Johnny Joestar and Gyro Zeppeli Downgrade

Monarch_Laciel · Dec 21, 2018

... along with anyone else who is rated as High 3-A based on infinite rotation, if there is anyone

Based on my arguments in this thread, which I will post here:

I personally don't understand why we rate Johnny at High 3-A

Infinite force and energy is not impacting to the body all at once, it's simply imbuing the body with a rotating force that never ends.

Infinite force and energy is not impacting to the body all at once, it's simply imbuing the body with a rotating force that never ends.

That there is infinite potential energy in the bullet is irrelevant.

It is not hitting the target with infinite joules of force. It is hitting the target with 8-B joules of force, which then proceed to push on the target in a rotating pattern forever and ever and ever.

The Infinite Rotation is infinite in the sense that it will never end. The force will push on the target with the same amount of force, forever. You can push back, you can add air friction, you can make the energy disperse as heat - it doesn't matter. You will continue to feel 8-B worth of joules pushing on you in a rotating motion, forever.

Infinite Rotation does not, and from my memory, never has, used the word "infinite" in the sense that it hits with ∞-joules in a single blow. It has only ever used the word infinite in the sense of "endless", which matches with what is shown far far better than the idea that the infinite rotation bullets are shot with high 3-A kinetic energy and joules in and of themselves

Johnny being High 3-A is like saying Aladdin is High 3-A thanks to Dhoruf Asshara

For clarification on my example, this is Dhoruf Asshara:

A spell that fixes a force to an object , and continues to apply a certain force in the same direction and with the same intensity forever. For all eternity.

Sounds pretty similar. Imbues an object with a force that never ends. But it's not High 3-A, because the force is not all at once.

This sca is used as a counter argument to say that the bullets are High 3-A due to the part about "infinite rotational force". However, it also says the damage "will never end". Like every other use of the word "infinite" in Part 7, the description is clearly using the word infinite in the sense that it's effects will never stop rather than in the sense that the bullets each hit with infinite force. If the description said "a stand ability with never-ending rotational energy", would it be any less accurate to what is actually shown?

DMB_1 · Dec 21, 2018

Added the categories, and following for now.

~~Also, making a "Spin Force" Superpower would be kinda nice~~

WeeklyBattles · Dec 21, 2018

100000000% Agreed

Monarch_Laciel · Dec 21, 2018

Further evidence:

Are Johnny or Valentine immediately splattered upon being hit by the bullet? No? That's because it does not hit with High 3-A joules, which is what is required to be ranked at High 3-A.

Well, either that or both those characters have High 3-A dura. Which one takes less massive assumptions and is not contradicted by every time those characters are injured?

Firephoenixearl · Dec 21, 2018

Agree.

Mr. Bambu · Dec 21, 2018

I agree, infinite in this case (based on the scans brought up elsewhere) is 100% referring to the fact that it spins forever regardless of outside force rather than actually having universe-busting damage.

DMB_1 · Dec 21, 2018

Ok, I read through this, and I agree now.

Monarch_Laciel · Dec 21, 2018

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/351162

For reference, this is the previous thread that was used for upgrading it to High 3-A

However it also uses the incorrect assumption around back then that Love Train had a barrier of infinite universes, which was debunked later.

ProfessorLord · Dec 21, 2018

Alright, let the battle begin:

Johnny's infinite rotation shot has infinite energy within it. That's a fact, not debatable. Zepelli has said it carries the power of infinity, it can cause objects to spin forever, etc. We both acknowledge that I think.

We don't rate firearms attack potency based on the damage inflicted to a target, but rather the energy expelled. If we did then all firearms would vary in attack potency depending on range, which is not the case.

Similarly here we shouldn't rate the infinite rotation based on the visible damage inflicted to a target, but rather the energy expelled, which would be infinite/High 3-A. It is a bullet after all.

The scan of ACT4 very clearly states: "a Stand ability with the power of infinite rotational energy" and "Its damage is also likely infinite and should never end"

- what you're extrapolating is very different. You're saying that infinite is being used in the context of endless but that doesn't make sense, first off the ability is based on a mathmatical concept that's brought up many times which should suggest that they mean the mathmatical value of infinite rather than your definition, but second off, "endless rotational energy" is redundant if you're going to point out that it "should never end" immediately after.

Your counterpoint is even more stupid:

Are Johnny or Valentine immediately splattered upon being hit by the bullet? No? That's because it does not hit with High 3-A joules, which is what is required to be ranked at High 3-A.

Well, either that or both those characters have High 3-A dura. Which one takes less massive assumptions and is not contradicted by every time those characters are injured?

Of course not, because it's well known within this wiki that attack potency doesn't always correlate with destructive capacity in fiction. By that logic I guess Frieza's death beam should be a 9-B attack too? He doesn't obliterate fighters who he should be much stronger than. It's ridiculous, you can hit with the force of 3-A and not cause catostrophic damage on a global scale in fiction. You know this, I know this.

ProfessorLord · Dec 21, 2018

Monarch Laciel said:
However it also uses the incorrect assumption around back then that Love Train had a barrier of infinite universes, which was debunked later.

When?

Also no, his rating had nothing to do with the IR being pit against Love Train. Read the thread and you'd know that. It comes from the fact that the author is literally saying it has infinite rotational energy.

Monarch_Laciel · Dec 21, 2018

ProfessorLord said:
When?

Also no, his rating had nothing to do with the IR being pit against Love Train. Read the thread and you'd know that. It comes from the fact that the author is literally saying it has infinite rotational energy.

Weekly did it.

Love Train's barrier is not made of infinite universes, it is a gateway to infinite universes. Which when it comes to bypassing it, is very different.

ProfessorLord · Dec 21, 2018

Oh, I was confused because you said "had" and not is made up of infinite universes. You should really be more clear.

I already agreed with Weekly in that thread and so we took away Valentine's durability rating and turned it into hax. Johnny's IR does not scale to Love Train though, so it's a seperate issue entirely. Read the thread.

ProfessorLord · Dec 21, 2018

Just to be clear since it may be a little confusing, but ACT4 is the physical embodiment and representation of the infinite rotation. Whenever Johnny reaches the golden ratio, he can deploy ACT4.

ACT4 =/= Infinite Rotation (Gyro can use the infinite rotation too, the Stand he gains from doing so is Ball Breaker)

It's just a Stand that can only be created from the IR and can use its special properties and hax.

Eficiente · Dec 21, 2018

So, this could be downgraded before GER's infinite speed? I'm kinda sad.

I agree. Granted, the "its damage is also likely infinite" is still a thing separated from "and should never end".

Monarch_Laciel · Dec 21, 2018

ProfessorLord said:
Alright, let the battle begin:

Trust me, it's not going to be much of a battle.

<
Johnny's infinite rotation shot has infinite energy within it. That's a fact, not debatable. Zepelli has said it carries the power of infinity, it can cause objects to spin forever, etc. We both acknowledge that I think.

We don't rate firearms attack potency based on the damage inflicted to a target, but rather the energy expelled. If we did then all firearms would vary in attack potency depending on range, which is not the case.

Similarly here we shouldn't rate the infinite rotation based on the visible damage inflicted to a target, but rather the energy expelled, which would be infinite/High 3-A. It is a bullet after all.

No. This is a bad argument. We are not rating the bullets on the visible damage, we are rating it on the amount of energy expelled in a single moment, Johnny and the bullet do not expel infinite energy, they expel finite energy that lasts forever. Very different.

If we rated things based on the total amount of energy they contained, then surviving inside a sun would be a 4-C feat. It is not, it's only 8-B, because 4-C energy is not released on the person inside all at once.

The scan of ACT4 very clearly states: "a Stand ability with the power of infinite rotational energy" and "Its damage is also likely infinite and should never end"

- what you're extrapolating is very different. You're saying that infinite is being used in the context of endless but that doesn't make sense, first off the ability is based on a mathmatical concept that's brought up many times which should suggest that they mean the mathmatical value of infinite rather than your definition, but second off, "endless rotational energy" is redundant if you're going to point out that it "should never end" immediately after.

That it is a mathematical concept of infinity does not mean it is hitting with infinite force all at once, which, you do not seem to understand, is necessary for something to be rated at a certain tier.

Furthermore, the "mathematical concept" that you talk about uses the concept of the golden rectangles within golden rectangles that keeps going on and on for infinity, never ending. Not all of infinity at once.

It's not redundant, it's forcing a point home with repeated evidence.

Your counterpoint is even more stupid:

Are Johnny or Valentine immediately splattered upon being hit by the bullet? No? That's because it does not hit with High 3-A joules, which is what is required to be ranked at High 3-A.

Well, either that or both those characters have High 3-A dura. Which one takes less massive assumptions and is not contradicted by every time those characters are injured?

Of course not, because it's well known within this wiki that attack potency doesn't always correlate with destructive capacity in fiction. By that logic I guess Frieza's death beam should be a 9-B attack too? He doesn't obliterate fighters who he should be much stronger than. It's ridiculous, you can hit with the force of 3-A and not cause catostrophic damage on a global scale in fiction. You know this, I know this.

Again, you miss the point. You're focusing on the idea that they are not "splattered".

Ecstasy_Amphetamine · Dec 21, 2018

RIP JoJo hax soon Kars will be 9-B with MiHU

Mr. Bambu · Dec 21, 2018

Visions of Tier 6 JoJos exploding like cherry bombs in Toot Skeleton's head

Monarch_Laciel · Dec 21, 2018

ProfessorLord said:
Just to be clear since it may be a little confusing, but ACT4 is the physical embodiment and representation of the infinite rotation. Whenever Johnny reaches the golden ratio, he can deploy ACT4.
ACT4 =/= Infinite Rotation (Gyro can use the infinite rotation too, the Stand he gains from doing so is Ball Breaker)

It's just a Stand that can only be created from the IR and can use its special properties and hax.

Cool

All of this explanation is irrelevant because it doesn't matter that Tusk 4 represents infinite rotation, it matters how infinite rotation is actually defined and acts

Now show that this infinite rotation is hitting with infinite force in a single instant and not just a force that never stops rotating.

Monarch_Laciel · Dec 21, 2018

Also, I'm going to be civil and mature, and you're going to be civil and mature, and neither of us are going to be sassy to each other, we're going to have a respectful debate.

ProfessorLord · Dec 21, 2018

No. This is a bad argument. We are not rating the bullets on the visible damage, we are rating it on the amount of energy expelled in a single moment, Johnny and the bullet do not expel infinite energy, they expel finite energy that lasts forever. Very different.

If we rated things based on the total amount of energy they contained, then surviving inside a sun would be a 4-C feat. It is not, it's only 8-B, because 4-C energy is not released on the person inside all at once.

That's kind of not fair then, because he can't expel it in a single moment. He needs to generate the energy by approaching the golden ratio and then once the bullet is filled with infinite energy, shoot it out. He's not launching finite energy, you have nothing to suggest that he is. By default he should have infinite since it's very clearly stated as "power of infinite rotational energy", not "the power to use infinite rotational energy".

True, but that's because the energy of a sun dies out at an exponential rate. A value of infinite cannot be decreased at an exponential rate, therefore whether or not we base it on the energy contained or released, IR will be High 3-A.

That it is a mathematical concept of infinity does not mean it is hitting with infinite force all at once, which, you do not seem to understand, is necessary for something to be rated at a certain tier.

Furthermore, the "mathematical concept" that you talk about uses the concept of the golden rectangles within golden rectangles that keeps going on and on for infinity, never ending. Not all of infinity at once.

If the power of infinite rotational energy (which is infinity) punches through you, you're being hit with an infinite force. Now mind you I said the opponent is also imbued with said energy in the past, but that's only after it goes straight through them entirely.

Do you have anything that suggests the target is not being hit with infinite force all at once (other than destructive capacity, which I've established does not correlate)? No? Okay, then that's the baseline assumption.

ProfessorLord · Dec 21, 2018

Monarch Laciel said:
Also, I'm going to be civil and mature, and you're going to be civil and mature, and neither of us are going to be sassy to each other, we're going to have a respectful debate.

I can be civil and mature, but I'm also going to be sassy, sorry

ProfessorLord · Dec 21, 2018

Heads up, unless you concede within the next half hour or so (as expected) this thread is probably going to go on all day, I have work to do so I may not be around 24/7.

Back to the debate, this is an example of Johnny deploying both the IR and ACT4. You can see he beats Valentine up then transforms back into the point and punches straight through him. Visual reference, I guess. He doesn't end up spinning forever because, you know, gameplay.

Mr. Bambu · Dec 21, 2018

"you have nothing to suggest that he is."

Actually he does, that's sorta the premise of the thread. Not gonna point out other stuff as I'll leave it to Monarch, but that's a poor rebuttal.

ProfessorLord · Dec 21, 2018

That's a false premise though, I already gave my rebuttal to his previous suggestions. Therefore if we assume that my logic was correct up until then, he would have no former points to give credit to his suggestion, they've already been refuted.

Is it called false premise? I don't actually know, lol.

Monarch_Laciel · Dec 21, 2018

ProfessorLord said:
That's kind of not fair then, because he can't expel it in a single moment. He needs to generate the energy by approaching the golden ratio and then once the bullet is filled with infinite energy, shoot it out. He's not launching finite energy, you have nothing to suggest that he is. By default he should have infinite since it's very clearly stated as "power of infinite rotational energy", not "the power to use infinite rotational energy".

You misunderstand what I mean by "in one moment". I'm not talking about preparatory movements, or else we would need to divide the joules released by punches by the time it takes to pull the arm back. In order for the bullet to be rated as High 3-A, the moment the bullet impacts the target, it must release infinity joules. If it does not, it cannot qualify.

True, but that's because the energy of a sun dies out at an exponential rate.

It has nothing to do with how fast the sun dies out. It has to do with how much energy is affecting the person in the sun in one singular instant.

A value of infinite cannot be decreased at an exponential rate, therefore whether or not we base it on the energy contained or released, IR will be High 3-A.

I never said anything about IR decreasing. I said it does not decrease, but that it continues to impart a rotational force forever. That does not mean the rotational force is itself pushing with infinite joules of force at every single instant.

If the power of infinite rotational energy punches through you, you're being hit with an infinite force. Now mind you I said the opponent is also imbued with said energy in the past, but that's only after it goes straight through them entirely.

There is an important distinction, that I am being very careful to make, between energy and force. I agree that IR has infinite energy, because it spins forever. It undoubtedly has infinite potential energy from which to spin forever with. However, this does not mean it is hitting with infinite joules of force at every single instant.

Do you have anything that suggests the target is not being hit with infinite force all at once (other than destructive capacity, which I've established does not correlate)? No? Okay, then that's the baseline assumption.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Fallacy#3._Burden_of_proof_fallacy

I cannot, and do not need to, prove that the target is not being hit with infinite force. You need to prove that they are being hit with infinite force. And I am talking about force not energy. Because it is force that matters to AP, not energy

Monarch_Laciel · Dec 21, 2018

ProfessorLord said:
That's a false premise though, I already gave my rebuttal to his previous suggestions. Therefore if we assume that my logic was correct up until then, he would have no former points to give credit to his suggestion, they've already been refuted.
Is it called false premise? I don't actually know, lol.

Your false premise here, if that is the correct term for what is going on, is that you are equating force and energy when the two things are not the same.

By assuming that energy and force are the same, you give credibility to your own argument that the "infinite rotational energy" term used in Jojo is the same thing as "infinite joules" used on the wiki. This is incorrect, and thus no argument based on it has credit.

Monarch_Laciel · Dec 21, 2018

ProfessorLord said:
Heads up, unless you concede within the next half hour or so (as expected) this thread is probably going to go on all day, I have work to do so I may not be around 24/7.
Back to the debate, this is an example of Johnny deploying both the IR and ACT4. You can see he beats Valentine up then transforms back into the point and punches straight through him. Visual reference, I guess. He doesn't end up spinning forever because, you know, gameplay.

I'll be asleep in half an hour.

He does not "punch straight through him". That simply doesn't happen. Tusk spins until it gets small and then Funny is pushed backwards. That is what that clip depicts. I also question its canonicity regardless.

ProfessorLord · Dec 21, 2018

You misunderstand what I mean by "in one moment". I'm not talking about preparatory movements, or else we would need to divide the joules released by punches by the time it takes to pull the arm back. In order for the bullet to be rated as High 3-A, the moment the bullet impacts the target, it must release infinity joules. If it does not, it cannot qualify.

Yeah, that's kind of expected of the "power of infinite rotational energy". If the attack is carrying infinite energy, it's delivering infinite energy. It is carrying infinite energy because it's using the "power of infinite rotational energy" not the "power to cause rotation for infinite" as you seem to think.

It has nothing to do with how fast the sun dies out. It has to do with how much energy is affecting the person in the sun in one singular instant.

I think you misunderstood me. The energy the bullet contains has to be the same as the energy it delivers. You said that's not true, because the energy the sun contains is not the energy it delivers to someone. That's true, but the reason why is because the sun radiates the energy rather than focuses it, so you divide the energy based on distance and whatnot.

Now instead of a regular star, let's use one with infinite energy (but assume regular dimensions). In this case, it doesn't matter where you are in relation to the star, you'll be recieving infinite energy. Why? Because instead of the energy exponentially decreasing the further away you are, it won't. You can't exponentially decrease infinity.

That's kind of what I was saying, but in different context. The energy the bullet has is the same energy the opponent is recieving, even if that wouldn't be true for a star, or even a regular bullet. Infinity can't be treated that way.

There is an important distinction, that I am being very careful to make, between energy and force. I agree that IR has infinite energy, because it spins forever. It undoubtedly has infinite potential energy from which to spin forever with. However, this does not mean it is hitting with infinite joules of force at every single instant.

Which brings me back to my point, if you get hit with infinite energy, you're being hit with an infinite force. "infinite rotational energy" is the same thing as "infinite angular kinetic energy". They only spin forever as a consequence of touching it, not the other way around.

You can't say he doesn't have infinite kinetic energy when the author says he has infinite rotational energy. They're one of the same.

DMB_1 · Dec 21, 2018

Mr. Bambu said:
Visions of Tier 6 JoJos exploding like cherry bombs in Toot Skeleton's head

Fun fact: SMT has a Toot Skeleton.

Mr. Bambu · Dec 21, 2018

my toot skeleton toots better than their toot skeleton

ProfessorLord · Dec 21, 2018

I've got a spicey JoJo celebration meme after I win this @Monarch

Monarch_Laciel · Dec 21, 2018

You won't though.

Literally everything except an incorrect definition of infinite disagrees with your points.

ProfessorLord · Dec 21, 2018

Someone didn't read my latest post.

Or maybe it's too difficult for someone with a middle school level understanding to comprehend.

(burn)

ProfessorLord · Dec 21, 2018

I'll summarize what I think to be the gist of our argument so far:

"which matches with what is shown far far better than the idea that the infinite rotation bullets are shot with high 3-A kinetic energy and joules in and of themselves" (you said it cannot have high 3-A kinetic energy)

"Which brings me back to my point, if you get hit with infinite energy, you're being hit with an infinite force. "infinite rotational energy" is the same thing as "infinite angular kinetic energy". They only spin forever as a consequence of touching it, not the other way around." (author says it has high 3-A rotational energy, which is the same thing as high 3-A kinetic energy)

Your argument about phrasing seems to have been dropped.

Mr. Bambu · Dec 21, 2018

ProfessorLord said:
Someone didn't read my latest post.
Or maybe it's too difficult for someone with a middle school level understanding to comprehend.

(burn)

Mayhap cut the insults and debate like an adult.

ProfessorLord · Dec 21, 2018

Mr. Bambu said:
Mayhap cut the insults and debate like an adult.

You were literally just obsessed over toot skeletons and cherry bombs with your internet friend. You lost your right to command people to act like an adult lol

Monarch_Laciel · Dec 21, 2018

Did he lose the right to suggest that people don't act like dicks too?

Mr. Bambu · Dec 21, 2018

Jokes are jokes. You need to realize that you are not in fact exempt from any rules. This wiki is a place where debates are held by people who can act like an adult enough to not try their pot-shot petty insults on people who point out flaws in another person's arguments. As it stands, Monarch has only pointed out legitimate flaws whereas, from you, I have seen smug confidence, cylical rebuttals, and insults. So you tell me what should be done here.

ProfessorLord · Dec 21, 2018

Monarch Laciel said:
Did he lose the right to suggest that people don't act like dicks too?

You have very high standards if you think people giving you sass means they're a dick.

If you're awake though, why not refute my point? Let's get this over with!

Firephoenixearl · Dec 21, 2018

Mr. Bambu said:
Mayhap cut the insults and debate like an adult.

Lol that sounded something like "fight like a man" you hear in movies. xD

Anyway i put this in Ginji vs Johnny too, but can't the infinite rotation just be through the 1st law of Thermodynamics or the Conservation of Energy? Breaking the 1st law of thermodynamics would make something spin indefinitely, there would be nothing to stop it, without there being infinite energy.

On an atomic scale there is no "obstacle" to reduce the energy. Friction or impact don't exist so there is nothing to cause the energy to disperse not even in the form of heat. If the energy doesn't disperse or transform into another form of energy then the particle would keep spinning indefinitely as there would be nothing to stop it from spinning.

The total energy of an isolated system is constant; energy can be transformed from one form to another, but can be neither created nor destroyed.

If Johnny can stop energy from being transformed then that energy will stay in there indefinitely making the body spin. About infinite energy, yes. If the energy is conserved indefinitely then it would be "endless" (which as we've gone over before can be a synonym for infinte in translations and such), because there would be nothing to end the energy or transform it.

Monarch's idea is basically the same, as it's saying that it applies 8-B energy endlessly (it keeps applying that 8-B energy), but there is nothing that can reduce energy on an atomic scale so there would be no need to keep on applying more energy to it. So rather a 8-B energy that doesn't end, BECAUSE there is nothing to end it sounds better to me. But i'll let you guys decide on this.

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