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TSSDK WN Time/Causality/Fate-related Revision

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NeoSuperior

NeoSuperior

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This revision mainly deals with contents of the first half of the "Demon Lord's Gambit" arc of the Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ke Web Novel.


Relevant Quotes
Note: "Chloe O'Bell" = "Chloe Aubert". They are the same, just different translation choices, so don't mind that.

Hinata going to the Ingracia Freedom Guild HQ, making her first meeting with the kids:


She called out.
Just as Rimuru had described them. The five children... except the black haired Chloe O'Bell; she seems to be missing.
~ WN ch. 121​

ÒÇîYeah. I heard about you from Rimuru.
Misaki Kenya, Sekiguchi Ryota, Gale Gibson, Alise Rondo, right?
And one more, Chloe O'Bell... whom I don't see here.
Just as Rimuru had said.
My name is Sakiguchi Hinata.
You may have heard some bad things about me, but I am not here to endanger you.
I came to chat, but it seems we're out of time.
It would be great if I could get you to trust me...ÒÇì
~ WN ch. 121​
The kids can't remember Chloe:


ÒÇîI appreciate the sentiment, but we can't leave just yet.
Most importantly...where's the fifth―Chloe?ÒÇì
ÒÇîOnee-chan... who are you talking about?ÒÇì
ÒÇîWe don't know anyone by that name?ÒÇì
~ WN ch. 121​
Hinata confronting Yuuki about what he did and asking about Chloe:


ÒÇîYou bastard, not only manipulating me, but the children as well!
And where's the other girl?
Where's Chloe Aubert?
Did you erase the children's memories?ÒÇì
~ WN ch. 122​
Yuuki not being able to remember Chloe:


ÒÇîIt was unfortunate, raising bugs is so much hassle, and I even got a great pawn... And then......
And because you had your emotions "frozen" as you clung on to the despair of being abandoned by your mother!... The expression on your face was priceless. It truly is a pity. I completed the overly rational, ruthless Hinata with so much effort, and now all you are now is an ordinary person with a strong sense of justice.
By the way, who's Chloe Aubert?ÒÇì
~ WN ch. 122​
When Hinata's soul gets absorbed into Chloe and travels back in time:


I'm sorry. Everything is just like it was destined to be. Your soul will be warmed inside of me.
Eventually, the "Hero's egg" that your soul possesses will surely emerge.
―― Who are you?
I'm Chloe.
―― Chloe? The fifth child?
Yes. Due to the Hero's waking, people who could recognize me disappeared.
(TL NOTE: Chloe was Ret Gone from everyone memories.)
You'll assimilate into me, and will become a true Hero before long.
What born here is the Nameless Hero.
Everything is Pre-established harmony.
As for your defeat and also your death.
――That's a somehow irritating.
It's inevitable.
I recognized what it was, and so to get your soul, I leaped to the past.
――Are the things in the future decided too?
No, what is decided to that extend is unknown.
What I knowis this moment now, when the True Hero awakened, only to that extent.
At the time I flew into the past, the Hero whose existence overlaps disappeared and is untied from all limitations.

That is, even though it's an existence of the assimilated me and you, it can be said to be another person.
Even so, will you come together with me? No, I want you to come.
――I see. It's a thing that can be refused. But, it can't be refused, huh.
~ WN ch. 123​
From another TL NOTE: Gottfried Leibniz's theory of pre-established harmony (French: harmonie préétablie) is a philosophical theory about causation under which every "substance" only affects itself, but all the substances (both bodies and minds) in the world nevertheless seem to causally interact with each other because they have been programmed by God in advance to "harmonize" with each other.

Hinata explains why everyone forgot about Chloe (she doesn't know that Ruminas got an Ultimate Skill at this point):


ÒÇîRight, you are Hinata right now. How about Chloe?ÒÇì
ÒÇîChloe is asleep. When we fought we were able to truly waken.
My skills were integrated and power assimilated.
Though it took a while, we seem to have fixed all distortions.

You see, before I was summoned into this world, this body slept in Ruminas' care.
And then Yuuki went ahead and awoke it, causing there to be two bodies for poor Chloe, reducing her to an unrecognizable spirit.
Ruminas you yourself forgot the hero's name, didn't you?ÒÇì
~ WN ch. 124​
Chloe implies how utterly difficult it is for her to alter events as child Chloe, only being able to influence few events like acting much more calmly than usual with an in-character excuse to do so:


It's just probably....for one thing, I succeeded in taking a different action from last time.
Though, it's just a trivial action.
As a result, time has now begun to follow a different route from the future that I remembered.
What will happen in this world's future? I will witness it with my own eyes.
And, I wish to save this world.ÒÇì
~ WN ch. 125​
Chloe speculates about Rimuru's role in the changes of the current timeline (her claim that it might be because of him gaining an Ultimate Skill is likely wrong) and speculation about Rimuru possibly having survived in the previous timeline:


The existence released from the Law of the World, people who posses Ultimate Skills.
Ruminas in front of her.
Rimuru that Chloe loves.
And she realized that Rimuru's existence was necessary to rewrite destiny.
Perhaps, because Rimuru obtained an Ultimate Skill, he slipped out from the Law of the World, and so he might be the reason of the current miracle?

No, more than that.

In the last time, if by chance Rimuru survived, wouldn't he have awakened an Ultimate Skill?

Such a question appeared in her mind.
If Rimuru survived after his companions were killed and he was in despair and anger..........
By some means, he helped Chloe, so that she might to interfere the past?
~ WN ch. 125​
Chloe speculates about Yuuki having an Ultimate Skill (but as it later turns out, he doesn't have one yet):


Despite obtaining an Ultimate Skill, Yuuki's control, "The Order (Wish) of Three" is still effective. She guessed this is because Yuuki also has an Ultimate Skill. Chloe can't attack Yuuki. Therefore, even with the strongest ability, she can't attack Yuuki. Since his wish is to bring chaos to the world, it's necessary to defeat him someday.
~ WN ch. 125​
Children regained their lost memories about Chloe after Chloe timeleaped:


It seems Hinata had went to rescue the children in my stead.
It is a welcoming story.
ÒÇîSo, what happened to the children?ÒÇì
ÒÇîThey are wandering around Tempest sight-seeing. Kenya, though desperately wants to catch up to Chloe's strength.
They are all rather upset that Chloe left without saying anything.ÒÇì
~ WN ch. 128​
Rimuru stating that Ultimate Skill users could resist losing their memories about Chloe and the equipment that Rimuru gifted Hinata came along for the timeleap:


I am satisfied with Hinata's explanation.
However, I can sympathize with Chloe.
It must have been painful, not only being forgotten, but being the only one who's an adult.
As a hero, when the experience of the past awakened in her body, she would become an unrecognizable existence that would be swallowed by the shadow of the hero.
Only those who have reached the pinnacle of power—an ultimate skill—could recognize her existence.
She must have felt completely lost.
With the power from Hinata's soul, the journey to the past. How much struggle and how harsh the journey must have been.
ÒÇîRimuru, the copy of the Sacred armament that was given by you.
It was given to Chloe. It came along us to the past, protecting us.
The armor has helped greatly. Thank you.ÒÇì
~ WN ch. 128​
Rimuru also estimates that he could have survived in the previous timeline:


In order for the strongest hero to be born, she traveled through time, huh.
Moreover, the world is heading towards destruction, and I died in that timeline.
But, I wonder?
Certainly, if it was the initial fight with Hinata, defeat is guaranteed. There's no doubt.
However, I could have survived.
If that's the case......no, lets stop.
Conjectures on this topic would not help the current situation.
~ WN ch. 128​
An Ultimate Skill by itself isn't enough to make changes to the pre-established harmony, as unlike Rimuru, Leon appearently couldn't make any alterations:


When the hero attacked his facility, he had this strange unexplainable feeling he should avoid confrontation.
And so, he decided ――Even though he wouldn't say it―― to leave Shizu san in the care of the hero who came, and said he would withdraw.
When you think about it, it was easy to explain.

Although there's no way Leon could have known, this was all a pre-established harmony created by Chloe's ability.
~ WN ch. 131​


Conclusions
Rimuru and other Ultimate Skill holders like Ruminas seem to be able to remember Chloe during the time she disappeard. It's strange that Hinata could remember too, but that might be due to her being part of the hero too, or perhaps some of Rimuru's lingering Ultimate Skill-power was attached to the "holy armanent" that he gave to Hinata, or maybe Rimuru told her after the memories were already "wiped" from everyone, causing the information from Rimuru to not be removed from Hinata's memories.

Anyway, what is this? Resistance to Causality Manipulation? Resistance to Law Manipulation? Resistance to Fate Manipulation? 3-A/Low 2-C Resistance to Memory Manipulation? Acausality Type 4? I'd like to see some input on that.

What about Rimuru's ability to alter the "pre-established harmony" to a significant degree while other Ultimate Skill users don't appear to be able to do so? It's not Resistance to Law Manipulation, since Law Manipulation is only attributed to the possibility of being able to do this simply by having an Ultimate Skill, but as seen with Leon, that doesn't neccessarily enable anyone from resisting the "compelling force" that causes event to flow in the same way as previous timelines, so it has to be something different.

So what is this? Resistance to Causality Manipulation? Resistance to Fate Manipulation? Resistance to Time Manipulation? Acausality Type 4? I honestly don't know how to categorize these types of hax, so I hope someone more knowledgable about these haxes got an answer for it.

I'll add the appropiate suggestions to this OP after getting some feedback.

EDIT: The proposed change is Acausality Types 1 and 4 for Ultimate Skill users.
 
My brain is milly rocking harder than my username I'm so confused.

I... I honestly do not know. Fate, Memory, and Acasuality are all I can really seem to grasp.
 
I believe whover can keep thier memories should have Acausality Type 1.

Rimuru's case is perculiar and I would not mind Acausality Type 4, but I might need more evidence. Causality Manipulation could also being fine and I was making a a CRT about Cook being Causality Manipulation yestrday but my internet just crash; I was think about adding it Ultimate Skills Users resistances.
 
This is Type 1 Acausality, it protect from Temporal Causality but not against "pure causality" several people like Monika have this kind of Acausality
 
So Acausality Type 1 definitly? I am glad that something came out of it and I didn't just waste my time. So any Ultimate Skill user cannot be simply paradoxed anymore then, huh?

Elizhaa said:
I believe whover can keep thier memories should have Acausality Type 1.

Rimuru's case is perculiar and I would not mind Acausality Type 4, but I might need more evidence. Causality Manipulation could also being fine and I was making a a CRT about Cook being Causality Manipulation yestrday but my internet just crash; I was think about adding it Ultimate Skills Users resistances.
Click to expand...
How about this then?


Even acquiring Hero's Egg, properly speaking, was something that could only be born after Chloe received the energy flowing from Hinata's soul.
Even in that aspect, the present Chloe is strong when compared to past Chloe.
Because she went to the past together with Hinata's Will, Chloe didn't taste solitude. And under the tutoring of Hinata, an excellent teacher, she was able to learn all the skills that Hinata had known. Because of that the foundation was made......

――She awoke the Ultimate Skill『Space-Time King (Yog-Sothoth)』――

Thanks to this ability she was able to recall the future memory.
It's a thing that Chloe from previous iterations was not able to do.
Originally, Hinata's『Mathematician』and『Usurper』 were unified with 『Absolute Severance』and『Infinity Prison』and she acquired Ultimate Skill『Hope King (Sariel)』.
This time, she absorbed the energy from Hinata's Soul without a problem, so she could remain without being mixed, and Hinata's soul could be revived in pure form.
What it brought was an absolute power that rules over time and space.
It was the awakening of two abilities called Ultimate Skill『Space-Time King (Yog-Sothoth)』 and『Hope King (Sariel)』.
Chloe who awoke this ability and obtained an ability to memorize and repeat the time she spent on this moment again and again.
During combat, she was able to start over again after she saw the enemy's attack.
That absolute superiority Chloe had, made Hero Chloe becomes the strongest existence.
~ WN ch. 125​
That Hinata developed a Hero Egg thanks to Rimuru, alongside the fact that Rimuru gave Hinata the Sacret Armament and therefore influenced Chloe's "past", is important, because influencing Chloe's "past" as the Hero is even more difficult than influencing any random world events, no matter how influential:


The Chloe who flew to the past, her soul would be trained safely without any tremor.
Since the result is fixed, it is protected from anything until it reached the event.
It's just like the self defense of a cocoon that waits for the time of its emergence as a butterfly.
In the previous world, she needed to abide until the destined time when she developed into the Hero
Therefore, it was impossible to kill the past Yuuki to change the future.
Since Yuuki met with the child Chloe and said to take care of her was a "Confirmed Event", until then Yuuki couldn't die.
The rule that protected the Hero's body applied to all events that the child Chloe recognized.
It's the effect of the ability that is the pivot of "Hero Upbringing Program".
It's a compound effect of Unique Skill『Infinity Prison』and Unique Skill『Time Travel』.
Time has an absolute compelling force that keeps it following in a decided manner which can be referred to as Time Prison. That is how Chloe traveled through time.
Therefore.
Even if Chloe had the future memory, the things she could do were nearly none, as her own ability was restrained.
~ WN ch. 125​
 
Child Chloe can't die until she becomes the hero cause it's a fixed event, this loop also involves Rimuru dying and adult Chloe going back in time, rinse and repeat, Rimuru however due to having an Ultimate Skill was able to escape from the loop, which leads to stuff like Chloe getting Space-Time King (Yog-Sothoth) which the previous Chloe's didn't have which allows her to remember what happened in the future after she goes back to the past.

This was just a timeloop caused by Chloe going back in time, which got broken by Rimuru getting an ultimate skill, nothing to do with manipulating causality here, think it's just type 1 acausality.
 
Though Rimuru being released from the law of the world due to being an ultimate skill user is interesting, it might imply he is indeed operating on a different system of causality cause it's said that is what's necessary to rewrite destiny, in otherwords to change the fate/fixed event of Yuuki destroying the world like previously.

It's not the past that's being changed due to Rimuru becoming an ultimate skill user so much as there is a fixed event that happens in the future ie Rimuru dying, world going to crap, but as an ultimate skill user, Rimuru isn't bound by this.

Acausality type 4 looks reasonable now that i think about it.
 
But the example of Leon, who got an Ultimate Skill too at the time, was still affected by the compelling force preventing him from meeting Chloe at that point.

Yet Rimuru was able to greatly influence the events of the past via causing Hinata to gain Hero Egg (Hinata herself doesn't have an Ultimate Skill that that point) and also giving her the Spirit Armament, which Chloe did not possess in previous timelines.

How would you explain this obvious discrepancy between Rimuru and Leon? It's implied several times that Rimuru from the previous timeline perhaps survived and did something in the background to affect the current timeline (both Chloe and Rimuru speculate that and Chloe gained a "Cthulu series" Ultimate Skill, which otherwise only appear under the influence of Ciel).

EDIT: This was toward your first reply, since I didn't see your follow-up post.
 
Even with that there would at least be some differences in "potency" though. Not sure how you could express that for Acausality Type 4 though.
 
I think we probably have to take Leon being affected by Chloe's ability as an inconsistency, i mean ultimate skill users are said to be released from the laws of the world, it isn't something specific to Rimuru, so he shouldn't have been affected in the first place.

Fuse probably wrote himself into a corner with this time travel shenanigans.
 
Ultimate Skill being the reason for much of that stuff seems to be mostly speculation though. Perhaps quantity or potency might have a role too.

Or maybe you need to have an Ultimate Skill of both the virtue series and the Sin series or a completely diffent series for making the difference. Or maybe it's even a "True Dragon" Ultimate Skill that's neccessary.

I remember that people had been saying that the 4 True Dragons represent the "pillars" of the basic Laws of the world. Veldanava - Veldora are Order and Chaos, or perhaps Creation and Destruction (fits their behaviour). While Velzard and Velgrynd are a different axis that span the energy states of low energy ("cold") and high energy ("hot").

I mean it's not the first mistake that Chloe makes. She assumed that Yuuki had a Ultimate Skill too, which turned out to be wrong. Yuuki only got it during his encounter with Leon.

Though I guess it's rather speculative.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
Actually, Type 4 also looks pretty interesting from CP's points, tbh.
Click to expand...
I agree as well. I am pretty sure Type 1 doesn't stop from time being in the loop of destiny, if it was just just Type 1 nothing would have changes. Pokemons Acausality Type 4 was rejected to Type 1 because they can still by affected abilties like temporal loops.
 
Well, in his final key he got it.

Also there are Ultimate Skill users who died in the previous timeline, but live in the new one, but there are no confirmed cases of the opposite yet, though in the scenario of Ultimate Skill users killing other Ultimate Skill users, in the first place, that doesn't really matter.
 
Every ultimate skill user should have type 1 by virtue of being able to remember Chloe, type 4 would come from basically being able to escape a temporal loop.
 
Oh right, considering that within the duration of the timeloop plenty of people were transmigrated, summoned or reincarnated from Earth, the scale of the loop might be multiversal too. Or do we assume that the "reset" bodies and souls are "stuck in limbo" for upto centuries?
 
IIRC Ruminas in previous timeline didnt have US so i think every US should have it, and for Leon case i think the loop never affect him as he never meet Chloe in every other timeline except when he still a kid, also he never meet Chloe because Yuuki summon Chloe to the future
 
Leon pointed out that "something was telling him not to meet the Hero" and the narration (or Rimuru, not sure which) explained that "Leon never knew that it was the Pre-Established Harmony at work!"

The passage is among the quotes in the OP. The last quote.
 
Well, it seems so, i really have to re read WN, i never knew if Fuse could make a mistake like this
 
Though perhaps it wasn't really "forcing" him unlike those without US, instead just "suggesting" him. Basically he, unlike others, COULD have ignored it, but didn't choose to. Or so patch-up explanation goes. I mean all others don't even talk about a "strange feeling" but rather just get swept up in the attacks without even suspecting anything - and it's also said that things pertaining to Hero Chloe directly have a much stronger effect than other events, so it might just be combination for various factors.
 
Also should US user get Resistance to precog? Because Hinata mathematician is basically a precog
 
GLHF22 said:
Also should US user get Resistance to precog? Because Hinata mathematician is basically a precog
Click to expand...
I pretty sure it made her smarter and gave her this ability: [Mathematicia] - the ability to cast spells without chanting [ch66]. It would also be better to discuss in another thread like the discussion thread as it otherwise will cause derailing
 
So, I guess Acausality Type 1 and 4 is all right then for Ultimate Skills Users.
 
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