The Big Lez Show Revisions (+ Some 1-A Shenanigans)

Yeah.

The Downgrades
Currently, Leslie Mackerel and those who scale to him are rated at 6-C, notably because Lez himself survived a point blank explosion that obliterated the Choomahviatha, a giant fungus who took the form of an entire sentient island.

Now, there are obvious problems with this scale, namely because, as the Choomahviathan's profile itself states, Lez' attacks couldn't harm it in any way, and considering that he regularly fights against people who can hurt him, scaling his physical strength to an explosion that obliterated the Choomahviathan and was treated as being able to kill him and all of his friends is plain wrong.

There is also how Lez didn't tank the explosion at its epicenter, so he naturally only endured a small portion of it, rather than its entire output.

Lez and the boys are also regularly threatened and harmed by normal Choomahs, who are in turn easily killed and blown up by firearms and the like, so scaling all of them to the Choomahviathan is most definitely a no-no.

So, what should they be rated at? Well, I'd say 9-A to 8-C is a good middle ground for the main cast, given that they were completely unscathed by the explosion of the SassM8, which obliterated nearby Choomahs, and how Lez and Norton received only minor cuts and bruises after tanking the explosion of a garage at point blank range. Cecil also endured being thrown off a building and then crashing through several layers of concrete without significant damage other than being slightly dazed.

Also, Clarence is currently rated at 6-C with the SassM8, which is also wrong, since the explosive itself isn't anywhere that powerful on its own, and he only managed to pulverize the Choomahviathan because the bomb was detonated next to its heart.

The Upgrades
As some of you may know, Sassy the Sasquatch was initially rated at 1-A when his profile was created, most specifically because he exists outside of all reality and perceives it as fiction, which he can manipulate and control by drawing on "Microskoft Paint", which is an obvious metafictional reference to the fact that the series was itself drawn and animated on MS Paint (At least originally), and this, coupled with the fact that Sassy states that there is an infinite number of dimensions in the verse, apparently contributed to his rating.

However, this thread came along and people started questioning his rating, which led to him being downgraded to Low 1-C. The main arguments were that there was no evidence that the "infinite dimensions" which Sassy referred to were actually spatio-temporal dimensions, as opposed to being simply alternate spaces or universes, mostly because, in the context of the scene, dimensions were being referred to as places, something which higher dimensions are not, as they are just axes of movement, moreso constants of physical space than anything else.

But with the last episode of the series, released a fair while ago, there is some new context as to the nature of dimensions in The Big Lez Show, which I believe can solidify the possibility of Sassy's 1-A rating. Namely, the episode in question is Choomah Island 3. In it, Sassy and Donny (Another transcendent sasquatch like him) get really high, and after smoking a special joint which Donny got his hands into, they are warped into other planes of existence, eventually reaching one where the only thing is a small door in front of a cliff.

At the end of the episode, Sassy and Donny actually open the door and get sucked into it, and then they land into another plane of existence where they are drawn super crudely, and Sassy then says that they are in the first dimension or some shit.

After deciding to get out of there, both of them smoke another special joint, which in turns takes them into higher dimensions, and Sassy describes leaving the first dimension as them getting "more real"... Until they get too real and end up in the real world (kek).

Anyways, this scene fairly clearly shows that dimensions in Big Lez are actually treated as places and layers of reality that are progressively more "real" than one another, and this isn't the only time that this implication was made in the series, such as in this scene, where Sassy says "third" in response to Donny asking what dimension they are in.

In my opinion, this gives credence to the idea that Sassy's statement of infinite dimensions was in fact referring to something that could qualify for High 1-B, especially when one notes that dimensions are never referred to as being alternate universes in Big Lez (which as a series doesn't really tackle this concept with frequency), with the closest thing to that being Sassy using the term to describe a timeless, spaceless void where people can create whatever they imagine using their thoughts, including whole universes.

Assuming that he meant infinite universes is just assuming things that are not suggested by the series itself, especially when, again, Sassy explicitly uses the term to refer to higher and lower planes of existence in Choomah Island 3, and considering that he was in a higher dimension when Lez asked his question (Are we in another dimension or something?, followed by How many dimensions there are?), I wouldn't say that supposing he was referring to higher planes is out of the question, especially when those higher planes would likely be the "dimensions" Sassy would be familiar with, in the context of the verse.

Hence, I believe that an 1-A rating is in order for Sassy based on this.

Now, we get to the real meat of the upgrades.

As previously mentioned, the entire universe of The Big Lez Show is contained in a Microsoft Paint program, which is where all of existence is drawn and animated, being contained in what is called "The Box", in this case an allusion to the blank canvas you use to draw stuff in MS Paint.

Now, this is just for context, the upgrades are will suggest are mainly due to what happens in Choomah Island 2: Lez smokes a magical joint which Sassy gave to him, and is suddenly transported to the middle of a blank void, where he then sees himself being animated in a Microsoft Paint header. After that, the screen starts to zoom out and reveal a recursion of several other screens, with the screen showing Lez watching himself being animated being in turn contained in another screen, which is contained in another, and so on and so forth, until Lez leaves the recursion altogether and sees it drift away in the distance as he is pulled backwards.

I am aware that this might sound a bit suspicious when used as evidence for any upgrades, but this scene is actually referenced and explained by Sassy later on, in the same episode. Namely, he explains that both he and Lez are outside of the Box in which their universe is created in, both also simultaneously inside it, which is a pretty obvious reference as to how they are not truly outside of their fictional universe, but just in another layer that is nonetheless still contained in the story being animated, as metafiction is ultimately still part of fiction.

Hence, what is seen earlier is just the logical result of this idea: Lez seeing himself being created in the Box was just fiction, and so was the Lez watching him, and so on ad-infinitum. It just creates an infinite recursion of fiction within fiction, boxes within bigger boxes. The fact that Sassy is seen drawing a grassy landscape and then himself into the emptiness even suggests that this whole sequence was also fictional from his perspective, and that he was acting on an even higher layer.

Due to this, I do think that even if the stuff about "infinite dimensions" is rejected, then a solid 1-A rating is fully reasonable for Sassy, as he exists above an infinite series of fictional layers, the lowest of which contains the series' universe as a bunch of drawings inside itself.

Although, if the High 1-B stuff is accepted, then things get a bit more interesting. For those who aren't fully caught up on the explanations, assuming that it is valid would make the verse's cosmology be structured roughly like this:

Infinite Dimensions < Infinite recursion of Boxes that each transcend one another < Final layer where Sassy resides and the rest of the episode happens.

So, if we accept the "infinite dimensions" as being valid evidence showing that the series' universe is High 1-B, then the infinite hierarchy of boxes that Lez flies past would be logically rated at 1-A+ and Sassy himself would be High 1-A for transcending it entirely and being on another layer apart from it.

EDIT: After thinking about it more, I believe that an 1-A+ is more appropriate for Sassy if we accept the whole recursion of boxes as being something actually tierable, considering that, if it is considered an hierarchy, then Sassy is moreso really far into it as opposed to being on a different framework altogether. He'd be High 1-A if he transcended the entire recursion of Boxes, but given that he describes himself as still being within the Box in some way, 1-A+ is probably a safer choice.

I do acknowledge that this may seem weird and a bit off-putting for some, so nonetheless, I will play safe, be conservative and suggest an "At least 1-A, possibly 1-A+" for Sassy provided the former suggestion goes through.

Furthermore, there is also evidence that Sassy is Transdual while outside of the Box as well, notably because the Big Lez Show has itself delved into the concept that everything in the universe is one and the same, and that multiplicity is an illusion, such as when Sassy merges Lez' consciousness with an entire universe he created from a blank void of nothingness, and then implies this is Lez' natural state of existence ("Isn't it amazing what you are, deep down?")

Similarly, when Lez meets Sassy outside of the Box, he repeatedly references how the two of them are the same being while in this realm, and alludes to how they share the same voice actor ("You and I, same thing, same voice")

It's not primary evidence for 1-A Sassy, but it's a nice supporting thing, though I can understand if people think it's vague.

Miscellaneous Revisions
Past all of that, I also believe that the Sasquatches shouldn't scale to Tier 1 ratings when residing in the third dimension, considering that they regularly engage in daily activities alongside the rest of the cast and are always portrayed as being more or less comparable to them by default, to the point that they use firearms to deal with the Choomahs just like the rest of them, and at one point, Sassy and Donny even get stuck in the first dimension and have to smoke one of their magical joints to get out of there.

Hence, I think it is pretty clear that they are only Tier 1 in their True Forms, which exist outside of the Box entirely and are said to be able to make a Kingdom Comian's head explode if they tried to explain where they came from.

Although, as an addition of sorts, I believe Sassy should get an "Up to Low 2-C" rating, since he and the Sasquatches have the "PLAC-key" in their possession, which allows them to access an empty dimension where time is nonexistent and people can create whatever they want with their thoughts, Sassy in specific having created an entire universe and merged both himself and Lez with it, as shown above.

Plus, Lez should probably get a key for his End of Series self, which is heavily implied to have ascended to some higher plane of existence outside of the series altogether, since he left a letter for Sassy in the real world after his death, and a joint for him to come back to the fictional universe.

He also had a Super Saiyan-ish transformation earlier in the episode, which allowed him to casually fight and defeat King Laranox, who is stated to have destroyed the planet of Kingdom Come by himself before the events of the series, pretty much shattering it in half, which should be around High 6-A to 5-C, given the state of the planet when Leslie goes visit it.

Well, this was definitely unexpected. I'll wait to see how this is received.

What is this.

The end of an Era, Nepuko. A Sasquatch is about to solo some verses.

The 1-A seems fine.

Buuut I disagree with the 1-A+ stuff. The recursive "seeing himself seeing himself" doesn't remotely imply that there are an infinite amount of boxes stacked on each other. It just seems like a visual way of showing how the box still contains him partially (and thus, shows him seeing the box)

The "you're in and outside the box at the same time" thingy doesn't help. If anything it just shows how the transcendance is partial for the character.

I took that as being because of the metafictional nature of the Box, though, not because their transcendence over it is only partial. They are standing outside of their fictional universe, but also not really, since metafiction is still constrained within the framework of its own fiction even if it addresses it. You can even see Sassy drawing stuff in the blankness before Lez meets him and is shown Paint, so that just serves to hammer the point home.

The 2nd Existential Seed said:

The end of an Era, Nepuko. A Sasquatch is about to solo some verses.

Click to expand...

Can it be more outlandish than a High 1-A doggo (masada).

Also, I agree with the ratings and the upgrades. While not very sure about High 1-A, the "possibly" is conservative enough anyway.

Well them still being inside the box still indicates that they aren't like, fully transcendantal over everything.

That's not the point anyway. The point is that nothing indicates the presence of an infinite amount of box layers. It just seems like an interpretation of yours, an interpretation I don't agree with.

I agree with Saikou

Yeah, I agree with that, thinking about it. I am leaning more towards suggesting 1-A+ now, since they imply that there are still further layers of boxes beyond the one where Sassy resides.

What interpretation, though? It pretty clearly shows several layers of Boxes being contained inside one another, and Sassy's statements only serve to reinforce that the layers are indeed real.

Also tfw nobody comments on the downgrades

No downgrades for you

Ultima. Have you ever watched a stream? Sometimes the stream will film its own stream window, which creates an infinite loop of the stream showing the stream showing the stream.

Considering what you're saying, this seems to be a pretty obvious reference to that. The box is showing the show itself, and the show, well, shows the box. So the box shows the bow showing the box showing the box showing the box.

It doesn't have to imply that all those instances are anything real and tangible beyond just the visual effect.

Also I don't see how Sassy' statements relates to this. He only seems to talk about how they are inside and outside the box at the same time.

It does have to imply this, though, given the Box isn't something like a camera or a recorder, it's just what contains all of existence and the things that are drawn in it are pretty clearly physical and able to be interacted with, going by how the grassy realm Sassy created was treated as an actual, physical reality, and how he also states that everything in the universe comes from it in the first place.

Because, as I've already said, this statement is referring to how they are apparently overlooking their own fictional universe from outside, but are nonetheless still bound by it in a wider scale, since they are still just characters being animated into the screen. Sassy could even draw things in the emptiness in which they were residing, despite also being outside of it and being able to show Microsoft Paint to Lez. That's why they were "in the box but also outside the box".

The box is still a visual medium. The entire verse isn't visible just from the single box, it just shows what needs to be shown. Shit exist outside of what's shown from Microsoft Paint. The visual box can still show the visual box showing the visual box showing the visual box etc. without those boxes being real places.

It's not just a visual medium that shows representations of things, though. Sassy states that this is where Lez' entire life was created, and that he could pretty much write down his own fate and history by drawing in it, and like I said, Sassy and Lez were still in the emptiness of the Box even though they were simultaneously outside of it (For reasons I've already explained), and the former could create an actual, physical realm that could be interacted with.

The fact you actually see Lez being pulled through the infinite recursion of boxes until it drifts away in the distance should also pretty clearly tell those are actual places, not just fancy visual metaphors, along with pretty much everything I've said here.

Seems reasonable.

I agree with the physical downgrades, not sure about the dimensional stuff though. In Chooma Island 2, Ellis tanks this and Cecil survives a fall from cloud level as well as the former pushing him into the ground hard enough to make a large crater.

Sure the box itself might contain all that, but what we see of the box is just a representation. It might not be just visual, but it's still just a small preview of the entire verse. You don't see the infinite dimensions at once for example, just what needs to be shown for the show.

Again it doesn't mean you can't interact with the world or create physical stuff with it. But ultimately it's still just a preview that shows a part of the world. So it showing a loop of Lez staring endlessly into a screen doesn't have to mean that it's a literal loop that's going.

Your statements or the fact that Sassy can interact with what he draws doesn't contradict this.

This interpretation of yours still relies on the assumption that the Box is simply a visual medium which is showing us images and representations of things which are neither physical nor necessarily able to be interacted with much like a security camera or a video, hence your analogy with Livestreams and shit.

I've already shown that this is not the case, considering that everything in the verse is a drawing contained within The Box in the first place, and Lez is pretty clearly physically pulled through infinite layers until he sees them drifting away in the distance, so the things shown in it are very much real and not just visual effects. You've even acknowledged that what Sassy himself draws can be interacted with, so it just logically follows that all of those layers within layers were actual places as well.

They do contradict your assumptions, though, since what Sassy says basically means that they are outside of the Box in which their universe is drawn, but still inside it in the sense that they are still fictional characters regardless of that and thus contained in a larger Box, like I said three times by now, and the fact they were in the emptiness even when Lez was being directly shown Paint pretty much gives it away; that's what causes the infinite regress. It's pretty much basic interpretation of the scene's context.

Bump

Bump┬▓

I tend to trust Ultima's judgement in regards to higher dimensional shenanigans. These suggestions look good to me. The box in the context of the show is clearly supposed to represent the entire reality contained within Microskoft Paint.

One thing I am unsure of, doesn't each layer have to be qualitatively superior to the previous for this to qualify for 1-A? or is that already contained within the infinite dimensions inside the box?

Yeah, but this is already shown by how the higher dimensions are all defined as layers of reality that are more "real" than lower ones in the verse.

Okay sounds good to me. Would existing outside of an infinite dimensional construct and transcending it completely not qualiy for High 1-A?

No, that'd be just 1-A. Sassy being higher than that would be only if we accept the whole infinite regress of boxes within boxes as being legitimate for tiering, and even then, he would be only 1-A+.

Ah yes, I can see where I read the new tiering system incorrectly. Cool.

Like Saikou, I think that 1-A seems to make sense, but am very uncertain about 1-A+. It is probably best to ask Sera to comment here.

I don't want to bother Sera about that.

Okay.

I agree with Ultima after looking at the thread.

Well, I suppose that "At least 1-A, possibly 1-A+" might make sense, but I would prefer more staff input.

Bump the third.

You can ask some other staff members to comment here if you wish.

I'm fine with stuff like the Final Layer being 1-A but I don't believe in 1-A+ here.

Why though. The stuff about the infinite regress of boxes is relatively clear cut when put in conjunction with other statements. I'd understand doubting it if it was something visually akin to Destiny's Book from DC, where the recursion expands "internally" and moreso due to some abstract nature than anything, but you can actually see the guy being physically pushed upwards through all of the layers, so I think saying those are physical locations that are actually containing each other isn't much of a stretch.

Does 1-A+ even exist on our tiering system? I heard of High 1-A, but not 1-A+.

It does. It's for stuff that's infinite levels above baseline 1-A, kinda like the difference between High 1-B and Low 1-C.

Well, I personally think that this seems to make sense, but would prefer some staff consensus.

Um 1-A+ exists right?

It is not an "official" tier per se, but it exists as a "+" modifier to 1-A, and represents basically the High 1-B version of Outerversal.

Oh I see so its a higher version of 1-A but not seperate tier?