Meta Knights's rivals face off in a sword duel

Yep, it's Zero vs Yoda

Anyway, both 4-B, speed equalized, who wins and why?

WHAT AM I FIGHTING FOR!!!!!: 2

Baby Yoda: 0

Inconclusive: 0

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Erm? Lol? Gonna say zero, via time stop and ap edge.

Necromercer said:

Erm? Lol? Gonna say zero, via time stop and ap edge.

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Are those good enough reasons to count?

yeah. oh, db chat?

Necromercer said:

yeah. oh, db chat?

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Maybe, but I'm in the middle of school, and my WiFi ain't the best. Also, what I'm saying is that usually you need to give more detailed reasoning for why a certain character wins, that's how threads function on here.

okay.

Yoda leaps at Zero. Zero stops time and cuts him to bits, blasts him with lasers, dragon flies, etc.

Zero's tougher, and he's got way more options to kill yoda than yoda dose to kill him.

so vote Zero.

Kay, I'll count it.

okay what is the respost of mindhax

Don't think mindhax would work, as it dose't work on robots in the star wars verse.

Zero.

Yoda cannot mindhax robots and Zero has the edge in almost every category otherwise except for an experience gap (200 vs 900). Yoda could try to repel it by setting up a force shield as precog might tell him when Zero's about to stop time but Zero would likely break through eventually due to having higher AP. I see them as comparable skill wise but Zero's abilities are just harder for Yoda to counter than Yoda's are for Zero to counter. His telekinesis can be broken out of, Zero has more stamina for a sword fight than Yoda, and while Yoda could throw things back at Zero with tutaminis, like his ice or fire powers, that takes a toll on Yoda's force reserves and Zero could either dodge it or even no-sell it due to resisting all of the hax he uses.


Zero mid-low difficulty.

BruceTheBatman said:

Zero.

Yoda cannot mindhax robots and Zero has the edge in almost every category otherwise except for an experience gap (200 vs 900). Yoda could try to repel it by setting up a force shield as precog might tell him when Zero's about to stop time but Zero would likely break through eventually due to having higher AP. I see them as comparable skill wise but Zero's abilities are just harder for Yoda to counter than Yoda's are for Zero to counter. His telekinesis can be broken out of, Zero has more stamina for a sword fight than Yoda, and while Yoda could throw things back at Zero with tutaminis, like his ice or fire powers, that takes a toll on Yoda's force reserves and Zero could either dodge it or even no-sell it due to resisting all of the hax he uses.


Zero mid-low difficulty.

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Wait, question. Has Yoda ever mind haxed a droid in the past? I'm just curious.

No. Droids=Non Living, which equals no mind.

Necromercer said:

No. Droids=Non Living, which equals no mind.

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Kay, thanks.

no problem

Tbh, I can't really call this a stomp, given how Yoda still could win through matter manipulation possibly. That is, unless Zero resists this.

I don't think so. Anyway, the votes are now

Zero: 2

Yoda: 0

Zero FRA

They don't? I recall that they have worked on robots in the Star Wars franchise. When did it display it not actually working?

Zero is wanked by users saying that he will use OoC moves, Yoda's beyond downplayed.

>"Zero has the edge in almost every category otherwise except for an experience gap"

Quite false, more of that in what you claim of it.

>"I see them as comparable skill"

Zero's nothing next to Yoda in terms of skill.

>"His telekinesis can be broken out of"

The f*ck?

>"Zero has more stamina for a sword fight than Yoda"

Of all the stuff going on SW you point out stamina as a factor? Really? Coming from the same user who just moments before said "Yoda could try to repel it by setting up a force shield" I see that you lack either knowledge or creativity here.

I would love to say that SW supporters have to take fault by having Yoda's profile so outdated...but with the illogical things said here, the respect threads ignored and the wanked at Zero, there just bias here. Someone should call here a few more informed SW supporters than me to make this a real fight, I both don't have the time and I'm not as expert in the verse as others.

bump

I can ask some. I didn't feel like something was off when I saw zero winning so easily.

Eh, the only thing I really see going in Zero's favor is his AP, as well as the fact that he cannot be affected by Yoda's Telepathy. However, Yoda can use Telekinesis to his advantage, holding Zero in place and then cutting him up with his lightsaber.

CalebTB12 said:

Eh, the only thing I really see going in Zero's favor is his AP, as well as the fact that he cannot be affected by Yoda's Telepathy. However, Yoda can use Telekinesis to his advantage, holding Zero in place and then cutting him up with his lightsaber.

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Timestop. Just Saying.

This is looking kinda close as of now.

@Eficiente

Chill the hell out with what you're saying here, calling people biased because their uninformed is immature. Not everybody knows everything about eachothers characters or abilities.

Timestop. Just Saying.

I'm not all that familiar with Zero as a character, but I believe Efi pointed out it was OoC? Even if it's not, it's projectile-based according to his profile, meaning Yoda can stop that with his Telekinesis as well.

Point hardly taken. In the same sentence where I called them that I also previously noted how it wasn't really the profile's whole fault. It makes no sense for me to tell them that just for being uninformed.

Timestop. Just Saying.
The TK has no reason to disappear in stopped time. That power may be useless in that scenario.

@Efi


">"Zero has the edge in almost every category otherwise except for an experience gap"

Quite false, more of that in what you claim of it."

How? He's stronger, likely more broken, more able to fight through things that would finish Yoda, tougher, has abilities to counter almost all of Yoda's with little difficulty, while Yoda's abilities to counter Zero's would greatly drain his stamina (more on that later), and has more experience fighting people who actually are a threat to him.

"Zero's nothing next to Yoda in terms of skill."

Zero has really only lost one fight (and has otherwise had a few draws) against Vile in his 200 year life span, and while his sword is his primary weapon, he also knows how to use guns, tonfas, whips, staffs, hammers, shields, and has various abilities at his disposal. You can argue Yoda being 5x older might give him the experience edge, but then again, Yoda spent most of that time meditating on the force, while Zero was in war for basically half his life (a little under 100 was spent in stasis). Saying either is "nothing" to the other is a bit of stretch in my opinion. He would outduel the vast, vast majority of the Star Wars verse in a stats equal melee-only fight, even in Legends.

">"His telekinesis can be broken out of"

The f*ck?"

SW TK can be overpowered by people with higher AP last I checked. Shimrra was more powerful than Luke (or at least equal, but could keep up the same power for longer due to his physiology), didn't have TK, but wasn't getting ragdolled by Skywalker during their duel even though Luke was powerful enough to use force abilities against the Vong despite their supposed resistance. Luke didn't try to gain distance and then manhandle him. Therefore it follows a similar outcome would occur here. Not to mention Zero isn't just gonna stand there while Yoda does things, so much like Grievous vs Shaak Ti on Hypori, he might not even have the time to use something like TK if Zero is lashing at him because he's too focused trying to block.


">"Zero has more stamina for a sword fight than Yoda"

Of all the stuff going on SW you point out stamina as a factor? Really? Coming from the same user who just moments before said "Yoda could try to repel it by setting up a force shield" I see that you lack either knowledge or creativity here."

Yoda has stamina issues compared to other force users iirc one, and even if he didn't, he's still limited by physiology, Zero kept going without repairs for a year from Zero 3-4 after beating Copy X and the Guardians who are all not far behind him, as well as some characters who can damage him. Any long, drawn out battle between these two is going to favor Zero. X and Sigma can still funciton somewhat well without an arm. There is no reason Zero couldn't do so as well.

"I lack either knowledge or creativity here".

Okay, well, Zero (in the X Series) has a time stop that is omnidirectional and instant. What the hell else is Yoda exactly supposed to do to counter it other than build as powerful a force shield as he can to protect himself? He can't stop Zero from activating it by interrupting him since it's not something like Chaos Control, if that's what you're thinking. Zero just thinks, and time stands still. Even if Yoda is manhandling him with TK or something like that, if Zero stops time (which also counters the idea of Zero , one of the following two scenarios occur.

Scenario 1: Yoda's control is lost. Zero possibly goes flying, gets back up, runs over to Yoda, and lobs his head off. Yoda loses.

Scenario 2: Yoda is still holding Zero (and for the sake of argument, Zero can't get out of it by force). Zero pulls out a gun and shoots Yoda in, depending on where his lightsaber is, a limb, his head, his chest, or some other place that results in an injury that cripples Yoda, maybe even destroying his lightsaber as well. Yoda cannot block it because he is stopped in time, and is either killed, crippled to the point he dies in the next 5 seconds, or has lost his lightsaber, his only real means of keeping Zero at bay without drawing on his force reserves excessively, and therefore either dies or has to retreat before Zero kills him because his force powers are weakening (tutaminis is one of the more draining force abilities when used against very powerful opponents for a long stretch of time, seeing as Yoda was completely exhausted after using it to repel Palpatine's lightning).


Also, I'd appreciate if you took your accusations of wank and left them at the door. I love both franchises (although I haven't kept up with either one lately if I'm being honest).


@Caleb

Zero's time stop isn't really OoC afaik, considering one boss uses a time stop in character, but setting that aside, his time stops are different in each series. In the X series he can only stop it once before having to recharge it, but it's a universal time stop. In the Zero series, he can spam it as much as he wants but it's projectile based.

But even if it was, he doesn't need it to beat Yoda anyway.

"However, Yoda can use Telekinesis to his advantage, holding Zero in place and then cutting him up with his lightsaber."

That might work, but it wouldn't be an insta-kill the same way Zero's time stop would be, since Zero can take hits from basically the same thing. Yoda isn't gonna be able to pull a Blade Mode from Metal Gear with that. If this is MMZ Zero, he actually has a pretty solid counter to this (and another insta-kill move) with a cyber elf with omnidirectional transmutation (M-orell M-orque, M-oria, etc) that could just turn Yoda's saber into a health item. Maybe even Yoda himself. That, or he could use the phase chip and dodge it by going intangible for a brief period, which he can do indefinitely.


Additionally, it's entirely possible Zero won't just be fighting Yoda 1v1. He can create dragonflies and, briefly, an intangible doppelganger, (MMX) or bring out cyber elves (MMZ) to attack Yoda and back him up, who can damage people who can fight him, although they are rather weak compared to him.

So Yoda will be dealing with that plus Zero hacking and slashing away at him, and assuming this is MMZ Zero (where his time stop is projectile based), Zero's cyber elves do run out, but his weapon and chip energy do not, although they obvious can be broken the same applies to Yoda's lightsaber, and Yoda's force powers do run out. Sure, Yoda could try to throw one at Zero, but that leaves him open to being attacked by Zero or his dragonflies, and Cyber Elves aren't physical (just made of energy) so could Yoda even touch them? He could use tutaminis but again, that drains him further and also, again, leaves him open to attack either from another one of Zero's items. He could also try an omnidirectional force blast, but I'm pretty sure he needs a second to charge it up.


For the sake of argument, let's go through some of Palpatine's abilities that I think most of us would agree Yoda should have most of what Palpatine may have. I'll be cutting through the ones Yoda definitely doesn't have (like immortality type 6 obviously), dark side powers, and powers that just don't matter, like martial arts and superhuman characteristics, or powers that really wouldn't come into play, like mind manip or aura sensing.

Stealth Mastery: Zero has fought people with stealth before, like Phoenix Magnion and Phantom. Didn't stop him from winning.

Precognition: Lets him know when certain powers are coming maybe, sure. Does not let him predict exactly when a chop to the head will come though.

Telekinesis: Won't really help him in any of the ways described above since they are counterable by his opponent. As for just throwing objects at Zero, Zero can just chope them up, blast them to pieces, dodge them, etc

Forcefield Creation: Lets him possibly tank a time stop without dying, but he'd have to put a LOT of force energy into it before Zero basically just thinks.

Mind Manipulation/Memory Manipulation: Usually a SW gamebreaker. Not gonna work here though.

Energy Manipulation (Can reflect, redirect, and absorb energy attacks Via Tutaminis): One of the best moves he has against Zero, and also one of his most draining.

Healing: Cannot heal sufficiently fatal wounds.

Matter Manipulation (Sub-Atomic, Able to create a Holocron, which requires one to make numerous precision alterations to it on a subatomic scale, as well as create and manipulate weapons on a molecular level, though this is not combat applicable. Through Art of the Small he can directly manipulate things on a molecular level, compress things on a molecular level with Dimension Shift, and vibrate molecules to create fire with Pyrokinesis): While all of that is well and good, I don't think it's gonna net him a win, it's just not effective enough and Zero can resist things like Crystal Hunter and attacks from Cyber Elves trying to kill him.

Air Manipulation (Via Alter Environment, Adiabatic Shield, and Force Whirlwind): Might stun Zero ala KOTOR, but he could still get out of that.

Weather Manipulation (Via Alter Environment and Summon Storm)

Heat Manipulation (Via Alter Environment, Tapas, Convection, and Cryomancy): Zero is resistant to absolute zero and star-level temperatures iirc (or earth core level? I forget admittedly). Either way, it's not gonna cut it.

Non-Physical Interaction: Lets him hit Cyber Elves, but it doesn't mean they aren't a threat to him.

Light Manipulation (Via Force Blinding and Force Flash): Not sure if this would even work, honestly. Zero's optical abilities are much better than a typical organic.

Power Nullification (Via Force Light, Sever Force, and Dampen Force): Only works on other force users when sealing away force powers, like with Ulic-Qel Droma. Won't come into play here.

Paralysis Inducement (Via Force Stun): Zero isn't organic, not gonna work.

Willpower Manipulation (Via Force of Will, Battle Meditation, Crush Opposition, and Malicious Fury): This is a little tricky admitttedly, but I doubt it'd work. Zero's power doesn't come from his willpower or desire to do what he believes, just his desire to protect those he loves and believes in, and that is not gonna falter.

Sound Manipulation (Via Sound Mimicry, Force Bellow, and Force Scream): Has never come into play in any SW as far as I know.

Morality Manipulation: Zero is more or less true neutral. Maybe heroic neutral. Any circumstance that involves the two fighting is unlikely as is, and only gets more likely if Zero's morality is shifted to being evil. In character Zero wouldn't really find a reason to fight Yoda.

Time Travel (Via Time-Drifting): Palpatine and Yoda have never used this. No reason to believe Yoda is gonna go back in time and murder Wily or something like that.

Technology Manipulation (Via Technometry, Electronic Manipulation, Mechu-Deru, and Mechu-Deru Vitae): This gives Yoda superhuman engineering skills, not technopathy. Not gonna work here.

Illusion Creation (Via Alter Mind, Dreamscape, Force Illusion, Masquerade, Dark Illusion, and Mindform): Wouldn't work since Zero wouldn't even see the illusions because he's not organic.

Explosion Manipulation (Via Combustion, Force Bomb, and Force Burst): Could work, but since Zero's AP is higher, he can't just do this. https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11120/111201000/4811594-unnamed.jpg

Attack Reflection (Via Force Deflection), energy absorption and projection: Tutaminis, very useful here, but again, highly draining on Yoda compared to many of his abilities.


There's a few more, but I'm tired for the night so I'm gonna stop here. I think anybody reading gets the picture. Sure, Yoda can counter a lot of Zero's hax too, but unlike Zero's case, most of it requires effort on Yoda's part to circumvent. The only thing he can't really counter in any way is precognition.

Based on this, I'm voting Zero, with some difficulty. Yoda will be able to dodge/counter for a long while, but, as you stated, he can't do much to resist without using a considerable amount of effort, meaning he'll eventually run out of energy.

Zero FRA.

Real question is that if Force users could mind hax droids or not? If there's a single showing of it. Then, Yoda just mind haxes and if there's not. Then, Yoda can't mind hax.

Not answering to BruceTheBatman's comment. I recommended to call more informed SW supporters here and no one made an argument for Yoda yet, I find the votes notably unwise.

Mmm... Considering Bruce's arguments, I shall be assuming we're using composite Zero for this.

I cooooooooouuuuuuuuuuulllld make an argument that Zero kills Yoda before he mindhaxes (regardless of whether or not it works), seeing as this Zero has a shit ton of speed amps that stack up on him (X8, Z3 & Z4 demonstrate this). Black Armor amps his speed by 4x, Croire (his Z4 Cyber Elf) and other satellite Cyber Elves passively amp his speed by 1.5x each one, his many parts from the X series and his forms from Z2, etc. Granted, the last 2 are not passive speed amps: he needs to equip them.

So, Zero could potentially blitz, and the fact that the Mega Men's typical go to element is ice (which in their verse is AZ), should make things easier.

Just for a wee bit of brain food I guess.

Well, do you guys think using a cerain era for Zero would make this more debatable, or even change things at all?

Mmz probably, since MMX is the one with a universal time stopper

ANormalMetalSheevite said:

Real question is that if Force users could mind hax droids or not? If there's a single showing of it. Then, Yoda just mind haxes and if there's not. Then, Yoda can't mind hax.

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He obviously can't since if he could why wouldn't Yoda, or some other Jedi, mind has the droid army during the clone wars?

By the way Zero is one shot worthy AP wise so Yoda is completely screwed in any capacity in Close Quarters regardless of skill

@Eficiente No. "I see that you lack either knowledge or creativity"

"But with all the Zero wank, the ignored respect threads, there is some bias here"

You saying it isn't their fault because of the profile, is completely moot with what you throwing jabs at their intelligence just because they aren't as great at debating as you.

What IS Yoda's ap?

Bump