Massive Persona Overhaul: Part 1

This is Part 1 of a 2 part CRT created by both me (DarkGrath) and KnightOfSunlight. This will be largely overhauling massive aspects of the Persona verse as a whole, from Persona 3-5. This is extremely extensive, and as such has been separated into 2 parts, along with tabbers for all of the necessary information. Also, due to the fact that this is a massive overhaul (with even small, mostly inconsequential problems being mentioned) there will be a distinction made between Major and Minor parts of the revision. Considering the small and generally uncontroversial changes that Minor sections would have, Major sections should be focused on.

Due to formatting problems when converting this CRT to a forum post, please look through the CRT here and discuss it through commenting on this post.

>Still not scaled to the REAL Shin Megami Tensei

My disappointment is immeasurable.

Here we go, all aboard this wild ass ride.

I doubt it needs to be said, but as I spent a good bit of time working in these revisions, I agree.

Ive been following this for a while and I support :3

Happy lesbo cat noises

Yeah, i agree. The only real thing i may disagree is with Shadow Operatives being equal to SEES, seeing as characters like Akihiko are explicitly stronger than they were in P3 (but then again, this may be Akihiko only so idk)

CrimsonStarFallen said:

Yeah, i agree. The only real thing i may disagree is with Shadow Operatives being equal to SEES, seeing as characters like Akihiko are explicitly stronger than they were in P3 (but then again, this may be Akihiko only so idk)

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Admittedly, that part of the revisions is a bit more rough and open for change, because I haven't played Arena or Ultimax in a long while, and I was who made those parts.

Well, that's fair. Again, from what I've seen it seems to be implied that the Shadow Operatives are stronger due to being more experienced and knowledgeable, which doesn't necessarily translate to AP. Though Knight would know more about anything related to P4A than me.

It's really minor anyway, and as i said it may only apply to Akihiko. Otherwise this is perfect.

Yaldabaoth and the Holy Grail would be equal, as the Holy Grail is merely a part of Yaldabaoth's actual body

Are fingers equal in durability to the rest of a person's body?

Rest I don't really care about

It's more akin to saying your head only has 10-C durability because it's just a section of your body.

And regardless, Yaldabaoth is not 10 magnitudes above them even if he is more powerful in GoC form. That level of difference is utterly ridiculous.

Eh

I suppose that's fair. I still don't think the Holy Grail and Yaldabaoth should be separated, since the Holy Grail is still Yaldabaoth and there isn't really any quantifiable difference between the two (as in, we know Yaldabaoth has stronger attacks, but we don't know by how much). The two should probably be merged none the less.

I believe we should note that GoC is simply unquantifiably stronger than HG.

My only issue here is what comes from character tiering and matching and us saying "X is stronger than y from this game".

It's entirely fine in my mind to separate them if it leads to smoother revisions, but the difference in power would not be great. Maybe one Magnitude.

Dragonmasterxyz said:

I believe we should note that GoC is simply unquantifiably stronger than HG.

My only issue here is what comes from character tiering and matching and us saying "X is stronger than y from this game".

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I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean that you think there could be inconsistencies with how characters scale between games?

Basically seeing as cross scaling can be pretty finicky and as such we should be extremely careful with this part of this revision as this gives me painful flashbacks to Makoto vs Joker.

I see what you mean. I'd rather avoid dealing with the knitty gritty details of game cross-scaling as of now. That can wait.

Ahhh, right.

Yeah, okay, I'll be blunt. I don't want to go back to the "Who's the strongest protagonist?" days and all the debates that come along with it.

Let's just forget about that for now. Frankly, that's one of the main reasons I stopped getting involved with Persona for so long. What matters is the validity of the points in the CRT.

Everything else seems fine though.

I'll admit that I haven't really been too active when it comes to Persona revisions, but I agree with just about everything so far. The only thing that seems off to me is using Igor's statements about the Universe Arcana to justify Makoto's tier.

Thatsafloridathing said:

I'll admit that I haven't really been too active when it comes to Persona revisions, but I agree with just about everything so far. The only thing that seems off to me is using Igor's statements about the Universe Arcana to justify Makoto's tier.

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Yeah, I specify this in the scaling chain actually.

I mention in the footnote for the Persona 3 scaling chain that, frankly, this isn't a reliable tiering. But since the previous scaling doesn't seem indicated at all by the justification, there is astoundingly little to work with, and the Universe Arcana is major enough that it almost certainly needs to be included, the scaling for it is just... like, as good as we can get.

Like it says, even if Igor is somewhat unreliable, there's no reason for him to be so hopeful if the power Makoto unlocked was only at the level of Nyx's avatar, or just barely above it. I can see the magnitude being changed somewhat if it's needed, however.

In that case, I guess it makes a little more sense if there's a limited amount of sources for the justifaction.

Are there any other problems worth noting?

Way to jump the gun, guys. Could've at least given a heads-up on the Discord before posting.

I'll come back to this in a bit. Still have work to finish up before I dive into whatever this concerns.

I apologise if it was a bit sudden, but we have been preparing this for weeks now and we've contacted several people in advance about the topic. We haven't exactly been keeping this a secret, and it'd be unnecessary to contact absolutely everyone knowledgeable on Persona.

Still, fair enough. Just respond when you can.

I'd much rather have this discussed and decided on an open forum rather than fruitlessly debated in a discord server or in a message wall.

Publicity is the antithesis of stagnation, in this case.

This is gonna be beautiful.

You all better be prepared. I have over a thousand words of displeasure and counting.

Needless to say, I'm disappointed.

Can I guess Part 2 is gonna be hax, or more AP stuff?

Milly Rocking Bandit said:

Can I guess Part 2 is gonna be hax, or more AP stuff?

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That's gonna be my thread. And yeah, hax and powers.

I'll be more ready for that thread. Anyways, I shall wait for Solacis.

I have no issue with the first row. The logic is sound, even if I disagree slightly with the conclusions.

Multiple Characters & Makoto Yuki (Part 2)

The first real issue I have with this is the logic concerning the AP scaling to Durability of certain characters, such as Nyx Avatar and Yaldabaoth. The quote from the Durability page specifies: "Logically, characters capable of physically achieving a certain degree of energy output, must be able to at least withstand a comparable amount of damage, or their bodies would break apart from the strain and automatic counterforce, whenever they exert themselves."

What this actually means is that Durability cannot be lower than AP without in-universe explanation or strong logical evidence to the contrary. It says nothing about cases where a character's Durability is far higher than their AP, which is what is applied to Nyx Avatar and Yaldabaoth. Honestly DarkGrath, no offense, but how are you part of the audit group without understanding how this works?

In the same tab, as well as the one following, there's also the false assumption that Nyx Avatar was "nearly unaffected the entire fight", which is a blatantly wrong statement that has already been addressed in the original revisions. Nyx Avatar very clearly falls over in defeat at the end of the fight. Its lack of audible strain in its later dialogue can easily be attributed to Nyx Avatar being very obviously emotionless, not any lack of effort on its part. The fact that it is limp, and remains so even when talking and being pulled back (yes, pulled back) to the Moon, only further serves to show how genuinely defeated it was. The only thing it said after the battle was that the Fall could have been prevented if more people were like SEES. Defeating the Avatar was futile because the Fall was going to happen regardless of if it was beaten or not.

Thus, the first 2 tabs of the second row are entirely invalid.

Makoto Yuki (Part 3)

No issue.

Yaldabaoth (Part 2)

Next up, Yaldabaoth and Rays of Control.

With a fully-charged Rays of Control (that is, one with all arms functioning) is capable of one-shotting through Guard, which we've already accepted is capable of halving damage received. Eternal Light is capable of one-shotting if the PTs are unguarded, while full-charge RoC can one-shot even through that. Thus, it's a one-shot twice-over, which explains the 10 magnitudes, 5 for each level of one-shot. Even overlevelled, Rays of Control can one-shot through Guard.

And before bringing up the post-battle scene featuring Rays of Control, note that this was not a full-power RoC, as Divine Apex was not used beforehand. Even if you dismiss the lack of Divine Apex, do I have to remind you that we've already settled on Empowerment of Durability via willpower? In fact, that was specifically DarkGrath's assertion in the previous major revision. Considering the level of willpower going through the PTs at that point, in addition to Ren's feat of tanking multiple attacks from Caroline and Justine through his own Empowerment not an hour prior, is it really so hard to believe that the Thieves could stand up after taking a blow that would normally have one-shot them? I'm ignoring the points reliant on the AP-Durability equalization from previous tabs (which is honestly stupid).

Akechi (Part 1)

I'll relent on this one regarding Laevateinn, since I haven't been able to properly analyze that fight.

Lavenza (Part 2)

...My god, who worked on this again? Did any of you replay the game before doing this?

"The (pre-Qliphoth) Phantom Thieves have absolutely zero Low 2-C feats before facing off against the Holy Grail for the first time."

Absolutely FALSE. The Phantom Thieves had already fought the Holy Grail pre-Qliphoth World. Did the entirety of the Mementos Depths skip your minds entirely? Their first fight happened BEFORE Qliphoth World. BEFORE Ren got beaten up by Caroline and Justine. They damaged the Holy Grail significantly, multiple times in a single fight. After all, if they didn't, they wouldn't know about its Regenerationn because it wouldn't have had to heal. There's your Low 2-C feat.

Erebus (Part 1)

Sure, whatever. That makes sense.

Makoto Yuki (Part 4)

The time between is significant enough for a notable increase in AP. I don't mind either way, but their increase in strength should be represented on the scaling chain.

Izanami (Part 1)

Read.

The feat being used for Izanami is her feat of one-shotting Yu Narukami (with the World Arcana) with Oho Ikazuchi, which is a guaranteed one-shot regardless of level due to inflicting 999 damage no matter what.

Izanami (Part 2)

Again. Read.

Izanami and Izanami-no-Okami are already considered the same. The ONLY difference between them is that the latter has access to stronger attacks, that is, Oho Ikazuchi. And even THAT's debatable because the former is just an illusion cast by the latter. It's entirely possible that both can cast Oho Ikazuchi, just that Okami would be hiding behind her illusion.

Narukami (Part 1)

Myriad Truths CAN be 10 magnitudes higher than every other one of his regular attacks. In case you forgot, Reinhard and Longinus exist. There are NO feats that put Narukami above any of his teammates after attaining the World Arcana. The only thing he has is Myriad Truths, a very specific attack. There are no past feats of the World Arcana giving any boosts to AP, so assuming that he gets one just because he attained it is pure assumption.

Also, Ren has never had a boost to his regular AP post-Satanael outside of Sinful Shell, even when he has far more grounds to have one compared to Yu, due to being empowered by the world's cognition at the time.

SEES (Part 1)

Already addressed. It's specifically noted in Arena that the Operatives are notably stronger than they were back in high school. Not just more experienced, but flat-out stronger. I even low-balled it to just 1 magnitude because of the lack of details and feats, when in all honesty, it should be way higher, considering the amount of time that's passed since P3 is several times more than the time it took for them to jump from normal human to Low 2-C in the first place, and Akihiko specifically has been training non-stop since then.

Narukami (Part 2)

Sure. Makes sense.

Sho Minazuki (Part 1)

Adachi was only able to do that likely due to superior skill. In the story cutscene that followed, Adachi is beaten to a pulp and unable to fight back while Sho doesn't have a scratch and is about to finish him off before Yu jumps in to stop him.

So much of this could've been avoided if the two of you spent time actually double and triple-checking your facts, and the logic of the previous consensus.

See why the Revision Discord exists? See why the Velvet Room thread exists? It's to keep stuff like this from happening.

Once again, I'm reminded of the apparent fact that I'm the only Persona knowledgeable capable of checking his work.

And thus, it starts.

I'm gonna be at work today, so I'll respond when I can.

I've already stated why we didn't talk on the discord, and there's no need to insult every Persona knowledgable purely because you yourself disagree with two people's points. Furthermore, you assume we haven't checked our facts, errorneously.

We spent well over two weeks on this. We weren't exactly twiddling our thumbs during that time.

"What this actually means is that Durability cannot be lower than AP without in-universe explanation or strong logical evidence to the contrary. It says nothing about cases where a character's Durability is far higher than their AP, which is what is applied to Nyx Avatar and Yaldabaoth."

You don't seem to understand how this works. AP and Durability are always cross-scaled, unless an AP feat in question is done through means that explicitly would not carry over to the character's actual energy output (an example would be a character who performs an 8-B feat through telekinesis would not necessarily get that level of durability). It works based on Newton's laws, regarding equal and opposite reactions. If they can exert a certain amount of energy, then it stands that they can tank that energy and vice versa. This is why AP and Durability are almost always equal. If a character gets their tier by tanking a Low 2-C attack, they have both Low 2-C AP and Durability. This is just straight up how the wiki works.

"Thus, it's a one-shot twice-over, which explains the 10 magnitudes, 5 for each level of one-shot."

Two times a one shot =/= two one-shots. A one-shot varies between fictional verses, but in general is considered to be a 7.5x advantage. So this would not necessarily be the case.

Also, this is reliant entirely on assuming that we can use in-game values such as health and purely in-game mechanics such as guard as reliable statistics. Health is already extremely dubious, as that's almost 100% of the time considered a game mechanic with extremely rare exceptions (such as with Undertale using mechanics such as LOVE as in-game lore). But saying that guard automatically reduces damage to all attacks by half is completely and utterly pushing it. All that's actually shown is that they take the time to brace against the upcoming attack. While this may have an impact on gameplay, there is no reason why this would canonically reduce the AP of any attack they are hit by in half.

"The Phantom Thieves had already fought the Holy Grail pre-Qliphoth World."

Okay, sure, let's use that feat then. Then what exactly is the scaling here? You are claiming that they can decently harm the Holy Grail, but on your own scaling chain you put them around 9 magnitudes below the Holy Grail. Also, this is inconsistent with the fact that there is no noticable power-up even remotely hinted between beating Shido and reaching the Holy Grail, at best they seem to be powered up after being freed from the Velvet Room. So this isn't a particularly reliable feat.

"The feat being used for Izanami is her feat of one-shotting Yu Narukami (with the World Arcana) with Oho Ikazuchi, which is a guaranteed one-shot regardless of level due to inflicting 999 damage no matter what."

Again, this is using health and in-game damage values as an indication of how strong an attack is. If we used that logic, we'd also be saying that Armageddon can deal 9999 damage and therefore one-shot's everything ten times over. Or we'd also be saying that these kinds of "super ultra high damage number" attacks could one-shot absolutely anything that can't level up past 999 HP.

The standards for what are considered "mechanics" and "lore" in games are pretty strict, and you need a strong burden of proof to say that something explicitly game-mechanic related is a part of the lore. This is another example of something that just simply doesn't meet this at all.

I'll let Knight handle the other P4 and P4AU related one's, since he mostly handled those sections.

Quite simply, we did look over this. We did fact check this several times over. And bluntly, referring to yourself as "the only Persona knowledgable capable of checking his work" is simply blatantly egotistical. Don't assume that every other Persona supporter is suddenly incapable of doing things just because they contradict what you think.

I would also like to add one thing before I get BFR'd to work:

It is entirely possible to survive even a full power Rays of Control via DEF buffs, and using high natural DEF personas, along with DEF boosting skills, and guard. But even ignoring that, the point about it "one-shotting even through guard" is pointless when we remember guard halving damage is a game mechanic. There is no evidence whatsoever that Makoto and Yu holding up a sword in front of them, or Ren holding up his arm, actually halves the AP of an incoming attack.

Look, I don't like it either. But the fact is it always feels like I'm the only one keeping things consistent in this verse. If I weren't actively asking for help, I'd be doing everything myself because no one else seems to bother, like always. Regardless, you're right, this isn't the place for that.

To address your points:

I'm familiar with Newton's third law. It's you who doesn't understand it. Let me ask you this. Let's say a person tanks an explosion. Do we immediately assume he can punch as hard as the explosion he tanked? Of course not. Newton's third law only applies when the character's greatest AP feat yields something highrt than its greatest Durability feat. While a character's fist should be able to withstand the forces it's applying to another object, there's no logical reason for a character to ONLY be able to withstand as much as they can dish out. What you're doing is essentially limiting a character's durability to their max AP, when their durability feats far outstrip their strongest attack. There are martial artists IRL that can take blows heavier than what they can dish out themselves. The same principle applies.

To be completely honest, I hate scaling. And right now, as much as I honestly want to, I'm too tired with real life to bother arguing over this right now. So tell you what, you guys handle it. Update the scaling chain, update the existing profiles, make the missing profiles, do whatever you feel you have to. If I'm ever free again, I'll pop in and see if I have anything to dispute. At this point, no matter how much I love Persona, I can hardly bring myself to care about this. Good luck.

You're an admin on the Discord now. Do whatever.

Well... I wasn't expecting that response, admittedly.

I do want to be clear that I don't intend to disrespect your opinions or views on these matters. And I will take what you've said so far into account when constructing the scaling chain properly, even if I don't agree with all of it. You have made some decent points.

I'll work on constructing a proper scaling chain blog soon then.