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Iggy/The Fool Upgrade

Iapitus_The_Impaler

Iapitus_The_Impaler

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here is the intro scene from the anime.Avdol states that Polnareff cannot defeat him, which means that the defensive abilities of The Fool must be at least strong enough to block attacks from Polnareff. The stand also was able to restrain Polnareff's sword by forming around it, so he cannot cut it with AP either, just beyond his elemental intangibility. Jotaro also states he may not even be able to beat it, as can be seen in the second scan. This could potentially scale to Pet Shop as well

(nvm on this part) Iggy should also have fear aura, as seen when he used it on the dogs.
 
This mostly refers to its Intangibility as the Fool is a Stand made out of sand.

Though you could argue that a "hardened" Fool could have 8-C dura because of Pol not being able to take the sword back.
 
Yeah, they're referring to him being elemental intangible. At most you could argue 8-C dura for taking Pol's sword, as DMB1 said.
 
Yeah, I'm saying he has 8-C dura for taking the sword. I guess you could day that it isn't going to scale to AP since he used his durability over raw strength to catch Pol's sword
 
Not being able to take your sword back from an opponent gripping it is lifting strength, not AP.

Polnareff not being able to defeat him is because of it's ability, not strength.

That's not conclusively fear manipulation, it could and likely is Iggy just being intimidating.

More proof is required.
 
Firgured it could scale but whatever.

Its a combination. I originally assumed it was just because he hard countered Silver Chariot but in stand fights there is almost always the option to just attack the user if the stand is too invincible, and elemental intangibility would almost guarantee that the next go to action is attacking the dog with the stand not protecting him physically. We also see that durability wise, Silver Chariot cannot cut through The Fool, which backs up what I said previously about it not just coming from hard counters. Jotaro even admits that he could not defeat Iggy, and if all Iggy had was his stand not being able to be hit, Jotaro could easily just punch the user, and if the defensive shields were only small building, then Jotaro would punch through them like they are nothing. He needs durability at least strong enough to not get destroyed before he can reform any cracks that happen to be in his armor.

I was more emphasizing the aura part, similar to what Stain does. You can even see the black aura in the bottum right of the scan. At worst we can put a "possibly" before it
 
No it cannot.

The problem is with attacking The Fool is that he's made up of constantly manipulatable sand. It doesn't matter if you're stronger than the forces holding it together, he can immediately have sand replace whatever damage you do. Polnareff can't beat him because sand will immediately replace whatever damage he does. The other things you're mentioning require specific scans for me to go into more detail.

The reason Stain has fear manip is because he did it to groups of professional heros who train to overcome fear, and Izuku specifically mentions an aura coming from him. None of those things are present with Iggy and absolutely nothing makes me think he has a hidden ability that makes opponents scared of him. No to "possibly".
 
You miss my point entirely. Of course the ability hard counters them, but that wouldn't stop them from just hitting Iggy. The Fool at his current durability would be completely destroyed by Star Platinum, and although he could reform, that would do nothing to stop him from hitting Iggy. Similar Issue with Silver Chariot just being a hax issue. If Silver Chariot was Large Building while The Fool was small building, then Silver Chariot just cleves straight through The Fool (and although no damage to the stand is done) he swings straight through to hit Iggy as well. I already gave the scan of Jotaro not being able to defeat Iggy in the OP. Sand Replacing immediately only helps if they don't have it just pass straight through it to hit Iggy.

I know about the stain situation, i was using it as an example. You don't need to specifically mention aura when you can see the visual effect right in the scan. He scared away the dogs and there was aura around him, a possibly is at least warrented
 
I will take a look and analyze later.

Yes you do need to mention an aura, a visual effect is not enough proof especially coming from a series where characters and settings regularly change colors and patterns and distort for dramatic effect.
 
So what are the conclusions here?
 
I've properly looked at it and I disagree with the 8-C durability.

"Cannot defeat" is too vague, it's not the same thing as Avdol telling Polnareff "he's stronger than you". For that reason Iggy cannot scale to Polnareff.

Polnareff shouts "I can't cut it!" because his sword is trapped inside The Fool. Not being able to retrieve your sword or further push it into an object at a standstill is not indicitive of AP or durability, but lifting strengths.

It's like a shorter muscular dude having more grip, bicep and general arm strength than someone large like Shaq; sure Shaq is going to lose in a tug of war or a battle of grip strength but he's still much stronger in general and can whoop his ass.

My personal conclusion is to throw out this upgrade entirely.
 
Holding the sword in place and not being cut is a durability feat. Just cuz you are holding it makes it no less sharp. Besides, as I said above. Avdol made it clear Pol had no way to win, which includes cleaving straight through the Fool's defenses and not stopping in time for him to reform.
 
I'm afraid holding a sword in place with sand you can freely manipulate is not a durability feat. It's a difference in lifting strengths.

There's a literal panel where SIlver Chariot takes a slash at The Fool and it nearly bisects him entirely. That's not comparable durability and AP, that's a wide gap.
 
Holding the blade with a sword with your hand while someone is applying pressure and not even budging is a durability feat. Your skin, or in this case the hardened sand, must at least be able to not be cut by the blade.

That was due to elementa intangibility, and the fool was not trying to block. He had to reason to block the attack since he wasn't going for Iggy. Let me remind you that if simply cleaving through The Fool and attacking Iggy was possible than Pol would have a way to win, but since he cannot The Fool must be able to block his attacks. Also, his sword catching technique wouldn't work on Jotaro who also states he could not defeat Iggy.
 
If I hold a katana in place with my hand, I'm sorry but it's not a durability feat. The Fool doesn't have any skin or blood either, so he can risk having the sword dig into him a little bit while he holds the sword in place.

The biomechanics at work here (in this case, gripping a sword in place while your opponent tries to move it) resemble large sustained movements, not quick burst movements. Nothing about holding a sword in place is quick burst movements, nor is trying to move it while it's held in place. They are all sustained muscular movements, aka lifting feats.

Jotaro saying he can't defeat The Fool is too vague. It doesn't mean Star Platinum must be weaker than The Fool, but rather that it's ability make it practically invincible against physical attacks. You can't punch sand to death, Jotaro knows that.
 
If you hold the blade by the sides, then it isn't. But if you hold the sharp enough to you palm, and someone pushes down but does not cut you, that is a durability feat.

Ok? that really doesn't change anything, since the sword's sharpness has already proved sharp enough to cut through people like DIO. Even if we say that he only back scales, he still scales.

I never claimed that Jotaro said he was weaker than the fool. Jojo doesn't have linear scaling like that, The Fool just hard counters broot force attackers. Again, while it is obvious that he cannot punch the fool to death, as I have stated multiple times, he must at least be able to block attacks so that neither Pol nor Jotaro could just punch Iggy. Its one of the major parts of a stand battle. Just cuz the stand is invincible, the user is still vulnerable. See, almost all automatic stand fights, and fights with bound stands. Oh, would you look at that, The Fool is a bound stand. What is one of the basic tactics to dealing with a bound stand in jojo? that's right, attack the user. What can Jotaro and Pol not do? Defeat Iggy. Therefore, The Fool must be capable of protecting Iggy from attack with his shielding. This is stand fights 101.

The only major exception to the attacking the user of a bound stand thing is a stand like Surface or Atom Heart Father. The fool is not one of these. Its only complicated or vague when you make it complicated or vague
 
If that person keeps pushing and I keep holding it in place, my hand will bleed and I'll get cut pretty badly and possibly need stitches. Other than that nothing will happen.

It's convinent for The Fool though, because he can't bleed and can't be conventionally cut like us humans can. Therefore him resisting it with no visible injury is not conclusive scaling.

The situation of this non-existent fight between Jotaro and The Fool is all speculation. Jotaro questioning and doubting that he can beat Iggy is not enough for conclusive scaling.
 
I will have to unsubscribe due to time constraints. You can send me a message when you have reached a conclusion.
 
That person has human level strength. A higher end athlete could probably cut through your hand, or at least reach bone. The Fool needs to at least be durable enough to do something comparable, which means he back scales.

No, because he still needs to be at least durable enough to not be cut. An athlete cannot cut through your bone because he does not have the AP, cuz iirc it takes wall level to bisect bones. The Fool needs to be durable enough to not be cut through, and thus back scales.

Jotaro is not one to under sell himself. It is technically speculation, but if he thought he could simply do something as basic as attack the user he would have done that. That is one of the first things when in a stand fight, where is the user and is he vulnerable? What I said still applies to Polnareff anyway. Let me spell this out with some basic cut and dry logic.


If An Attacker can attack the stand user directly, then they have the capacity to defeat that stand user.

Polnareff (an attacker) does not have the capacity to defeat that stand user (Iggy).

Therefore, The Attacker (Polnareff) cannot attack The Stand user (Iggy) directly.

That is cut and dry symbolic logic. deny the premises or accept the conclusion, there is no alternative. The only case where this would not be true is in the case of someone like Valentine, but Iggy has no ability to regenerate from being directly attacked, unless you wanna pull out a hidden ability for iggy
 
Have you asked members who are knowledgeable about JoJo to comment?
 
A good number of knowledgable people are here already, but i reached out to 2 staff members. I think we have reached a conclusion here otherwise
 
No, you have two people who are half-conceding that it could be 8-C and myself who is arguing that it is not 8-C. No conclusion has been reached between us 3 people and yourself, lol.
 
I already have, your latest post is irrelevant to my own and is just more falsehoods. I refuse to have a 200 post argument about this.
 
You really haven't, since none of what you have said previously deals with my examples about why such a drastic AP difference cannot be overcome by what you propose. Just calling it "false" doesn't work, you have to either accept the conclusion or deny the premises. You can choose not to respond, but you cannot bypass hard and dry symbolic logic by just calling it "false."

If you refuse to argue, that is fine, but we will probably move forward without you if you aren't going to respond.
 
I still agree that The Fool's durability should be 8-C for restraining Pol's sword. Not sure if it would scale to its AP for his fight against Pet Shop and Pet Shop itself.
 
Probably the better reasoning is that N'doul couldn't destroy it during their collision.

I'd also bring up Iggy tackling Ice but that was OVA only
 
I feel that what the anime and manga are talking about is mainly Iggy's stand being something that can be cut or crushed (or punched) only to reform itself almost instantly cuz of being made out of/able to turn into sand and vice versa. But like what the first couple people said, it COULD be argued for having 8-C dura at best for preventing Polnareff from either breaking free or attempting to cut his (Iggy's) stand more. Not like that would make any difference given the first cut but still.

Jotaro part could very well also be the same thing. He couldn't punch out Enya's Stand due to being made of fog so I would take that Jotaro being unsure if he can beat Iggy might apply to how it might not be so easy for him to beat a stand that doesn't need to/have a purely physical form (in whatever sense of relation that would make for Stands).

Fear Aura, a bit skeptical on that. Iggy might just be a very intimating dog inspite of his size and look to other dogs (both the scan in the OP and by his background prior to Part 3) rather than possessing a fear aura to other dogs. Maybe he does but it'd be more effective towards other dogs and even still that's just a maybe as I would put it.

TL;DR version:

  • At best, I can see at "possibly 8-C or At best 8-C" for Iggy's The Fool stand dura
  • Not keen on the fear aura for the most part. If it gets added, it would have to be a possibly at the most.
 
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