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Dumb level "skill", Ikki vs Han

Pretty sure Han stomps the same way he did before. The whole fate thing is outdone by his luck altering causuality too, after which Ikki's only way with keeping up in speed with Han Post amps last only a second and Han can teleport or avoid direct hits easily.
 
Fate and Causality things doesn't work on Desperados, they are Type 4 Acausals. And in this key Ikki can use Ittou Rasetsu more than once.
 
Ionliosite said:
Fate and Causality things doesn't work on Desperados, they are Type 4 Acausals. And in this key Ikki can use Ittou Rasetsu more than once.
Click to expand...
I am saying it would let Han not be fate manipulated into death. He can just outlast Ikki otherwise.

And how many times can he? Han can teleport, can forcefully put Ikki into one of his pocket dimensions to make him unable to eat or drink, and he is fine with fighting for months.

Between that and his info analysis and precognition, as well as the hundreds of golems that can regenerate from anything Ikki does to them, I doubt Ikki can do much to win.
 
Ikki's fate manip should be much stronger than Han's due to working on Type 4 Acausals, but he doesn't use it in the same way as Edelweiss. He mainly uses it to stop people from making actions and stuff like that.

I don't remember exactly how many times he can do it now. Can you remind me by how many times can Han amp himself?

Ikki's Info Analysis and Precognition are much better than Han's. And not only that, Han won't be capable of predicting him due to Type 4. And which golems are these?
 
Han amps himself once, but it stays active until he either runs out of mana (which can't happen normally) or he dispels it.

Ikkivs info analysis is nothing like Jan's. His is, much to the meme, done through skill in observation. Han uses magic to get information about enemies, their abilities, their lives' summary, their stats and feelings, their weaknesses, and any status effect they have, and he can use his precog to make the best possible way to defeat someone with the knowledge he has on them.

The 7-A ones are the golems he has, plus his four elementals.

Han could very well just stay out of his range and just play civilization and have his golems, some summoned demons and some undead keep assaulting Ikki until he has to fall asleep, he doesn't go into personal confrontation almost ever now says, and has even started putting enemies in his pocket dimension and staying outside of it himself.
 
And by how much these amps, well, amp?

Ikki was capable of analyzing and learning an entire style of swordsmanship by looking at a stance. And again, precog doesn't work due to Type 4 Acausality.

Mind linking the profile?

Ikki fights ranged opponents all the time and his senses will tell him about danger to just activate Ittou Rasetsu before Han does this.
 
His physical and magical abilities get extra 400% power (more than that, but that s the last concrete number we got) and time Dilatation increases his speed by hundreds of times.

Which doesn't matter. Nothing Han does really involves physical movement in it. There is no muscle to analyse against liquid sentient metal and energy blasts. And you can't see the future, you can use everything you know about them to predict what is the best way to beat them. He analyzes their info, and calculates the best way to beat them, acausuality does not factor in to that.

Golems (Han Jee-Han)

They are not in different dimensions altogether I imagine. Or hundreds of meters away, comparable to him in speed, and teleporting away every time he gets close. And Jan's amps activate instinctively whenever he enters battle, or feels danger, and the pocket dimension bfr can be used from kilometers away, so Ikki wouldn't be able to get to Han before Han can throw him into a desert to fight endlessly with both having their amps on.
 
Anyway so:

The amps aren't a big deal. Currently Ikki blitzes in base, it won't even give him a chance to speed amp. So unless we do something about it i don't see anything han can do. Even with speed amps. Ikki is MFTL+ with Rasetsu so it's still a blitz.

So ugh, info analysis....against Ikki. Ikki does understand everything you mentioned with his info analysis except he also understands principles and identity with it. But against it, Ikki is just as good. In the vermillion empire arc Edel states Ikki is comparable to her, which would make him resistant to info analysis via sheer skill (he's too skilled to be read by less skilled people, we can make the skill debate if you want but Han ain't topping the skill meme). Not to mention even if you analyze ikki you're not gonna gain anything. He's just a dude with a sword at best, he's not hiding anything you can't already see.

Quick clarification, he can't use Rasetsu more than once. He can fight after rasetsu, but not use amps. It just doesn't cripple him now (so after rasetsu it's not an instant game over, he can fight for a decent amount of time after).

Teleport gets negged by fate manip. It's pretty in character for Ikki to fate manip out certain actions if they include running away like he did vs Iris.

Ikki will be able to get to han before he does anything. He's much faster, he has precog and analytical prediction (though Analytical prediction won't kick in instantly). However even then Ikki has trackless step to use and other things like that.


Conclusion:

Ikki should be able to take this. Reasons:

  • Much more skilled
  • Blitz levels of faster
  • His nature and skill make info analysis pretty much useless.
  • He can fate hax away any escaping route making it a fair 1v1 fight where Han stands no chance against due to being vastly outskilled.
 
They are 4 kilometers apart, and Han speed amps as fast as he becomes awere he is in a fight on instinct. There is no way Ikki can cross that distance in that short amount a time.

With full amps Ikki's speed advantage isn't that high, only X5 from what I understand, which is really not enough to get Han when the latter can teleport on thought. And that's without counting thought acceleration, which amps his reactions by 10 times further.

Ikki understanding any of that doesn't matter. And no, the info analysis he resists is done by negating observation done through his skill, Han info analyzes people by getting a summary from Gaia, a being that can see all of time and fate, even of those that transcended the fate of the world, his resistance has nothing to do with how Han analyzes people. But regardless, Jan's analysis doesn't even matter that much.

Without Rasetsu he isn't keeping up with amped Han, so all that matters is weather he can kill Han in that one second. And no, phantom blade wouldn't work on Han, if it affects the body's stamina he simply overcomes the status effect and if it affects the mind he is plain immune, that isn't getting Han no matter how you spin it.

Han can just teleport to his pocket dimension, which is an ability that relies on his powers given by Gaia, a being that controls the fate of several dimensions, which is quiet a bit more than anything fate does in Ikki's world as far as I am awere.

Ikki is at best ten times faster and so, and that's taking into account Hanvs physical speed, since he was having an inner monologue when lightspeed attacks were coming at him.


Trackless step doesn't work either still. Even you have described it similar to hypnosis, but either way it doesn't work. Han' s mind isn't human at all. He has several senses outside of the regular ones that trackless step would be prepared to go in the lapse off, he has passive danger sense that would tell him regardless, his info analysis works on several meters cubed on all of the space he is inside of, his brain calculates things at a speed far beyond what is possible even for FTL people, and he also has his elemental summons that can sense anything in contact with their element.


On top of other things, Han can scatter people into pieces through spatial manipulation by pointing at them, he can reduce Ikki's speed by 50% with time manipulation and at least 30% within his pocket dimension, he would certainly use his amps before the battle starts, he would have thousands of golems out around him, he could just turn of the aoe mind control/destruction before the battle starts, and there is a lot of other stuff he could do.


Beyond that tough, can Ikki even travel four kilometers with his full amps on? I understand he should logically be able to cross one meter in less than that, but then I remember it being only possible to use for a single swing in his mhs key despite the fact that he should have been able to cross kilometers even there.
 
Ionliosite said:
And by how much these amps, well, amp?

Ikki was capable of analyzing and learning an entire style of swordsmanship by looking at a stance.
Click to expand...
If this has to do with the chick he felt up, this is so exaggerated that it hurts. If not, ignore me.
 
The real cal howard said:
If this has to do with the chick he felt up, this is so exaggerated that it hurts. If not, ignore me.
Click to expand...
Do explain your version of the feat. I mean why it's so exaggerated.
 
If this has to do with the chick he felt up, this is so exaggerated that it hurts. If not, ignore me.

No, this was Stella
 
Fair enough.

Teleportation and other escape means will be fate haxed away.

I could argue more here, but i guess we both agree Info analysis isn't really an edge against Ikki, so i'd rather just save brain cells.

Rasetsu is pretty much all he needs. Phantom form may not work, fair enough (it apparently makes people feel the pain of the attack even though they take no damage so this could actually solve all the inconsistencies like people with a strong will or without a will will resist it, it would count as stamina reduction, the only point it doesn't solve is the last one with the "wrong impression", but i'd rather stick with pain manip). Oikage (death hax) will work though. And that's something he uses in Ittou Rasetsu.

2 things. 1. Ikki doesn't nullify powers, he just forces stuff. He forces decisions via fate hax would be a way to put it. 2. Fate haxing several dimensions is range, not potency. Whereas Desperados can affect other desperados who are beings beyond the fate and causality of the world entirely.

I don't see how inner monologues really do anything about speed. It affect concentration not speed. Ikki has a feat like that with bullets, but the reason that is impressive is he only used hearing to dodge bullet barrage from an army. But it's not impressive as a speed feat, it's because he could dodge them while using only 1 sense and doing it by calculating the distance of the barrel from the sound, the trajectory of the bullet and it's speed and position with hearing alone all while not even paying attention.

Trackless Step ugh....nothing you mentioned is new. More senses? Everyone has that in rakudai. Danger sense? Ikki has that. His brain calculates at a very fast speed? Pretty sure nothing he has done comes close to Shizuku Kurogane's feat, yet she is the most common example of being absolutely destroyed by Trackless Step. To make Trackless Step not work you need some form of unconsciousness feat. So either completely lacking an unconsciousness or being capable of tapping into your unconsciousness.

The space manip will work. Speed downgrade? Time hax against type 4 ain't your best bet. Thousands of golems aren't something ikki needs to fight, he can just aim straight for Han. Not to mention fate haxing or fear haxing them if needed. As for mind manip, a weaker desperado like Iris used desperado traits to protect herself from Or-Gaule's mind hax, so i doubt Han's mind hax is affecting Ikki.

Well he didn't really need to cross kilometers. No matter how you take it, he was around 20 times faster than lighting there, he would have been able to move a lot more but, it's just PIS. It's not exactly ideal nor smart for the author to go like "He uses ittou rasetsu and then collapses he is now in Europe though so somebody get a plane to reach him". Sounds silly at best.
 
Yes, info analysis isn't making much of a difference beyond telling Han Ikki has a time-limit.

With his amps on, Ikki one-shots regardless. Jan's Gamer s Body perceives all attacks as a number of damage to be reduces from his HP. With or without causuality or deat manip, anything tiers above him that hits even a pinkie will insta-kill. Maybe not High 7-A, but tier 6 will kill Han if it hits.

I do wonder if fate manipulation forcing actions would fall under game's mind. A sword he equates his game's mind with also protects from fate manipulation, but regardless, if Ikki can ignore acasuality that makes people immune to fate I doubt that would matter much. But no, affecting several realities is potency, the same way affecting millions of minds is. The amount of control over the amount of land is one of the only ways of scaling fate manip besides plain statements of superiority.

He can teleport and use most of his magic on toughth. So if he can think that fast, he can do a lot of stuff that fast. None of his more haxy abilities, but stuff like teleportation, telekinesis and some other things still fit can be used. I was only saying that Han could teleport from SoL stuff (or use power null, as the case was there) if given enough distance.

Calculating stuff at FTL speeds does seem beyond her ability, but that isn't really the point. Han's brain isn't something that works like that of a human, so I really doubt something geared to use the gaps and lapse between human thinking would work on him. He can, for exemple, divide his sentience into several parts to keep track of multiple things at once. Han does have some things that don't require his consciousness, some abilities are passives or constant once activated regardless of his awerness, and the Map should still show Ikki regardless of Hanvs ability to feel him.

That s not how type 4 works. Type 4 is irregular, so you need proof for what would and wouldn't work. From what I understand Rakudai only really goes into the fate aspect of causuality, not time itself. Ergen characters have type 4 too, but they can be bound by fate but not by time and laws (sometimes). Does Rakudai ever show time not working at all? Or show desperados working by a different measure of time?

I'll assume Gaule is superior to planetary mindhax due to concept sheningans.

I do agree it s pretty dumb, though I'm pretty sure a lot tends to rely on the distance he can cross or the amount of times he can attack before he runs out of juice, so Ivm not sure if we can just handwave it away.

Anyways, from what I understand, Han can still point at Ikki (outstrech his arm at him to activate) to use spatial manip to divide him into pieces, yeah?

Also, would his spatial barrier (stretches the space around him, making attacks bend around him) still work?

I guess this fight would still be about who can hit first in the end, so it depends on weather Ikki can kill Han before Han range spams.
 
Meh, Ikki may even tell him that himself if it's ittou shura. As for Ittou Rasetsu he doesn't really have the time to info analyze.

Ok

Ok i guess since we agree. But it is range, not potency. The very reason HA Dio was downgraded because range is not potency. Several dimensions (unless it's higher dimensions) is just multiversal range. The potency is still lower than Ikki who can fate hax acausals.

I guess just relativistic speed or so. Considering reaction speed is always faster than movement speed. Stella Vermillio as a SoL could notice an MFTL+ move being used. It's pretty normal i guess.

She did approximately 10^27 calculations in a matter of seconds while on her deathbed from being sliced in half and losing too much blood. And "calculating at FTL", when did thoughts gain speed like that? It's like saying "i can think at 20m/s" xD. Hmm passive abilties should still work. And the map? That might be the only way Han has to avoid it, how does it work?

Type 4 acausals are beyond the "cause and effect" (causality as we use it in the wiki). Which includes time, fate, probability and precog (which doesn't have a profile cus he's not a fighter). All of these abilities fall under the "causation system". So yes even time is included.

Planetary mind hax? Nah, it's tens of millions to a absolute most a hundred million (cus he mind haxed a whole country and had tons of people around the world mind haxed at the same time, a casual feat). What does the mind hax do? Cus Ikki has rude resistance to mind hax via fighting completely unconscious.

Not on distance, it's more on time. So "can he beat his opponent in 1 minute?" in clashes and actual fight rather than "get to his opponent". I don't remember a single case where it has been a problem whether or not he can cross the distance. Besides pretty sure it would have been PIS even if it were.

Yeah i guess so.

Well Oikage i guess.

Yeah it would be that. Ikki's chances seem abnormally higher due to precog and rasetsu. His danger sense will trigger if Han goes for the spatial kill, which would result in Ittou Rasetsu blitz.
 
No, HA Dio was downgraded because hax and AP do not scale. Gaia wouldn't be 2-C by virtue of that, but it's still a testament to her fate's potency. But potency shouldn't matter to acausality the same way raw AP doesn't matter to non-corporeals, it circumvents it completely.

I mean, toughts do have a limit in how fast they can be processed... in fact I remember Ikki and the bone sword thug guy having the fight (after he learned a new sword style through skilling a girls tighs) where it's plain says that reaction time is limited and can't be trained. (It's nonsense, obviously, not a serious argument, the same way how Baki characters have a 0.5 second reaction time before their brain can process information is just dumb.)

Mindhax could make Ikki do what he wants, but it's more in-character to destroy his mind. Not a winning thing, obviously, but it would be there.

It might be my memory, that is true, but I do remember something like that. But if it never plays a big part then it would be waved off as PIS, yeah.


Now that I think about i... would magic power null (making the use of magic of any kind impossible) change things? Like, his stat amp partially relies on his magic, as is his sword, right? Han would not just put up and absolute magic null, since it affects him too, but that would give him an OOC way to win at least.
 
Even if you pull the more convoluted justification that "he warped the worlds to erase Valentine", it's still just 2-A range and not AP, as he isn't RW-ing the entirety of the multiverse. ~ From the downgrade thread. Hax can get AP if it's beyond 2-C. And this was for the potency of his hax (same as how Oracle has potency for his hax).

Yes but i mean not "FTL" ftl is "faster than 300'000'000 m/s". Your thoughts don't really move, the signals (reaction) has a travel time but even then it's purely seconds not "m/s". That was my point.

Fair enough.

-

Magic power null would work yes. It would nullfiy the stat amps and possibly even the sword. I guess since it's OOC it's not something that will really come into play.

Anyway i guess this ends the argument section (unless you have anything to add). I will vote Ikki via Ittou Rasetsu and danger sense telling him when he should use it as well as keeping him safe until he drops a killing blow.
 
Hax can get AP if it can be used to destroy. Existence Erasure can get you 2-c if you erase timeliness. Fate manipulation doesn't get you AP unless you use it to cause destruction.

I mean, saying that he can think faster than light can travel to him is more clear than me giving a 0.howevermanyzeroes1 second.

I mean, he does have aoe power null, but then that s no easier to use that spatial manip on pointing.

So Ikki fra
 
Yes, but doesn't change what i was saying "range is not potency". The fact that fate is harder to get tiers doesn't change the way potency applies.

True, but it's incorrect. Cus it depends on how far was the light and stuff. But i get your point.

Ikki: 2
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
Dumb skill levels? Perhaps I could put Han against Yagyu or one of the other sword saints then
Click to expand...
I imagine the pun is that Han's abilities are called skills by his system, and that they are very exploitable, while Ikki has the skill meme.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
I imagine the pun is that Han's abilities are called skills by his system, and that they are very exploitable, while Ikki has the skill meme.
Click to expand...
If only Ajimu weren't banned, some fun memetic matches could be done with that.
 
I'm pretty sure she s too OP for him still, but the author is just piling of abilities like it's candy.
 
Ikki FRA.

Now I have even more match ideas.
 
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