then vapors, then back to a solid.

For Senses, an easy one. Yujiro was able to sense Baki's bloodlust in Japan from Africa, roughly 8,000 miles away

Copying is rough, since it's implied that Yujiro either knows the majority or all martial arts because he copied them. So his best copying feat is possibly copying all martial arts on Earth, though to name some examples, he'd have to have copied Udonde, as it is only taught secretly to one royal Asian family, and it's an ancient martial art as well. For Xiao-Lee, he was either able to master it in a couple of years as Baki implies, or he copied it after seeing it once as Retsu implies. What's impressive about this is not only the body control, but it took Kaku 129 years to gain the same level of mastery. Last, after seeing Imagine Style once, he copied it and mastered it, surpassing even Baki, who had created the technique himself

For Precision, using solely Yujiro's feat here, he was able to jump out of a helicopter, throw a grappling hook from a decent distance from the window into a build and across the room on to a ceiling beam and pull himself i, he kick his shoes onto a fork and knife, andhe was able to Roll Kick a cigarette out of the air.

For prediction, his best shown feat is knowing what move Baki was going to use to win his fight instantly despite beginning to watch as Baki was getting destroyed, though I will say his scaling to Musashi's prediction is much more impressive. Musashi is somehow able to see muscle movement before it happens.

Analysis is another easy one. Yujiro is able to instantly and passively analyze weaknesses in the human body down to the cellular level

I know there's more than one for some, but with some, it's hard to pick the best
 
For body control. Can push his organs in his ribcage. The liquid, vapour and hardening, that can be done, i am just not finding the scan right now. It is basically instantly going from relaxation to strengthening the muscles to make attacks bounce off. But all of these pale in comparison to Can create an axis in the middle of his body which allows his left and right side to act separately to the point of being even capable of saying 2 sentences at the same time . And even controling the direction of his sound so that no one else but his target can hear it. Can create projections of himself, and seemigly knows body splitting techniques.

I actually meant all senses, cus in bloodlust (or ki sensing), the masters outdo by a lot, but it is pretty apparent why. But:

  • Sight Binocular eyeballs. (and Hayato can even sense when someone is looking at them through binoculars)
Yeah but all of those are just assumptions except for the last one. But the last one is a single technique. Everyone in Kenichi can do that, namely someone like Kenichi (who is completely talentless) copied Ryusui Seikuken after having seen it once. Alexander copied Akisame's blind spot technique etc. What is impressive though is this: Copied all attacks of the Akira and Sakaki from watching them fight even though he could barely even watch it.

Can jump way beyond the clouds right into where he needs to go. Can slip into a massive crowd of people while simultaneously keeping track of everyone's blind spot and hiding his existence in such spots passing by completely unnoticed.

About prediction there are all kinds of stuff. Predicting the entire fight and its duratio. Predicting all moves someone will make till the end of the fight before said person even starts fighting. Even Apachai, the least skilled of all masters, is capable of reading all possible moves an opponent can make and visualizing them as trails.

Can tell the strength of a person with a single glance even when they're trying not to stand out and hide their power. (same thing as Yujiro basically). Pretty kickass analysis. Yes, pretty mother f-ing stupid info analysis. Saw through the nature of Ishinsai Ogata with one glance. (meaning he has the best analysis in the series)

Idk what type of class this would fall in but Can make people have amnesia to the point of not knowing their identity.
 
I'd actually say changing the natural properties of one's body is more impressive then the 2 different things at once feat. It's impressive, as you've basically become 2 people in one body, but the other feat is literally changing the state of matter via skill

For sensing, Yujiro feat is definitely superior. All those guys are doing is sensing the fighting spirit of that Master that is actively projecting it to fight. Yujiro is sensing Baki's bloodlust (to to be confused with fighting spirit) from 8,000 miles away, and Baki wasn't even projecting, he was just pissed off.

For the 5 senses, sight you already know, the whole weakness thing. He doesn't really have any hearing feats himself, but Baki could hear the Musashi clone's first heartbeat from 13 Km away and Oliva can describe the condition of the farm where the grapes used to make a wine were grown in vivid detail.

Yes, but they aren't assumptions without proof. For example, Yujiro isn't a part of the royal family that passes down Udonde, so the only way for him to know it would be via copying. We are never given so much as an implication that Yujiro ever learned Way of the Void from Kunimatsu, the only teacher left in the world, despite teaching Yujiro Hanma likely being the first thing Kunimatsu would've mentioned to Tokugawa, nor was any mention made to Yujiro or anyone else around by Yanagi when they met that they are both Way of the Void disciples, so if he didn't learn from Kunimatsu, the only way to have learned is via copying. As far as Xiao-Lee, the assumption is made by a character in the series, so said assumption is not baseless, as, even not taking into account the narrative the author is trying to create with this statement from Retsu, Retsu is the second most skilled man in China, taking only a year to learn a shitty version of half of Xiao-Lee albeit, but learning that in 1 year what it took Kaku 129 years to master 2 versions of. While Yujiro could have learned it through other means, Retsu's assumption is an assumption from a reliable source and a part of the narrative for a reason, so in my opinion, it at least holds water. And then of course creating an illusion that affects all 5 senses. That and Yujiro's "Hanma Image" also gives him a bunch of unquantifiable amps in things like iirc speed, skill, and possibly strength

If that's a precision feat, Baki has a similar one that might be pretty similar. Where Baki gets his pseudo invisibility from. Works on punches, kicks, slashes, etc and they can be surrounding him from 5 different angles and it still works. This is his IR.

I'm not sure how many moves ahead Musashi can see, though Yujiro predicted the whole Baki v Kureha fight and Musashi has his thing. I'd say Hayato's prediction is better in terms of mapping out the whole fight, but Yujiro's is better for making absolutely certain of his opponent's next move (I'm pretty sure it only works 1 move ahead, unless he was using this analysis in the Baki v Kureha fight)

I don't quite understand what it means by nature, could you help me out here?

It can just be like a technique category. I'll have to get back to you on this one. Lotta techniques to comb through, though I have some top contenders I think.
 
I mean that is just flowery writing for flexing your muscles after relaxation. Sakaki does that but without the flowery writing. Though as for the rest, Hayato is pretty much defying the laws of human anatomy (saying 2 sentences at once) and laws of physics (giving direction to his voice, which is literally impossible).

That's pretty much contradicted by everything else in Baki considering Yujiro never shows anything even remotely on the same level as that before or after the feat. And that's what i said, it's not something i can call on Baki because in terms of Ki the blame is put on the user rather than the senser. So if the user has an overwhelming amount of ki/bloodlust, he will be sensed. For the people its mostly in depth ki sensing. Like can notice the class of a warrior, can notice ki even when he's actively hiding it, know exactly what is happening on 5 different battlefields all at once with detail etc. So it's more "detail" but less range cus it is the ability of the giver to show or hide that.

  • Hayato can do the same cell thing, but with "hearing the cells".
  • I don't think we can really scale Baki's senses to Yujiro, even assuming that is indeed not an outlier, considering how much it would change if Baki could consistently read those.
Copying is meant for things that are learned instantly. It being a family secret doesn't mean it was learned instantly it might have taken time. Same for the others, we do not know the details which are what change it from "average learning" to "copying".

I guess that'd be comparable to Hayato's feat then. How about dodging with milimetric precision?

Rysui seikuken also makes sure of the next move. Same for Odin (who uses regular seikuken). As he was fighting kenichi without using sight, using only prediction, so he had to be sure of every move.

Basically the true intention of Kensei or his...inner true self. So basically Hayato understood that he would end up being a bad guy if he picked up martial arts so he refused to teach him.
 
I can't speak for Hayato's version, but due to the nature of the move itself, while I'm not sure about the "vapor" part, the liquid part has to hold some pretty serious water, as the move only works because Baki/Yujiro is able to make their muscle density similar to that of water (since the animal being imitated is only able to do that itself because the insides of it's legs are liquid). With the laws of physics aspect, I might lean more to Hayato, but I'd like to look into whether or not its entirely flowery language or if my thoughts on the water aspect holds true. If so, its breaking the laws of human anatomy for Yujiro and Hayato and Hayto can break the laws of physics to Yujiro changing the state of matter of his muscles just by relaxing. Still might say Hayato's is better, but the gap in skill may not be as large

Yujiro is basically a walking outlier for the whole verse, but regardless, we see 1) Similar sensing feats from different characters, just on a much smaller scale and 2) Nothing to contradict this, as Yujiro only has that one sensing feat, though if we work under the assumption that this ability is related to physical senses, like I mentioned previously, even Baki could hear Musashi's hearbeat from 13 Km away. As for projecting battle spirit, Hanma's can project their battle spirit (its like a ghost version of themselves), and its basically them. Their battle spirit may even be able to bring them back to life after they die, as demonstated by a 13 y/o Baki after being killed by Gaia. As for potential actual outliers, they tend to end up more so in the planetary range, with Yujiro being able to smell strong fighters "on the other side of the planet" and possibly Baki being able to sense and dodge... an attack he couldn't sense. That second one isn't so much about range as it is about how I don't even know where to begin explaining it.

As far as copying something after seeing it once, I'd have to go with Imagine Style and possibly Xiao-Lee.

For milimetric dodges,I'm not sure how close this is , but a 15 y/o Baki, who is quite a bit slower and weaker than he is 17 y/o was able to do this to Prime Doppo , who was possibly able to casually blitz 17 y/o Baki, though it might've been a technique that somehow allows Doppo to paralyze someone without touching them (its still being discussed in some threads).

So same results via different means?

Ahhh, so since Hayato can hear cells AND do this, I'd say Hayato's analysis is at least as good as Yujiro's, likely higher
 
My point is, having a density similar to water, doesn't mean it is liquid. Wood and Ice are less dense than water but they are still solid. The turn to liquid and vapour is just being very, very relaxed.

Still it would mean that would be sensing literally everything going on in the nearby cities, which feels kinda outlierish Almost as outlierish as Kenichi tanking several serious blows from Advanced Grand Masters. Though im willing to settle for a tie here. Due to Hayato having shown to know more details than simply "bloodlust", whereas Yujiro has shown more range. (About projecting the spirit, that's plainly supernatural, but I can't show you anything of the sort from Kenichiverse cus people like Hayato and Mikumi who are really good at this shit basically never die, they're like 500 years old going by certain statements/feats).

Xiao Lee was just an assumption and not a very likely one considering the master of all martial arts statement. As for Imagination Style, that's a single technique. So im gonna give the edge to Hayato here. Due to the copying several techniques from dudes he could barely follow with his eyes.

That seems like just knowing the fist's range. Not really as impressive as dodging sideways with milmetric precision.

No i meant Hayato can do both predict a lot and predict for sure. So he just has more applications.

Ok. The reason that is that impressive is because the other masters didn't realize this. So it just means Hayato's analysis >>> other grand masters.
 
Right, I get that, but that level of relaxation, to either change the state of matter or at least perfectly imitate the properties of state of matter that is not a solid with relaxation is pretty insane

A tie seems fair, since it's a difference between potency and range. (Holy shit, and here I was thinking Kaku Kaioh was special XD)

To clarify, Imagine Style is a style, as in it is the ability to perfectly imitate anything one can imagine, hence the name. I'm willing to give Hayato the win, I just want to clarify that Yujiro essentially copied hundreds of thousands of "techniques" and perfected all of them, creating a new technique that is superior to them all, and only after seeing Imagine Style once with one specific animal.

Fair enough. I think I'd give precision to Hayato. Not sure if the Bakiverse has many precision feats, and if it does, I'm not aware of any more then I mentioned

Yujiro's seen prediction I think extends to either predicting the whole Baki v Kureha fight or predicting and figuring out the counter to a self made style before ever having seen it, the Ali Style (thought back, and this might be more impressive), and I have 0 clue how the "seeing muscle movement before it happens" thing works, but Musashi apparently got it from fighting many battles. This should extend to Yujiro as well, what with him 1) dominating the Vietnam conflict and 2) being able to combat Musashi, who as this ability. This is something not even a Baki moving with no acceleration could do (as he attempts with his Jab)

What's a good analysis feat for a grand master, just to get some context on how impressive that is?
 
Fair, just wanted to clarify that the changing to liquid is just flowery, cuz I don't think we got proof to say it's imaginary style though I won't emit the possibility.

Ok.

Ok.

Ok.

Don't think those are good ways to scale but even then it's still just rysui seikuken but differently. Hayato still takes via doing that and having the all possibilities on his side.

Stuff like analyzing and replicating finger prints, should be scaling above the likes of tirawit kokin analysis feat which you've seen. Analyzing someone's feelings and thoughts etc
 
So as of now, we have the points like this

Body Control- TBD, though likely Hayato

Senses/Battle Spirit- Tie

Copying- TBD

Precision- Hayato

Prediction- Hayato

Analysis- Hayato

All we have left is discussing what we want to do about "copying and perfecting 1 technique for everything you can image, and then creating a technique superior to them all instantly" vs "being vastly superior to someone who was able to learn several techniques after barely watching a fight between 2 people that practically blitzed him", and then I have to look into Cockroach Tackle and the mechanics behind that and we are finally done (I should done this to begin with...)
 
Tbf any technique has thousands of ways it can be applied depending on imagination. So Imaginary Style having that many applications is not that insane.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Tbf any technique has thousands of ways it can be applied depending on imagination. So Imaginary Style having that many applications is not that insane.
Click to expand...
Right, that is true, however think of it less as something like 1 technique being applied thousands of different ways, and more like an animal style. Each style in animal style is a different disiciple of an overarching martial art: the Chinese martial art of imitating animal movements and applying them to human fighting. We actually even see that this is were the Imagine Style comes from, as we see Baki imagining a giant Praying Mantis, fight it, and use a bird style (the Praying Mantis's natural weakness) to defeat it. We also see him emulate a cockroach with this, a Pterodactyl, a T-Rex, and most famously, a Triceratops. Yujiro sees the TF, copies the entire style (basically a animal style on crack, but with anything one can imagine), and supersedes every technique after 1 glance.
 
Right, learning how to manifest your imagination takes roughly the same level of skill per technique with the exceptions being things with different anatomy (like a cockroach) and things the user has never seen before (like dinosaurs), as it would be quite difficult to perfectly imitate something you've never even seen. I just wanted to clarify that while the vast majority of the things Yujiro would imagine would be on the easier end of replicating, Imagine Style is replication of whatever you imagine so perfectly, it creates an illusion of said thing and manipulated people's senses because their brain registers it as real, he is able to apply this technique of imagination replication to anything he imagines, creating hundreds of techniques, possibly thousands or more, he was able to learn how to do this and apply it perfectly, and he created a new technique in the style that is superior to all the others (the Hanma Image) all after one look.
 
Learning one is basically learning them all though. It's like saying to learn to imagine you need to be able to imagine all the stars in the universe.

Just learning something that manifests your imagination is the technique. The rest is just "what do you imagine will become reality". It's not like its an entirely different technique.

But anyway, Hayato wins?
 
Learning one doesn't necessarily translate to learning them all. Baki has a mastery of all basic animals and even most insects so long as their technique didn't involve strange anatomy, however Cockroach Tackle took quite awhile for him to properly learn and successfully use, as well as him only being able to use dinosaurs after working at it and spending time before and after the Pickle fight trying to properly imitate them. Yujiro instantly learned it all and surpassed it.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
He learned "all" imaginary style applications?
Click to expand...
So far as we are told, yes, however, we are only shown the Hanma Image, which is outright stated to surpass them all
 
Hmm scan?

Though learning a style that surpasses them all, doesn't mean the style is = copying all the styles combined.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Hmm scan?
Though learning a style that surpasses them all, doesn't mean the style is = copying all the styles combined.
Click to expand...
I'll grab it.

Right, it's not a composite, however, replicating the actions and movements of a concept would likely be more difficult than copying the movements of any real creature, plus it's is a stronger technique than any other technique in a style that has a move for literally anything one can imagine
 
Yeah its better but still unquantifiable. Similarly all of the techniques the dude copied were from grand masters so they were pretty great too.
 
Unqualifiable but still better than any other projection for sure, as in its stronger, more power, and faster than anything that can be imagined within the Bakiverse according to Baki

And I don't doubt it, the feat is truly impressive: the fighters were moving at blitzing speeds, using techniques way above the observer's skill level, and he barely saw the fight, yet still picked up several techniques, and Hayato puts this guy to shame.
 
Hmm then yeah seems fair to assume them as "several techniques", considering he applied several imagination styles (bear, tiger, mantis).
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Hmm then yeah seems fair to assume them as "several techniques", considering he applied several imagination styles (bear, tiger, mantis).
Click to expand...
So who would you say has the edge here? IMO it's a toss up, since both are some impressive feats
 
I'd say Hayato not because of number of techniques. But because of them being bltiz level, simply because of that i'd give Hayato the edge.
 
Sounds good to me, because if we compare them directly, the fighters blitzing the observer is the stand out part. I'd give it to Hayato as well
 
Overall, I think so. Granted, there's quite a bit of room to talk in the techniques department, but regardless, I think the bigger question is this: Do you still stand by Hayato sharing 2nd with the likes of Yujiro, Musashi, and possibly Sasaki with Hayato being placed as the first name in second place (the most skilled of that general level of skill), or do you think there is a big enough gap in skill between them that Hayato deserves a skill placement all of his own? Your answer will greatly impact how the current placement is structured
 
I already gave you my opinion on how the list should be.

Hayato is more skilled than Yujiro for sure, and not just marginally, but he's not "leagues above" either. They represent the same concept, so basically "the peak of martial arts", so it's just a matter of Hayato having shown somewhat better feats. Not really enough to make him "ranks above him". Like say Ikki is to Yujiro or Hayato, where you literally cannot compare them due to Ikki's skill breaking the laws of physics 2/3 times he shows a skill feat. So as i've said before imo the list should be:

1. Edelweiss/Ikki

2. Fugil

3. Hayato/Yujiro/Sasaki/Fate

4. The rest

Sasaki also has a "not Yujiro or Hayato level of skill" too, but the number of feats he has shown is pitiful, so he really can't rank higher.
 
So long as you still stand by this ranking, because of your reputation on the site, my experience with your intellect and debate knowledge, I will change the top ranks to reflect this ranking. We have finally reached a conclusion
 
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