Pocket dimensions with stars in them

DMUA · Mar 11, 2020

I don't remember what our proper conclusion on this was, or if we ever had one, so I figured I'd make this thread

Right now, from my understanding, we do not distinguish creating and destroying a pocket dimension with a lot of stars in it, as both get a 4-A rating

One problem being Inverse square law

Inverse square law is the idea that, as an explosion or some other method of delivering energy spreads as the surface area increases, as someone standing 5 meters away will take much less energy than someone 1 meter away

Creating something doesn't require inverse square law, you just make the thing and the thing is made, and thereby it would require much less energy to create such a space as opposed to blowing it up

It's not like space has an energy value that would compensate, just making space is entirely incalculable, and anything pertaining to such a thing is theoretical physics.

From what I recall, this sort of thing is why we dropped calculating pocket dimensions like explosions, so we should do so accordingly here and just rate it based on what's actually created.

Jaften · Mar 11, 2020

In real physics in order to exert control over any mass-energy at a distance there would be the issue of leverage to consider.

...Of course, fiction tends to take fat dumps on physics when it doesn't suit the author's narrative, so I don't think we can really rely on this.

DMUA · Mar 11, 2020

Jaften said:
In real physics in order to exert control over any mass-energy at a distance there would be the issue of leverage to consider.

...Of course, fiction tends to take fat dumps on physics when it doesn't suit the author's narrative, so I don't think we can really rely on this.

Yeah, same reason we can't just slap E=MC2 on creation in the first place

ProfessorKukui4Life · Mar 11, 2020

Just so I understand the point, are you trying to say creating pocket realms with stars inside them doesnt count as 4-A? Or that its at a lower end of 4-A as opposed to destroying pocket realms with stars?

DMUA · Mar 11, 2020

It would be High 4-C

Jinsye · Mar 11, 2020

We treat creation as equal to destruction for our wiki standards here. Creating a realm the size of multiple solar systems is creating a realm the size of multiple star systems in the same sense that creating a city is creating a city. It's still the size of multiple star systems and thus it's 4-A.

If we give High 4-C based on creating something the size of multiple star systems, that personally just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. As this would also downgrade universe creation feats to 4-B or so.

Also, even if this does pass through, people with full control over said realm should keep their 4-A rating as you can still control a realm the size of multiple star systems. Unless we want to downgrade having control over an entire universe.

Overlord775 · Mar 11, 2020

i disagree with the revision, creating a pocket dimensions with stars isn't just creating the stars, it involves creating the space in-between them and around them too

Jinsye · Mar 11, 2020

To put it simply, downgrading starry sky feats for this reason mesns we'd need to reevaluate cosmic creation feats as a whole. Since solar systems, galaxies, and universes all have lightyears of empty space.

To avoid double standards, creation feats would look like this.

Creating a solar system --> Star level
Creating multiple solar systems --> Large Star level
Creating a galaxy --> Solar System level
Creating many galaxies --> Solar System level
Creating a universe --> Solar System level to Multi-Solar System level

Not only do we not have time for another wiki wide revision but that scale makes no sense to have a universe destroyer be decillions of time stronger than a universe creator when most of fiction treats them as equal. It'd only make sense to equalize creation and destruction in most cases.

ProfessorKukui4Life · Mar 11, 2020

Yeah Edward pretty much summed up my opinion on this. For those reasons he listed, I very much disagree with this revision.

AstralKing7 · Mar 11, 2020

I agree with Edward

ShadowWarrior1999 · Mar 11, 2020

Disagree with the revision for Edward's and Overlord's reasons.

ProfessorKukui4Life · Mar 11, 2020

Shadow!!!! You've come back from the Shadow Realm! Yay!

Antoniofer · Mar 11, 2020

I agree that personal domains shouldn't be "calculated" by using inverse square law, for the same reason it stopped using the explosion equation, the place just popped into existence, it wasn't created by a big bang or something. Some times several personal domains simply are an inner world within ones mind or heart, so its the same if it have stars or not.

Overlord775 · Mar 11, 2020

the character is still creating a space or space-time the size of several to hundreds of light year tho

Antoniofer · Mar 11, 2020

But calculating as an explosion wouldn't be correct, those calculations involve overpressure and atmospheric constant that no longer apply here, neither as a mini-big bang unless the verse states it work in the same way. Although, I guess any other method of calculating will be arbitrary, as is not something that is covered by real physical laws, I can say the AP would be the GBE of the biggest object created there, and it would have as much sense as the total mass of everything and using e=mc^2.

As for the mindscape/heartscape, little matter if they have an starry sky or are infinite, is just within the imagnination/heart of someone, and thus not real (or esoteric).

ProfessorKukui4Life · Mar 11, 2020

Imagination? What are you talking about?

Antoniofer · Mar 11, 2020

Is in the case the pocket dimension is just a mindscape.

ShadowWarrior1999 · Mar 11, 2020

A mindspace is not real to begin with, so it's not a feat.

Overlord775 · Mar 11, 2020

Antoniofer said:
But calculating as an explosion wouldn't be correct, those calculations involve overpressure and atmospheric constant that no longer apply here, neither as a mini-big bang unless the verse states it work in the same way. Although, I guess any other method of calculating will be arbitrary, as is not something that is covered by real physical laws, I can say the AP would be the GBE of the biggest object created there, and it would have as much sense as the total mass of everything and using e=mc^2.

You are still forgetting about the space itself, it's important.

Pocket dimensions aren't just random section of the universe, they are isolated mini-realities created by someone

ProfessorKukui4Life · Mar 11, 2020

If the pocket space is a mindspace to begin with, it's not a feat.

Elizhaa · Mar 11, 2020

I also think that Edward and Overlord's arguments make sense, so I disagree with the OP.

SomebodyData · Mar 11, 2020

I agree with OP, I guess.

I agree with OP because right now we have a massive contradiction between tier 5-3 pocket dimensions and anything smaller. At the moment, we treat small pocket dimensions as OP suggested, but treat bigger ones differently.

The distinction is arbitary, either both are rated this way or neither.

Overlord775 · Mar 11, 2020

we threat pocket dimensions containing a planet as 5-B tho

ShadowWarrior1999 · Mar 11, 2020

We just treat pocket dimensions based on what they're shown to contain.

Jinsye · Mar 11, 2020

Not... really?

We consider pocket dimensions large enough to contain cities as City level. A dimension with a starry sky is large enough to contain multiple star systems, thus it's Multi-Solar System level.

If we're going to just ignore the space in-between, every single universe creator would have to be downgraded to 4-B/4-A. Which not only makes no sense, also goes against fiction and the wiki's general interpretation that creation and destruction are equal.

ProfessorKukui4Life · Mar 11, 2020

Overlord775 said:
we threat pocket dimensions containing a planet as 5-B tho

This. Kaguya Otsutsuki's dimensions for instance were literally just treated as 5-B sized dimensions until it was proven they contained stars for her to get her 4-C upgrade.

SomebodyData · Mar 11, 2020

@Edward we only do so if said dimension has a city inside, its why PMMM hasn't gotten any new barrier calcs. If it was wide enough to contain a city, but wasn't produced in it, its not 7-B.

@Shadow and Overlord, yes, but not based on the size of the actual dimension. Size of the dimension is used for tier 5-3, whereas what is inside is used for anything lower. For example, if there was a pocket dimension as wide as a planet, but there is no planet inside, its not a feat.

Or at least that's how it was last time I checked, could have changed while I was away.

ProfessorKukui4Life · Mar 11, 2020

That doesnt make any sense though. If its as big as a planet, it should be a 5-B space regardless.

Dont we also do this with the ROSAT from DB?

SomebodyData · Mar 11, 2020

Perhaps things have changed since then, like I said. I just remember this because it brought about a pretty large debate in PMMM for a long time.

~~Though if its okay now, don't mind me, but Imma be calcing a few things.~~

Elizhaa · Mar 11, 2020

I found the old Pocket realm thread's Conclusion.

SomebodyData · Mar 11, 2020

Nvm then, you can calc tier 3-5 pocket dimensions but have to guess with smaller ones.

Still arbitary as all heck tho.

Overlord775 · Mar 11, 2020

not really arbitrary, just logic

if a dimension is the size of a town it's 7-C

if it's the size fo a moon it's 5-C

if it's the size of a galaxy it's 3-C

and so on

Antoniofer · Mar 11, 2020

Is still kind of arbitrary, if the domain is just empty space then what qualify as town? 1.5 km? 30 km? the dimension could be 100 km in radius, and would still have less matter than a town.

Overlord775 · Mar 11, 2020

you still have to make said empy space, space-time fabric won't just make itself you know

For the size, we just use IRL standards for what a town is

Jaften · Mar 11, 2020

Yes, but how do we calculate the energy required to create space-time fabric?

Yeah, that's kind of a major problem with including the "creating the empty space" in our assumptions.

Overlord775 · Mar 11, 2020

we just assume it requires "a lot"

Antoniofer · Mar 11, 2020

Hah, yeah, but "town sized" is not standarized size, and "town sized" empty space being Town level is still arbitrary. If we use amount of matter, I'm pretty sure that a town of 7 km^2 have more matter than kilometers and kilometers of empty space.

Overlord775 · Mar 11, 2020

Antonio, why do you keep ignoring the point ?

Pocket dimensions AREN'T JUST THE MATTER inside of them, they are mainly the space-time making them up

also we can just use the size that makes a town large enought to not be a village

Jaften · Mar 11, 2020

Overlord775 said:
we just assume it requires "a lot"

So are you saying then that any profiles with pocket reality feats should have their AP tier decided by more concrete feats, and their pocket reality feat should be "far higher with pocket reality"?

On that note, maybe we should count pocket reality feats the same way as we do environmental destruction feats? With many characters there's often a fairly large disconnect between a character's combat feats and their ability to make a (at least as we count them right now) 4-A pocket reality...

InfiniteSped · Mar 11, 2020

How do you compare an (I assume) spherical empty space with a town? Do you take into account the space above and below the town as well? Or just the volume of matter in a town?

Pocket dimensions with stars in them

El SiD

El SiD

El SiD

El SiD

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