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Ok with the tiers fixed we can finally get into the hax. Note that some of this stuff will be coming from the original Rakudai Kishi no Cavalry wikia as they are the only ones who have information about the volumes that are yet to be translated (this will mostly be regarding the Desperados abilities). I've checked some of the information they have up to volume 9 (which i personally have read) and the information seems to be accurate so I believe the wiki is a reliable source since i cannot find any fault in the info they provide. Starting the list from the bottom and up everything is fine (hax wise) up until Yuudai Moroboshi. Let us start then shall we?

  • Stella Vermillio should have:
    • Immortality type 3 and Regenerationn (At least Mid-Low, likely High-Low, could normally fight and heal after taking her own hit head on and suffering severe blood loss and organ damage) however only when using Dragon's Spirit.
    • Heat Manipulation, this is a minor thing as she can not only just manipulate fire but also heat as when her body became so hot it was nigh impossible to even get near her. Even Ikki had to use a hit and run tactic using speed to get in and out, otherwise he would get incinerated
    • Fear Manipulation. During her fight with Ikki in the finals, even though Ikki had plenty of openings to strike Stella, he could not do so due to the fear he was experiencing as soon as he got close.
  • Ikki Kurogane should have:
    • Passive Perception Manipulation, Pseudo-Invisibility, and lack of Presence. Trackless Step makes it so that he cannot be detected when he's moving. Although the original concept was when he was attacking or fighting, during the SSSAF Arc, he was capable of using this to walk through a crowd that was looking for him to get an interview completely unnoticed when other people used forms of Invisibility to get past the same crowd.
    • Fear Manipulation. Similarly to Stella, Ikki gave the same effects on Yuudai Moroboshi in their first fight in the tournament. Even though Yuudai Moroboshi was seemingly superior to Ikki, as he himself stated "It felt as if i was stepping on the tail of a beast whenever i tried to attack him". This "ability" of Ikki's literally caused Moroboshi to lose the fight.
    • Clairvoyance and Information Analysis. Ikki's ability is capable of instantly analyzing an opponents abilities and physical traits such as when he learned of Kurado Kurashiki's reflexes, learn the secret technique of Ayase Ayatsuji's father just by watching Ayase fight (even though Ayase never performed and didn't know how to perform that techinique, she had never even mentioned the technique or shown what it looked like).
    • Precognition. Ikki's precognition does not only extend to simple body movements, but he can actually feel when something is not right (a sixth sense if you would call it, which by our powers would be closest to precog). Such as when even simply looking at Amane Shinomiya with 0 knowledge on the boy he was feeling odd, like Amane was not normal and more dangerous than he looked.
    • Attack Reflection using Madoka. Madoka is a secret sword that gives Ikki the ability to take on an attack and reflect it back with equal power. The ability does not impact Ikki in anyway nor does it rely on his strength as shown when he could fully reflect Stella's hits when in Dragon Spirit mode. This is due to the fact that it relies on phyical and rotating motion.
    • Instinctive Reaction. Ikki has shown the ability to move based on instinct alone on multiple ocasions like versus Edelweiss, Stella and even Moroboshi.
    • Self-Biological Manipulation. Ikki could use Edelweiss' style to restart his own heart after Amane Shinomiya made it stop beating.
    • Techinique Mimicry and Reactive Evolution. Can effortlessly copy sword techniques and even improve them to be better or suit his own style. He has shown this with countless abilities.
    • Enhanced Senses. He already has this in the form of vision and hearing, but it should be to all senses.
    • Durability Negation with Dokuga-no-tachi. His slash can send a shockwave inside the body which will completely bypass any armor and deal internal damage. Even capable of causing incapacitation due to the shock or by making parts of the body limp and unable to use.
    • Energy Dispersio. By taking hits in a certain position Ikki is capable of tanking hits much greater than his strength or durability would allow, because he can completely channel the energy into the ground.
  • Edelweiss should have Death Manipulation and Fate Manipulation using her own special ability which is to form a contract. If said contract is broken it will bring about absolute death.
That's it for the abilities specific to one person. Now onto the Desperados and their abilities. This is a really importat part so i'll go into details and divide this in certain parts.

First, Context: Desperado (Ú¡öõ║║, lit. Demonic Person) is a term referring to a certain group of Blazers, who have shattered the very chains of fate itself.

Every human being born has a destiny. Some people have greater roles than others, and this leads to those with great fates being stronger than those with lesser ones. Desperados are those who exist outside of this border.


Second, Now on to the powers this grants:

  • Acausality (Type 4). So the idea of a Desperado is (from what i understand), beings who don't exist by the normal idea of fate or causality, instead they exist by different laws. At first i was thinking maybe it could have been Resistance or Immunity to Fate Manipulation since they broke Fate, so they don't have to abide by their own fate anymore/can just disregard anything their fate tells them, but there are several things down below that lead me to believe that is not the case and it's more Acausality. Type 4, because none of the other types fit the description as well as this one.
  • Fate Manipulation. This is 1 of the reasons i was lead to believe it's doesn't have to do with literally breaking their own chains of fate. They can manipulate their own fate and the fate of the world around them. (They can also manipulate the fate of others but i'll explain below).

    Only after reaching their "Awakening" (Brute Soul), are people capable of elevating their magic power and thus gain greater power than those with the great destinies. This small group, who exist outside of the boundary of fate are called Desperados. They are beings who exist above other humans, their existence being at the boundary between human and demon.

    As Desperados are beings that have broken through fate, they are capable of influencing fate.


    So basically Desperados can manipulate their own fate in different ways and their existence is "different". So it couldn't be that they completely nullify fate itself, it's just that their existence works by different laws of fate and causality.
  • Empowerment and Statistics Amplification.

    As shown in Ikki's fight versus Stella. Ikki (An F-Rank with an F-Rank mana capacity criteria), was capable of increasing his own mana capacity. All Desperados can do this and every desperado possesses magic immensly above even A-Rank blazers (who possess magic about 30 times greater than normal blazers)
  • Aura.

    They can exert an aura which can influence the world around them

    Pretty simple and direct. Just an aura, the capabilities of this aura i'll explain below.
  • Passive Willpower Manipulation, Paralysis Inducement and Fear Manipulation.

    They can exert an aura which can influence the world around them, allowing them to for example completely immobilize other Blazers with their presence alone

    Ikki was once capable of making high rank blazers (non desperados) unwilling to continue fighting. According to the wiki all desperados can completely immobilize other non-desperado blazers through presence or intimidation alone.
  • Death Manipulation

    They can exert an aura which can influence the world around them, allowing them to for example completely immobilize other Blazers with their presence alone or even kill them with their will.

    Basic Death Manipulation, could possibly be also acomplished by Fate Manipulation.
  • More proof that it is Acausality instead of Fate Manip resistance/immunity.

    Desperados also seem to be immune to Nameless Glory, because they exist outside of fate.

    Nameless Glory is Amane Shinomiya's ability which allows him to control fate, probability and causality (either by manipulating or ignoring it). Being immune to said ability furthermore proves that it's not that they ignore the chains of fate, they are acasual and exist by different rules.
  • And lastly Transformation and Fusionism through Execssive Awakening. There is a lot of description on Excessive Awakening but put simply. It's a more advanced form of normal Awakening Desperados experience. They become one with their device (Fusionism) and they transform into a more wild/demonic looking individual (Transformation). They are also empowered even further in all their physical and magical stats and even their abilities are improved.
Lastly, the people who should gain the Desperado abilities (the Desperados are):

 
Well first you need to provide evidence about literally everything you posted.

But at face value the Stella once are fine.

Ikki are fine except that's not clairvoyance just information analysis, and it's not precog just enhanced senses.

Edelweiss is just Death Manipulation, not fate.

By the description of Desperado that's just resistance to fate manip, not Acasualty type 4. The other abilities are fine except fate manip.
 
As i said in the OP, that is impossible. I linked to everything regarding the desperados. As for the individual hax. You can just check this. https://www.dropbox.com/s/5fpcxe5i3...o Eiyuutan - Volume 09 (page 90-212).pdf?dl=0

It's the fight between Ikki and Stella, there is a lot of context you can find there.

Most of Ikki's stuff come from his abilities which you can already find on the profiles with description and stuff. Ok im fine with just info analysis, as for Precog, last time i discussed that, the 6th sense is Precog by our standards.

Ok that seems fine.

You sure you read all of the desperado stuff? I already explaind, why it's not resistance to fate and it's acausality instead.
 
Well I don't know how you expect anyone to believe anything that's written there if there is no evidence to back it up, and if the novels aren't translated then this can wait till the they are and you can provide the scans then to back up your claims.

I don't have time to read a 90 page chapter, you can just take screenshots of the relevant parts and post them.

That's just enhanced senses.

Ok.

It's just resistance to fate manip there was nothing that implies that they have Acausality.
 
There are members from the original Rakudai Wiki which have read the untranslated volumes. And as i already explained the wiki is reliable as i have checked myself and made sure that they don't have wrong information on stuff i know. Everything about the desperados comes from the wiki and not from myself so im not expecting anyone to believe me on the desperados, im expecting people to believe the people who know japanese and have already read the volumes in japanese.

But as i said most of Ikki's stuff is already on the profiles in the notable attacks section.

Ok i'll leave it to the other staff members to decide on this then.

They don't resist fate "they manipulate fate" and their existence is different from that of normal people. Through this trait they also resist causality, fate and precog (probability too). And as i said they have a different kind of existence rather than just resist the normal one. It's made painfully clear from their capabilities and resistances that it's not resistance to fate, but rather just a different existence that is not bound by the normal flow of fate or causality, instead abiding by different rules.
 
That maybe be true but if you fail to provide any evidence for that than there is no reason to believe anything that is there.

Ok.

Ok.

That's not what the definition you provided said.

"First, Context: Desperado (Ú¡öõ║║, lit. Demonic Person) is a term referring to a certain group of Blazers, who have shattered the very chains of fate itself.

Every human being born has a destiny. Some people have greater roles than others, and this leads to those with great fates being stronger than those with lesser ones. Desperados are those who exist outside of this border."


If you have any scans to provide that would give more context to that it would be helpful.
 
  • Fate Manipulation. This is 1 of the reasons i was lead to believe it's doesn't have to do with literally breaking their own chains of fate. They can manipulate their own fate and the fate of the world around them. (They can also manipulate the fate of others but i'll explain below).

    Only after reaching their "Awakening" (Brute Soul), are people capable of elevating their magic power and thus gain greater power than those with the great destinies. This small group, who exist outside of the boundary of fate are called Desperados. They are beings who exist above other humans, their existence being at the boundary between human and demon.

    As Desperados are beings that have broken through fate, they are capable of influencing fate.


    So basically Desperados can manipulate their own fate in different ways and their existence is "different". So it couldn't be that they completely nullify fate itself, it's just that their existence works by different laws of fate and causality.
So they "break free of fate" but are still manipulated by their own fate? No, it's not resistance to fate.


  • More proof that it is Acausality instead of Fate Manip resistance/immunity.

    Desperados also seem to be immune to Nameless Glory, because they exist outside of fate.

    Nameless Glory is Amane Shinomiya's ability which allows him to control fate, probability and causality (either by manipulating or ignoring it). Being immune to said ability furthermore proves that it's not that they ignore the chains of fate, they are acasual and exist by different rules.
Free of fate but still somehow negate precog, causality and probability as well? No, it's just acausality.

That on top of the already mentioned:

Desperados are those who exist outside of this border.

They are beings who exist above other humans, their existence being at the boundary between human and demon.


And you get an almost exact definition of Acausality type 4. There are many things which contradict Resistance (which in verse would be immunity) to Fate and many things which support Type 4 Acausality
 
Resistance to fate doesn't give you resistance to causality, precog and probability. So Resistance to fate is not correct.

If they broke free of fate why do they still have fate?

If they don't have fate, why do they still manipulate it?

While acausality answers all those questions. There are too many contradictions. In verse immunity to fate people wouldn't have to abide by different rules of fate, wouldn't be able to manipulate their fate, nor would they resist causality, precog and probability by virtue of their immunity to fate. Not by our standards.
 
Nowhere in anything you have quoted did anything imply that they resist causality, precog, probability and that they manipulate fate.
 
I know the Desperado part is going to be the most discussed moment here, as the rest doesn't have all that much to talk about.
 
You can ask the people who commented in the last thread to comment here as well.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I am neutral. Don't know the verse myself.
Could you check if the things (especially on the Desperado part) look logical though? Especially on the difference between Acausality Type 4 and Immunity to Fate Manipulation.

The rest are just basic stuff the series has.
 
Regarding information from fan wikis:

Reliable or not, as someone who tries to change things on this wiki you should always be capable of providing scans for the claims you make. This is ESPECIALLY important when it comes to JP only stuff. We dont want a repition of Demonbane.

Another problem i have is the argument you use to vouch for the legitimacy of said fan wiki. Sure, english stuff is reliable, i trust your judgement on this. But JP only information, fan translated by fans? How many people do you think can proof read those pages? Compared to the, dunno how many english readers existing for said verse. This can go from simple mistranslations to suptle wank attempts by using the highest possible defintion, even if correctly translated, by ignoring context and/or using different translations for single world (Looking at you One Punch Man and "hoshi"), to full blown wank. Because how many people can actually refute it?
 
Well yes that's why im not taking random words and applying infinity onto them.

Personally i reached Ikki Kurogane's Desperado awakening, and the fate stuff it's not just made up. I am sure it regards either Immunity to Fate Manip or Acausality type 4. Here is a top tier Knight commenting on Ikki's awakening (Volume 9 Rakudai):

"I… I don't know..! I've never seen this situation before!" But, it was a reasonable reaction. It was not possible for magic to just increase. Magic is a power that changes the world beyond reason. It is the power of fate itself guided by the wielder's own will. Which is why the amount given to each person was determined upon birth. The fate of each person was decided long before they came into the world.

There is also more context i could give on the desperados, when Ikki reached awakening. The rest of the proof i gave was just simple stuff that you can't mistake no matter the language as im not using the wording to give them the hax, im using the general idea. Example:

Amane's hax didn't work on the desperados.

I don't think that there is much mistake that can happen there. Amane tried his hax, it either worked or it didn't, the fans may be wanking, but they can't just outright lie.

Most of these cases im using are cases with only 2 possible options and not focused on the words used, but rather the general scenario. That's why i was thinking it is reliable here. Anyway currently i believe Desperados are just:

Acasual type 4 (because not only do they HAVE fate and can manipulate said fate which resistance would negate, but by this virtue they also resist causality, precog and probability which is basically type 4)

And fate manip (which negates the possibility of fate manip resistance/immunity).
 
Have you asked all of the contributors to the previous thread, particularly the staff members, to comment here?
 
It would help if you ask the rest as well.
 
Or at least the staff members.
 
I think you misunderstood me. Im not claiming that you are doing it. Im saying that i dont particulary trust fan wikis when it comes to JP (Or any other language) only stuff.

Your word alone is not enough, sure, the information they covered from translated chapter is most definitly correct, if they werent it would be no big deal because every user who readed the series up to that point can correct wrong information. But you simply cant use the legitimacy in one regard to make them legitime in another. If you really want to get those additions done, then at least get sources/scans for it.
 
I can provide proof from the light novel for everything up to Aura part of the Desperados. We could focus on accepting everything up until then and then decide then whether from Aura and below are ok to accept.

So up until the Aura do you agree? (I gave some statements from the 9th volume up above regarding the Desperados, their acausality, empowerment and fate manip).
 
"I can provide proof from the light novel for everything up to Aura part of the Desperados. We could focus on accepting everything up until then and then decide then whether from Aura and below are ok to accept."

Please do. I will make my judgement after i see them.

I agree with your proposed approach.
 
Iida was looking to Kaieda for some explanation. However, like the other audience and Iida, he could only become stunned towards the unbelievable reality unfolding before them.

"I… I don't know..! I've never seen this situation before!" But, it was a reasonable reaction. It was not possible for magic to just increase. Magic is a power that changes the world beyond reason. It is the power of fate itself guided by the wielder's own will. Which is why the amount given to each person was determined upon birth. The fate of each person was decided long before they came into the world. That is humanity's common belief regarding magic. It is common sense for a knight. And yet…

"But, this is…! Other than magic is increasing, I can't explain it!"

The reality unfolding before their eyes right now was in clear violation of that belief. Inexplicable, confusion, bewilderment. Anyone in that place was showing the same reactions as Kaieda. Even that Edelweiss had stood from her seat staring in shock. It was natural. His magic's maximum limit was increasing. The phenomenon that was said to be impossible, Kurogane Ikki trampling over fate by turning his feelings into power, and the theory that had been said to be common sense all had been flipped over its basis. But the one most troubled by what was happening was of course ― the Crimson Princess, Stella Vermillion.

***

―Ah, that's right. This man is always like this. He would not lose no matter how absurd it is, He would not yield no matter how impossible it is. He would never give up on himself, continue to move forward, always ripping common sense into shreds. In that case it is just him kicking away common sense once again. If it's him he would succeed in something of this degree. He would kick away common sense, overcome even fate, and then stand in front of me as the strongest opponent. It is natural. After all, he is, Kurogane Ikki is―


I could also post parts form when Ikki awakened.

This in verse would be immunity to fate manip (breaking free from fate), but since they can still manipulate it, i believe "overcoming fate" is more a case of transcending the normal rules of fate and causality (acausality type 4).
 
Also i just found out, but apparently Jason_Wander who is responsable for the translation of Rakudai volumes, is the same guy that's writing the chapter descriptions on the Rakudai Wiki. That just makes the wiki all the more reliable.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Also i just found out, but apparently Jason_Wander who is responsable for the translation of Rakudai volumes, is the same guy that's writing the chapter descriptions on the Rakudai Wiki. That just makes the wiki all the more reliable.
@FW ^^ This too.
 
Ok so in favor we have First Witch (besides myself, but im OP, so that goes without saying)

Matt is Neutral (im assuiming he means he'll just go for what the majority decides)

Anyone else?
 
I don't really have an opinion yet. Sorry.
 
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