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The Dragonborn (Skyrim) Vs. Joker (Persona)

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ShockingPsychic

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Both Low 2-C. The Phantom Theif Vs. The Last Dovahkiin! Joker decides he needs to infiltrate Whiterun, but is seen by the Dragonborn.

The battle takes place in Whiterun. The guards can't interfere, nor can any other townsfolk. Speed =. Both in-character.

Endgame Joker Vs. Endgame Dragonborn. Joker can't use Satanael.

Both sides have all of the equipment they can obtain in game. Joker has all of his Personas (minus Satanael), items, weapons, etc.

Dragonborn has all shouts, weapons, armor, magic, items, etc.

Victory by death, no holds barred.

Dragonborn:

Joker:

Inconclusive: 2 (Solacis, Waria Kambang)
 
I mean Dragonborn just has a lot more diversity with shouts. He could summon a dragon, freeze Ren solid, blast him away with fus roh dah, etc. I vote Dragonborn.
 
In all seriousness, can the Dragonborn do anything that would get past the Omnipotent Orb?
 
Would Mehrunes Razor really be a Low 1-C artefact? My apologies if I'm mistaken, since I'm a bit rusty on the lore. But doesn't Mehrunes Razor only contain a practically inconsequential amount of power in comparison to Mehrunes Dagon? And even if it did have the same level of power as Mehrunes Dagon, that would be indicative that the Dragonborn needs an upgrade due to being capable of using it. And on top of all that, it has been shown in game to not work on certain beings who are nowhere near Low 1-C (such as Karstagg). I'm very highly doubtful that it can be considered Low 1-C in potency.
 
Faruel1998 said:
Then go with staff of Magnus and Auriel Shield!
Click to expand...
If the item had a passive effect, it would scale to Low 1-C. But its offensive power would scale to the Dovahkiin, so that part wouldn't bypass the Orb. With the Staff of Magnus, at best it's magic and health absorption would bypass the orb, not any other magic cast using it.
 
You should ask someone more experienced than me, and the thing that doesn't work on Karstaag is purely a game mechanic
 
Miraak's page mentions resistance to death manip due to being unaffected by Mehrune's Razor, same as Karstagg. Either it's not just game mechanics, or a CRT will need to be made to remove that from his profile. But quite clearly, this shows that Mehrunes Razor won't work on Joker. Joker has resistance to all forms of Insta-Kill depicted, and as shown through Miraak even a Low 2-C being having resistance to insta-kills is enough to bypass Mehrunes Razor. So no, Mehrunes Razor won't work on Ren.
 
With that in mind, I'd have to say that I'm giving a slight edge to Ren here, simply due to how the Omnipotent Orb ridiculously reduces the Dovahkiin's moveset and the fact that, in comparison, the Dovahkiin has no resistances whatsoever to:

1: Ren's Bless/Curse/Despair abilities (all of which would allow him to one-shot) 2: Ren's Forget ailment (which would allow him to remove all of the Dragonborn'e major abilities by making him forget how to use them, which should work on Shouts) 3: Ren's Statistic Amp/Reduction (which allows him to quite easy get a major AP/Durability advantage, assuming they are relatively equal in base).

Honestly, this nearly seems like a stomp for me, unless the Dovahkiin has something major that can get past the Omnipotent Orb.
 
DarkGrath said:
Would Mehrunes Razor really be a Low 1-C artefact? My apologies if I'm mistaken, since I'm a bit rusty on the lore. But doesn't Mehrunes Razor only contain a practically inconsequential amount of power in comparison to Mehrunes Dagon? And even if it did have the same level of power as Mehrunes Dagon, that would be indicative that the Dragonborn needs an upgrade due to being capable of using it. And on top of all that, it has been shown in game to not work on certain beings who are nowhere near Low 1-C (such as Karstagg). I'm very highly doubtful that it can be considered Low 1-C in potency.
Click to expand...
Daedric artifacts such as Mehrunes' Razor, Ring of Namira, Spellbreaker, etc. are an integral part of a Daedric Princes and are an extension of their divine selves. This is especially true for Mehrunes' Razor, a literal power source for Mehrunes Dagon that allow him to ascend from a mere Dremora Lord to become a Daedric Prince.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2735288?useskin=oasis

This, however, does not mean that the Mehrunes' Razor that we use in-game is a low 1-C artifact.
 
I see. Well, irregardless, Mehrunes Razor has been shown not to work on Low 2-C characters with resistance to insta-kills, so we shouldn't assume it would work on Ren.
 
DarkGrath said:
I see. Well, irregardless, Mehrunes Razor has been shown not to work on Low 2-C characters with resistance to insta-kills, so we shouldn't assume it would work on Ren.
Click to expand...
... What?

Low 2-C Characters resisting Low 1-C level Insta-Death Hax is an awesome Resistance feat for the Low 2-C, not an anti-feat for the Low 1-C. The only way it can be the other way around is if the verse explicitly says that the artifact doesn't work on the Low 2-C because of power or something.

So no, we should assume it works on Ren due to lack of feats on that scale.
 
Ah, that makes sense.

Even so, I'm still going to have to vote for Ren. Even if we assume that Mehrunes Razor would work on him, I highly doubt it would be the Dragonborn's first move. In comparison, Ren has various Curse/Bless skills that insta-kill, along with Soul Manip and ailments which can severely debilitate the Dragonborn, all of which he is known to use in character. Even if we assume that Mehrunes Razor would work, I'm almost certain Ren would use one of his insta-kill moves first.

They are currently listed as both being in-character, but in the event that Ren was the only one in-character and the Dragonborn was bloodlusted I think he would have a far greater chance of winning.
 
Modernmyrmidon said:
Couldn't Dragonborn summon a dragon? That might help.
Click to expand...
Remind me, that's done with a Shout, right? Akira has power null through the Forget ailment, which allows him to force a character to forget how to use any of their skills. Given that it's specifically done by temporarily wiping their memory, I'd imagine that it would stop the Dovahkiin from being able to use shouts. And even if he did summon a dragon, again... all the insta-kill stuff.
 
Remind me, that's done with a Shout, right? Akira has power null through the Forget ailment, which allows him to force a character to forget how to use any of their skills. Given that it's specifically done by temporarily wiping their memory, I'd imagine that it would stop the Dovahkiin from being able to use shouts. And even if he did summon a dragon, again... all the insta-kill stuff.

Staff of Magnus can also insta-kill Joker given that it can drain a low 1-C artifact in a couple of seconds. It also absorbs health. And the Dovahkiin's knowledge of the Thu'um is literally tied to his soul. This is the reason why you can instantly unlock a word of power after you absorb a dragon soul. So unless his Forget ailment can also target soul, then it won't work.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Souls#Dragon_Souls

The Dovahkiin have resistance toward stats reduction and Dragon Aspect (which amp stats) can counter it. He also has resistance toward soul and curse manipulation, how powerful is Joker's curse and soul manipulation?
 
Well, if it is tied to his soul, it's possible that the forget ailment won't be enough. However, Joker does have soul manip, so it's still entirely possible.

And like with Mehrunes Razor, I'm doubtful that the Dovahkiin would start by relying on the Staff of Magnus, while Joker in-character is fully capable of leading with his insta-kill moves.

If the Dovahkiin has resistance towards stat reduction, soul manip, and curse manip, then why aren't any of them listed on his profile? And Joker does also have bless based insta-kill abilities.
 
DarkGrath said:
Well, if it is tied to his soul, it's possible that the forget ailment won't be enough. However, Joker does have soul manip, so it's still entirely possible.

And like with Mehrunes Razor, I'm doubtful that the Dovahkiin would start by relying on the Staff of Magnus, while Joker in-character is fully capable of leading with his insta-kill moves.

If the Dovahkiin has resistance towards stat reduction, soul manip, and curse manip, then why aren't any of them listed on his profile? And Joker does also have bless based insta-kill abilities.
Click to expand...
I mean, he does have it though. You should read the Dovahkiin's profile once more.
 
Yes, my apologies. I'm a bit tired right now, so I didn't see where it said "resistance to" on his profile.

Hmm... well, bless skills would still work at insta-killing the Dovahkiin. And Ren does use them in character. Exactly how strong is the Dovahkiin's resistance to Soul Manip? That seems like the most important one.
 
DarkGrath said:
Yes, my apologies. I'm a bit tired right now, so I didn't see where it said "resistance to" on his profile.
Hmm... well, bless skills would still work at insta-killing the Dovahkiin. And Ren does use them in character. Exactly how strong is the Dovahkiin's resistance to Soul Manip? That seems like the most important one.
Click to expand...
dova has 1A soul resistance
 
What on earth...

So the Dovahkiin has Low 1-C artefacts and 1-A resistances, yet is only Low 2-C in tier?

This is bizarre
 
DarkGrath said:
What on earth...

So the Dovahkiin has Low 1-C artefacts and 1-A resistances, yet is only Low 2-C in tier?

This is bizarre
Click to expand...
Well, to be honest, i have my doubt about it. If everyone have 1-A soul, then how come spell such as soul trap can affect them? It doesn't make sense.
 
Yeah, that does seem a bit fishy to me.

And just... don't take me the wrong way on this. I fully respect Matt and all of the work he's put into the wiki thus far. But from experience, I must admit it seems he has some sliiight favouritism for TES. I think everyone has some level of favouritism for at least one franchise, but I digress. It's possible he was exaggerating the extent there.
 
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