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(DBS) Broly vs (Tournament of Power) Jiren

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The_2nd_Existential_Seed

The_2nd_Existential_Seed

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Definitely was expecting this to be a thing by now....

Let's start w/ Super Saiyan for Broly. He can go Super Saiyan (Full Power) after a set period during the fight . Goku remembering Jiren's strength, wanted to use Jiren as a measuring stick for how strong Broly could get in a set period of time post-Broly Movie. So, after a good bit of time, with PIS/CIS, asks Whis to create a copy of Jiren that has the same level of power as he did during the Tournament. He was successful, then went to Vampa to ask Broly to fight this Fighter of Justice. He accepts.

(SS/SSFP) Post-Broly Movie Broly vs (Full Power/Limit Breaker) Tournament of Power Jiren

Broly: 2

Jiren:

Inconclusive: 1

(Restricted) Super Saiyan Broly
Jiren Limit Breaker
 
Why post Broly movie lol, we don't know how strong Broly is after the events of the movie

Also, we need to use dat SS Broly render.
 
Well...

Super Saiyan Broly was referred to be quote on quote: " The strongest being in existence " by Golden Frieza during their one-sided struggle before he fights Gogeta ( He's likely including Jiren here, since as mentioned in a previous Broly thread definitely knows of LB Jiren's power). Goku refers to either Super Saiyan Broly or Super Saiyan Full Power, the one who beat him up was the strongest ever ( which, again likely refers to SS Broly as he was not beaten up by Super Saiyan Full Power Broly ). He held his own against SS Gogeta after a bit, then with SSFP forced Gogeta to use SSB , meaning he's likely stronger than SSG Gogeta.

And sure we can add that render.
 
Broly has several statements claiming he is the strongest opponent the Z-Fighters have ever faced including a statement by Frieza in the novel where he refers to Broly as the strongest (when Frieza infers that he sensed LB Jiren when he fights exhausted Jiren). SS Broly also has a reactive power level far above that of any other saiyan. So, while Jiren is clearly the superior martial artist and overall fighter I think Broly takes this with raw power.
 
Hoo boy...

Honestly, I'm gonna go inconclusive.

Broly's immense power and growth rate are to me ultimately held back by his lack of experience and refinement. LB Jiren was also able to give MUI Goku one Hell of a fight and MUI Goku was also improving and growing more powerful as they fought. Not to mention that LB Jiren was at times able to completely counter and get through MUI's defenses. So, Jiren was able to deal with an opponent who also growing more powerful and had a level of skill and speed that I don't see Broly replicating. Jiren's own power is not inconsiderable to boot.

Yet, I cannot truly discount the notion of Broly just becoming powerful enough to eventually outmuscle Jiren. However, Jiren being able to contend with MUI, which boasts not only extremely high power but also skill, doesn't allow me to write off the thought of Jiren potentially taking Broly down before he loses control of the fight.

I may change my vote depending on what others say or points made later but this is what I'm going with for now.
 
AKM sama said:
Frieza's statement is shaky tbh. He said nobody alive could defeat Broly despite Whis already being there and him witnessing Zeno's power. His statement cannot be taken seriously.
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Let's see... Zeno, Whis, all the angels probably for that matter...

Honestly, I find lot of the stuff surrounding Broly seems like effort to try an hype Broly up so he seems credible after the levels everyone got to in the ToP.
 
Broly stomps, the fact that Gogeta needs to use Blue and visually put effort in his attacks to keep broly at bay is far beyond what you can assume for Jiren, specially since even base Gogeta was shown to be above both SSB Goku and Vegeta.
 
Eh...does Frieza know that Whis is Beerus' teacher though? I'm pretty sure in some non-canon materials he refers to and thinks of Whis as just a servant. HIs neglect of the Zeno twins is questionable but if he thinks the angels are just there to serve the gods then it makes sense that he wouldn't include them in his estimate.
 
Also, pretty sure that people can't sense UIO Goku (and by extension MUI). So while he would have sensed LB Jiren I don't think he would have been able to sense MUI Goku. If he couldn't sense MUI Goku and he wasn't physically watching the battle he would just think Goku lost or that the godly drawback would have prevented him from fighting Broly.

I'm reaching a bit here but I think it's justified to consider it.
 
The very fact that Freeza doesn't know the limitations of GoDs and angels, and knows what Zeno can do, but still says something as stupid as that, makes the statement questionable on its own. That statement is the very definition of a hyperbole.
 
Jiren:

1. Stated to be stronger than Belmod, and the hakaishin level in general.

2. Fought UI Goku who recieved a standing ovation by the GoDs for mastering a form that at least some of them haven't, and for which the multiplier over SSB is much greater than 40x but still unknown.

Broly:

1. Stated to probably/might be stronger than Beerus.

2. Forced Gogeta to go SSB which is a huge multiplier but still unknown.
 
That's why I said it was a tossup. There's a lot of ambuigity here and we've reached a point that without two characters actually fighting each other, it's hard to gauge exactly where they all sit.

I mean, Beerus admitted that MUI Goku may have surpassed him and LB Jiren kept up until Goku went Rage Mode.
 
TheC2 said:
I mean, Beerus admitted that MUI Goku may have surpassed him and LB Jiren kept up until Goku went Rage Mode.
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I'm not taking anything from the magazines seriously until they have been confirmed in the actual show. Magazines are just hype materials now.
 
AKM sama said:
The very fact that Freeza doesn't know the limitations of GoDs and angels, and knows what Zeno can do, but still says something as stupid as that, makes the statement questionable on its own. That statement is the very definition of a hyperbole.
Click to expand...
Yet he has fought Jiren and has seemingly sensed LB Jiren (According to what he says when fighting him). This means that Frieza was likely comparing SS Broly to LB Jiren. Frieza doesn't know the limits of the GoDs and Angels but he HAS served Beerus for many years and can compare his experiences with Goku and Jiren to Broly and as you stated Jiren is said to be stronger than Belmod (Prior to his limit break).

We have consistently had advertisements and statements claiming that Broly is the strongest opponent they have ever faced. We have Goku stating that Broly is 'probably' stronger than Beerus. We have Frieza claiming that 'no one alive' could defeat Broly (When, again, he has sensed the power of LB Jiren).

While I'm not going to argue it I should also point out that Goku's statement of Broly (probably) being stronger than Beerus may come from his fight with SS Broly (and not as Gogeta fighting Broly) and that Frieza states no one alive can defeat SS Broly (again, compared to LB Jiren). This is Post-Gogeta Broly who can tap into Full Power after fighting Jiren for a long enough time period. To add further, Broly is constantly angry in Super Saiyan (one could even say bloodlusted) and would likely go in for the kill immediately whereas Jiren would try to match SS Broly (as it is his fighting style.)

So we have a Post-Gogeta SS Broly who is stated to 'probably' be stronger than Beerus, who Frieza has stated no one can defeat (Compared to LB Jiren) and is consistently stated to be the strongest opponent ever faced within advertisements and, if I recall, interviews. Compare this to Jiren who has no statements or reasoning to back him up other than Whis being capable of defeating Broly, someone that Frieza has never seen fight and has no reason to believe is superior to Beerus.

SS Gogeta is stronger than SS Broly and Broly adapted enough to freaking SSB Gogeta to being capable of matching his movements. That's a ridiculous gap of at least over 10x more powerful than his previous level (As SSB is stronger than SSG which is vastly superior to SS3).

So, with all of the things I have already stated + Broly's reactive power level...I honestly don't see a way to argue in favour of Jiren.
 
AKM sama said:
I'm not taking anything from the magazines seriously until they have been confirmed in the actual show. Magazines are just hype materials now.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I can agree to that.
 
TheC2 said:
I mean, Beerus admitted that MUI Goku may have surpassed him and LB Jiren kept up until Goku went Rage Mode.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure in one of the magazines preview Beerus said Third UIS Goku might be stronger than him and not MUI Goku.
 
"This means that Frieza was likely comparing SS Broly to LB Jiren. "

We can't pick and choose which characters he is talking about according to our headcanon. His statement is pretty clear that no being alive could defeat Broly which is false and the very definition of hyperbole in this context.

I'm just playing devil's advocate from both sides.
 
Fair enough but I would like to know the case for him being aware of Whis being stronger than Beerus.
 
I don't believe Frieza was ever told. I may be wrong.

One thing I do know is that Frieza can't sense God Ki whatsoever. So he can't actually sense Whis or Beerus.
 
I'm pretty sure he has feats of sensing God Ki in the anime but even if he can Beerus and Whis have never shown their true power. SSG Goku believed in Beerus when he said he was only using '70%' of his power meaning that it's plausible for people to be fooled by their suppressed power. So if Frieza was comparing SS Broly to the gods he would have been comparing him to their suppressed powers.

Frieza has personally seen the incompetence of Sidra (even controlling a small fraction of his power) and has startled Helles with his cruelty so I can picture him underestimating Beerus.

In comparison he has sensed the power of LB Jiren and could compare him to SS Broly.
 
Frieza was knocked out before LB Jiren fought MUI Goku and didn't reenter the fight until after Goku lost MUI and was forced to save Goku from being ringed out.

At that point, LB Jiren had nearly been beaten into submission and wasn't a 100% anymore. Even then, once Jiren got his head back in the game was still stronger than Frieza and it took a combined effort Frieza, Goku and 17 to ultimately ring him out.

Really, Frieza's only gauge of LB Jiren is when he was weakened. Remember that regular Jiren could already curbstomp Frieza. Hence, we can't really can't use his statement as there are a good number of things he doesn't/wouldn't know.
 
Regular Jiren is comparable to Peak UIO Goku so I wouldn't scoff at that level of power. The question is how long Frieza was awake for. He would have been knocked out for at least two minutes (considering the episode he is knocked out in says there is three minutes left) whereas he woke up from GoD Toppo's assault within a single minute. Frieza saved Goku two minutes after Jiren knocked him out. Meaning he must have woken up within two minutes.

However, there is the issue that Frieza was already badly damaged and was directly attacked by Jiren which may have resulted in him being knocked out longer. Frieza was almost certainly awake for at least several seconds prior to Goku being blown off the stage yet he also compared Jiren to his previous self.

Overall, we know Frieza could sense Jiren. We know he could wake up from GoD Toppo's assault in under a minute and we know that Goku vs Jiren lasted two minutes. Frieza could have awakened after Jiren was defeated by MUI Goku or beforehand.

Regardless of this rationale he DID fight GoD Toppo (Who SSBE Vegeta, who is comparable to SSBKKX20 Goku according to an interview, had to go all-out with a final explosion to defeat) and still claims that SS Broly is too powerful for anyone to defeat. So we know SS Broly is comparable to that. We also know that he was capable of effectively beating Post-ToP SSB Goku and Vegeta (who are both superior to SSBKKX20 and SSBE).

So, bare minimum. SS Broly is comparable to Jiren vs SSBKK Goku and SSBE Vegeta. If Frieza woke up in just a minute or minute and a half then SS Broly would be comparable to LB Jiren.
 
Also, bare in mind that this is Post-Gogeta Broly against Jiren. Everything I have said thus far is the minimum power possible for SS Broly to have had against Frieza. The SS Broly in this fight would be vastly superior to even that and has access to FPSS.

Edit: After rewatching the scene I noticed that Frieza was actually knocked into base form by Jiren yet when he shows up to save Goku he is Golden. This means Frieza must have expended some time to power up beforehand. The issue with this is that Jiren was already defeated and Goku was knocked out of base...meaning they were vastly weaker than before (As indicated by Frieza fighting Jiren toe to toe and noting his loss of power). So I would like to raise the argument that Jiren would have sensed the sudden spike of power from Frieza if he had transformed when Goku was knocked out of MUI.

This, in my mind, raises the point that Frieza would have had to have awakened either during the battle between Goku and Jiren (when they were completely absorbed in fighting eachother, whom have vastly superior energy signatures) or in the tiny period of time that Jiren was knocked on the ground. Even then I'm pretty sure people can't even sense UI so...wouldn't Jiren have sensed Frieza transforming when he was at Goku's mercy?
 
Interviews and Magazines tend to conflict with each other, not to mention people also tend to have double-stranded *cough*Jiren fanboys*cough* when it comes to an outside source and then you have to the BS arguments, like claiming one source is more reliable than the others.

To begin with: Jiren's power is all over the place, Toei jerked him off to death. The only consistent statement about him in all sources is that fact he is stronger than Belmod, so I think we should stick to that.
 
If we put all Interviews and promo material into rest:

Jiren was WAY too overhyped in the anime, 110 Jiren was suggested to be above the gods, which make FB Jiren >>>>>>>>>>>>> GoDs, we know is false though.

If we take Whiss comment into account that means FB Jiren was already above all GoDs and THEN he gets a huge power-up that put him on equal foot with UI Goku before Goku ultimately take him down.

A line like "he is the strongest guy I faced " from Goku would make things nice and clear, but he went and compare him to Beerus instead ┬»\_(Òâä)_/┬»

IMO Broly doesn't have enough statement to back him his claim of being the strongest enemy when Jiren did everything Broly did and some more. Toei had 40+ episode to jerk off Jiren while they had to deal with Broly in 40 min of show time.

I am pretty sure Broly is meant to be stronger than Jiren narrative-wise, but the feats and statement don't add up here, and with that being said.

My vote goes to Jiren~
 
What about Broly's ability to reactively grow in power? I'm not experienced with this website but I don't recognize any rules that would conflict with the use of it or any statements by Seed about it being limited.

So Broly should, by all means, start off as probably stronger than Beerus (Seeing as this is Post-Gogeta SS Broly) who has the ability to rapidly adapt to Jiren. Broly went from Planetary+ to Universal+ in just about...well the time dilation in DB is ridiculous so it could have been mere minutes to hours but if we go with on-screen time it seems to have taken minutes for him to near Post-ToP SSB Goku in just Ikari and then massively surpass SSB Goku and Vegeta with SS.

Broly also adapted to Gogeta incredibly quickly. Not enough to surpass him but enough to make Gogeta work for it.

So, I would say even if SS Broly is weaker than LB Jiren he could still easily win if he evolves quickly enough.
 
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