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I'm going to hate myself for this (Goku vs Joker) (Grace)

KnightOfSunlight

KnightOfSunlight

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What a wonderful topic to start my time on this wiki with (I'm sorry in advance for anything that goes down)

Speed is equalized, fight takes place in Mementos, Ki is unequalized due to immense differences between it and any Persona element (meaning Joker cannot resist, reflect, negate, or absorb Ki based attacks)

Other than that, standard battle assumptions apply

"This isn't even my final form!": 0

"Show me your true form!": 8 (KageSakaDark, Solacis, Schnee One, Edwellken, lonliosite, DaBigP, Thatsafloridathing, Jimboydejuan12)
 
If this turns into too much of a stomp for either side I'm perfectly fine with limiting one to make it more evenly matched
 
What would Ki attacks fall under in equalization? If anything?

Besides that, anything physical or elemental will be repelled with the right persona usage.
 
That was one of the things I was worried about. If it isn't too much, we could limit Joker to only Physcial Resist Personas rather than his outright immune and reflect ones.

And I believe Ki would fall under almighty? Possibly into different elements depending on how it is used (Trunks' burning attack, for example).
 
Ki seems to fall under a bunch of different Persona elements.

From the small descriptions the Megami Tensei wiki is giving, Ki is so multi-purpose that it has aspects of Almighty, Bless, Miracle, Strike (Duh), and Force Skills at the very least. So. Ehhh.
 
So the issues are finding out what Persona element Ki is, and making sure Joker doesn't just outright immune everything thrown at him.

For the sake of balance, maybe assume Ki has some of the mechanics of Almighty (can't be negated fully, can't be absorbed, cannot be immune to) but is technically physcial? As in, physical immune Personas will merely resist the damage but not outright negate it.

Or would that be too complex?
 
It isn't about the immunity ones but rather the repels, if Ki is almighty then that's fine but if it was anything else it would just be reflected back.
 
Personally I'd consider Ki to be a composite of a bunch of elements (Primarily Almighty as it's the closest equivalent but not 100%) or not equalize Ki at all and so Ren's ability to just lolnope/reflect his attacks wouldn't work at all.
 
Akreious said:
Personally I'd consider Ki to be a composite of a bunch of elements (Primarily Almighty as it's the closest equivalent but not 100%) or not equalize Ki at all and so Ren's ability to just lolnope/reflect his attacks wouldn't work at all.
Click to expand...
Well, it will still work for punches and kicks, just not anything else. With or without equalization.
 
Alright, so Ki is unequalized due to extreme difference from any comparable element. Got it. Joker cannot resist, reflect, negate, or absorb Ki based attacks, but can still resist, reflect, negate and absorb everything else.
 
Since there's no comparable element, and the closest element we can find is Almighty, we are considering it as similar in function
 
That's not how it works at all. I'm more of a SMT person, but considering Persona is more or less a what-if of SMT with the same battle system, it should be worth noting it is perfectly possible for attacks and damage to lack elements. They are not the same thing as almighty.
 
So slapping a "Almighty" classification on ki doesn't make sense unless there's other evidence behind what ki can do that hasn't been shown.
 
Yobo Blue said:
Ki has no reason to be Almighty. Almight is Holy Manipulation among other things.
Click to expand...
Then what is Bless here for

Let's just say Ki isn't covered so the debate can continue.
 
Almighty is any attack with inherent Resistance Negation, at this point. It's not Holy Manipulation, that's Light and Bless skills. Ki attacks just have no element, since Ki is effectively the same thing as Persona's SP, which are the fuel for their spells, so Omnipotent Orb would blanket nullify Ki if it were in use.

Regardless, Goku gets mindhaxxed into oblivion.
 
Almighty can't be Holy Manipulation, as Bless is exactly that. It isn't Light Manipulation, as Bless is also that.

The problem with almighty is that it only has one specific trait, that being its ability to ignore defense. Everything past that is just speculation.

It's a strange thing, because the only things we actually know about almighty is that it negates resistance, and that it sounds like divine intervention (Almighty being similar to how most Gods are referred to in our world). Outside of that, it's just an attack involving energy that cannot be resisted like normal attacks, barring certain exceptions.
 
Like I said, I'm mostly running on my SMT knowledge, so take anything I say that doesn't make sense with a grain of salt.
 
Goku practically has no resistances to any meaningful hax besides time stop and EE. Meanwhile, Joker has hax for days, can nullify physical attacks and heal up any damage to himself with Diarahan.
 
Voting Joker. He can survive one shots with enduring soul, mind status, attack reflects, heal. He has far too many options to win and therefore has this in the bag.
 
Persona Almighty is the same as SMT Almighty, and I'm fairly certain that ki should be equalized to phys.

Either way, Ren via having actual hax as well as far better versatility.
 
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