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Big boy revisions for Xenoblade

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Thatsafloridathing

Thatsafloridathing

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Disclaimer: This OP is very old, poorly organized and inaccurate in some areas, look through the thread for further elaboration on the upgrades.

Major spoilers for Xenoblade Chronicles and Xenoblade Chronicles 2

this was a pain to make

So most of this stuff is from this thread https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2831160 and to sum things up, DDM had some stuff that supported the characters being at least 2-C. Now, without further ado, let's jump into this.


The Conduit/The Gate https://xenomira.wordpress.com/2018...ion-on-siren-included-in-the-siren-model-kit/ This page is a translation of the background info on Siren in the Siren Model Kit lore page. One line giving info on The Conduit/The Gate in particular says, " It had the function of a door that could connect multiple universes." So from that alone, The Conduit has to be at least 2-C for being able to merge multiple universes. The Conduit's function is also supported by the game which states in a cutscene, that their universe wasn't the only one, implying that the phase transition caused universes to merge together. https://youtu.be/4S5PU6rO29Q time stamp: 8:36 As for how it should scale to the characters, Klaus and Galea affect 2 universes after commencing the space-time transition.


This would probably affect these profiles: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Pyra_(Xenoblade) https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Malos_(Xenoblade) https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Rex_(Xenoblade) https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Alvis_(Xenoblade_Chronicles) https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Zanza https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Shulk https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Mechonis

Side note: Zanza and The Mechonis/Meyneth should have keys for their souls/true forms


New Hax

Zanza should have space-time manipulation due to merging with The Passage of Fate


Zanza, Shulk and Alvis should have spatial manipulation because "The Monado is a powerful energy blade that can manipulate the ether around it, and by doing so, change the material and immaterial shape of the world."


Shulk and Alvis should also have either conceptual manipulation or existance erasure due to erasing the concept of gods from the Xenoblade universe here https://youtu.be/rfUs8P8PcHw time stamp: 31:28


Zanza could possibly have Fate manipulation because he has control over The Passage of Fate

Alvis should have time stop and in turn, Shulk should have resistance to time stop because of this clip https://youtu.be/rfUs8P8PcHw time stamp: 30:26
 
I agree with having the Xeno-Gods being bumped up to 2-C as it doesn't contradict anything that I can see only retcon some details. Personally I am still iffy on 2-A but I can't deny that it is possible, getting a bit more information would help a lot. As for the new hax, I don't see anything wrong with it at the moment. I thought Zanza already had Fate Manipulation so hey! Good time to add that.
 
isn't this just Dimensional Travel
 
I will point out that absolutely nothing in the OP is remotely 2-A, but 2-C is pretty cut in paste. I was originally going to make my own thread when it was ready since I was going to explain where 2-A comes from as it comes from other in game sources and involves building pieces together. And I don't have enough time to link the scans at the moment, but I'll do it later and when I make my major thread.

First upgrade, the Conduit connecting universes when worded that way does sound like a range feat rather than a attack potency feat; however, the Conduit is capable of much more than that. We also know that in addition to merging or connecting universes, it has been shown to be able to give birth to universes and also has statements of destroying universes. Example is the "Birth of the Universe" video in both games back to back, is one event described as a Space-Time Transition that caused a big bang that effects at least two universes; both XB1 and XB2's. Klaus/Zanza/The Architect does indeed survive it from the epic center and evolves into a two Gods based on that event. So 2-C is legit based on that.

There's also the fact that Memory Space is described as being an entire universe by Alvis, and Shulk killing Zanza caused the destruction of both Memory Space and the World of the Bionis. So that could be another back up 2-C feat. As for the hax, Zanza would definitely have Omnipresent wide Fate Manipulation due to literally being "One with the Passage of Fate." But I'm not sure about Existence Erasure or Conceptual Manipulation. They already have Reality Warping which includes Space-Time Manipulation.

And just a heads up, I'll save 2-A stuff for later when I make my OP; but basically, the entity of Xenoblade's multiverse is undoubtedly 2-A structure. It comes from Architect stating "Infinite amount of Universes exist, side by side, but all unaware of one another. The Conduit is the gateway to these endless worlds." And other back ups include Fiora mentioning there exists "An Infinite number of possibilities." These prove the size of the multiverse, but effecting all of it is a different story. Alvis however does say, "The Monado has the power to effect the fabric of all existence, both material and immaterial." And Artifice Aion also has multiple statements about being powerful enough to "Destroy all existence". Two facts are that Aion is powered by the Conduit and is the only Artifice that can truly harness the "Limitless Power" of the Conduit, and the fact that Malos at this point in time is aware of what the Architect said about the Cosmology. But I'd rather save all of that for later as mentioned above.

Anyway, for now. 2-C does look legit till the bigger upgrades come, and I agree that Zanza and Meyneth need more keys for their true selves being Tier 2. Only their Bionis and Mechonis avatars are 5-B. And Fate Manipulation seems legit, but Conceptual manipulation and Existence Erasure seem to vague. And Space-Time Manipulation seems covered by Reality Warping.
 
I see nothing worthy of 2-C here.

The Conduit connecting the universes is nowhere near a feat of merging them. Acting as a doorway to multiple parallel worlds is just Dimensional Travel/Cross-Universal Portal Creation. This specific bit is common sense, so we don't need to dwell on it.

The stuff about destroying universes is all limited to a single universe/space-time from what I'm seeing. Even if Memory Space were universe-sized, unless it was stated to be a parallel spacetime, destroying it together with other universe-sized dimensions would only be above-baseline 3-A, similar to how we treat Bayonetta's Trinity of Realities.
 
Individual universes are infinite in size, and you did agree that at bare minimum it would be High 3-A. However, Word of God from what Numbersguy told me offsite clearly says that Shulk "Resets the Universe". Which is Low 2-C.

And actually, I did posts scans on the previous thread that the Universes are Space-Time Continuums. It's a Quantum Multiverse, not a Quilted Multiverse like Bayonetta or Dragon Ball. There's also the links in the video that the Conduit gave birth to the Universe by splitting the original universe into two parallel universes via a Space-Time transition.

Also, don't compare this to DMC, compare it to Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, or Xenogears/Xenosaga especially.
 
Albeit I am still iffy on Low 2-C, even assuming it is legit, Low 2-C is not equal to 2-C.

Memory Space is not equal to other parallel worlds. From what I'm seeing, it is a universe-sized pocket reality created from memories that has no evidence of being a parallel spacetime.
 
> There's also the links in the video that the Conduit gave birth to the Universe by splitting the original universe into two parallel universes via a Space-Time transition.

Scan of this?
 
Where is it stated that it split the universe into two parallel timelines? This seems made up. All we can assume from those scans is that the space-time of a single universe was erased and recreated - which is only Low 2-C.
 
It's simple, Xenoblade Chronicles 1 and Xenoblade Chronicles 2 exists in separate universes but same multiverse. Xenoblade Chronicles 2's multiverse was warped. It once had a normal Earth and similar real world structure, but ever since the event; it now looks more reminiscent of that of ancient mythologies and Xenoblade 1's universe. In which it consists of a flat ocean that's infinite in size, and the sun and moon cycle that now behaves differently of the Sun simply being blocked instead of a rotation.

Makes it clear Xenoblade 1's Universe simply never existed before the transition. But Klaus having his body split and half and both haves evolving into reality warping gods, and the universe they were in being warped shows it's a Multi-Universal transition.
 
...None of that is remotely 2-C. The scan about "space-time transition" is blatantly referring to space and time within the universe being resetted and reformed (this is the literal definition of the word)

The universe was destroyed and then recreated in the image of those gods. All of this is still only Low 2-C. Until there is a feat where multiple spacetimes are destroyed or created all at once, I don't see any 2-C feats in the verse.
 
The feat that happened was that the 1st Universe was having its Space-Time warped and transformed, and the 2nd Universe was literally being given birth to. The characters are blatantly Tier 2 is the part I cared about, and I was iffy on 2-C for anyone other than Alvis. But two Low 2-C feats happening at the same time in two different universes from one event does certainly sound like 2-C.

Plus I'm going to get to 2-A stuff later as there are indeed statements throughout the series of there existing an infinite number of universes. But that needs more time for another thread.
 
The feat that happened there was that the 1st Universe's space-time was destroyed - and then recreated, giving birth into the 2nd Universe. All Low 2-C. Resetting a universe isn't 2-C.

Also, just for the sake of completion, it is never stated that there are infinite universes. The quote you linked only talks about "endless worlds". "Endless" is only considered proof for 2-B here.
 
It destroyed 1 Universe, and then it gave birth to two of them actually. Xenoblade 1 and 2 both take place in different Space-Time Continuums both created using Quantum Mechanics. Actually, Countless would be 2-B or nearly endless. Literal endless would be 2-A. And he said Infinite and Endless in the same paragraph. Mario's multiverse for example is 2-B based on a statement of expanding endlessly meaning approaching infinite rather than actually reaching infinite. But Final Fantasy and Chrono Trigger's multiverse is 2-A. Fiora also said in another source There are infinite possibilities.

I will have to go to work, so I'll be inactive for 9 hours.
 
That isn't at all what is stated by your scans. All the scans say it destroyed the universe and then created a new one, not multiple of them.

Endless worlds is not considered 2-A. Case in point. We only ever consider 2-A if it's outright stated to be infinite.
 
> And he said Infinite and Endless in the same paragraph.

He didn't

> Fiora also said in another source There are infinite possibilities.

This is a 2-B quote. No different than Xenoverse/Heroes's multiple quotes on the same vein; there are infinite possibilities, but the amount of currently existing worlds is finite.
 
Hoo boi, I missed a lot. I haven't done the research for this topic as well as DDM has so I'll lay low for the parts I don't have anything to input on.
 
We've seen that and that's 2-B, not 2-A. We don't consider "endless" a 2-A statement due to the way it is generally used.
 
Destroyed the universe and then created a new one. That is what is said in Xenoblade 1, but Xenoblade 2 also elaborated that there's more than one universe. As the Architect is half of Klaus' body.

Endless if used in a literal context means without end (Implying infinite). And again, it depends on context. In Xenoverse, those statements are made by characters often known to use hyperboles here in there. And some context uses endless as a way of saying it approaches infinite rather than actually reaching infinite. But in Chrono Trigger Endless = Infinite. Bravely Default is also 2-A based on this. Alvis, the literal Omniscient creator of the multiverse, is also the Providence that predeterminately created "As many worlds as their are possibilities" hence infinite possibilities. FF XIII-2 has something similar as well as Everlasting's word on Infinite Possibilities. The Conduit is also similar to Zohar I might add. And it does more than just gateway stuff, it also manipulates quantum mechanics and gives Artifice Aion the power to "Destroy all existence".
 
Endless is 2-B. This has been established for quite awhile. I don't see anything that implies Xenoblade is actually different from other verses with the same context. A lot of what DDM is talking about doesn't have a direct scan yet so who knows, maybe more will be revealed and stuff will change, but for now this isn't a 2-C feat at all and we'll cross the other bridge when we get to it.
 
Connecting two universes isn't a 2-C feat. Making a doorway between two houses wouldn't be a 8-C feat either.
 
2-C doesn't come from the universal connecting statement in the OP (Which should be edited), it comes from the Space-Time Transition/Big Bang effecting at least two universes. Which is more obvious if you watch the two videos I linked back to back.
 
Wasn't the Space-Time Transition thing debunked a few posts back, too.
 
It wasn't debunked, it was simply argued against. There's a difference. Kepekley hasn't even played the game and that shows in this thread. The context is that the Universe in Xenoblade 2 was getting transformed/resetted where as a second Universe (The one Xenoblade 1 takes place in) was given birth to in another Space-Time Continuum from the same event.
 
Okay, but not playing the game doesn't mean anything when understanding the meaning of words put with other words unless the game actually changes the definition of it, which doesn't appear to be the case here given the current argument.

Simply repeating your belief does not make it any more concrete.
 
I know that, but saying "It was debunked" doesn't either. I know that since people can watch videos, but playing through both games is something often important to grasp a more elaborate understanding. And it's already a staple that both Xenoblade Chronicles 1 and Xenoblade Chronicles 2 take place in parallel universes and the same multiverse; which were both created from the same event of Klaus activating the Conduit. Elaborated by the fact that the Architect and Zanza are both two halves of the scientist Klaus who live on as gods of their own universes. And Architect being able to have awareness to other universes. The Architect here's Shulk's famous quote from the other universe during the final battle with Artifice Aion.
 
I mean. If something was debunked with nothing offered as to why that debunk is invalid then I take it as debunked.

And I disagree. You should know that complete and total knowledge on a series isn't needed to gauge the quality of a thread and its points. That's sort of the purpose of Discussion Mods and Admins being asked to threads, no? Based on the definition of the phrase, I agree with Kep. It isn't 2-C quite yet.
 
I didn't say having knowledge on the verse is needed, but having knowledge on the verse is more preferable in the long run than without. He still hasn't even argued against the very common sense. The point is, the feat is literally "Space-Time transforming the Universe that you're in, while simultaneously giving birth to a second universe outside the universe you're in."

Individually, those are Low 2-C feats, but performing 2 of those feats while across the "5-D" border that separates two universes sounds a lot more like 2-C.
 
True, but I don't see how this comes into the equation in this particular instance. The argument to be had is that they're the same universe with a different timeline, with the Space-Time Transition thing.
 
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