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Major JoJo Revisions

Eficiente

Eficiente

He/Him
VS Battles
Thread Moderator
15,441
5,031
This is mostly a powers addition thread, but it also has a couple of downgrades that, hopefully, we can deal with in this very same thread.

GER's infinite speed
Should be a Resistance to Time Erase. I was defending her infinite speed in the last thread the matter was brought up but.. I change my beliefs. (I used to do this a lot with this topic.)

The reasons are simple:

  • Diavolo reacts to her its energy prolleccion here and here Diavolo states that he couldn't see the attack, but that he saw the forecast of a hole in his hand. Thing is, there should be no hole in his hand, the attack was going to Diavolo but he put his hand to block it, there should be no "I can just barely dodge his attacks!" as he says.
  • Similar to characters in fiction who can resist time stop only after being affected by it for a while, GER does nothing and doesn't move during the time erase for quite some time here
    • Obviously, time stop=/=time erase. Just making a comparison.
  • Diavolo had a prediction where he killed Giorno, specifically for being "a moment faster!" here, here, on the last page, GER even says that he was going to kill Giorno, but that she just causality nope that.
  • GER doesn't muda muda Diavolo at infinite speed here.
P&A Additions
Red Hot Chili Pepper

Polnareff

Silver Chariot Requiem

Giorno

Mista

  • "Supernatural Luck"? Huh?? Where does this come from?
  • Homing Attack via [insert elaboration].
Narancia

Diavolo

  • Time Erasing shows to have Spatial Manipulation, but this is not used for combat, here
Risotto Nero

  • "possibly Wall level (barely survived an attack from Aerosmith)" Nah.
Bug-Eate

  • (Ô£ô)"Building level with Ratt (Managed to shoot and puncture Jotaro many times throughout their fight)" Nah
  • (Ô£ô)"possibly Building level (Managed to withstand and survive a ball-bearing launched by Crazy Diamond for several seconds before it succumbed to its wounds)" Nah
Pucci

  • "Low 2-C with Made in Heaven" Yeah sure, but misleading, Low 2-C is via Universal Reset/Environmental Destruction. It's not as if he could kill someone with Low 2-C dura with that (Everyone doesn't get harmed, they are all fine)
Here's Johnny

Gyro

DinoDio

  • Body Control
  • Something like "Can command his dinos", it's not control but still, here
Wekapipo

  • Homing Attack
  • Weapon Mastery
Valentine

In Notable Attacks/Techniques: "Merging: When Valentine takes an individual and takes them to a parallel world, Valentine can cause them to meet their parallel selves. If they make contact or get too close to each other, they will begin to crumble and pull each other into one another, creating a Menger Sponge, and completely obliterating each other from existence."

This is wrong. Users get this literally and it was never said to be EE. When its said to take something out/from existence its use in the context of killing. Furthermore when Wekapipo died there was still blood.

Jesus

https://imgur.com/a/Inzdf8l

  • Was it him?
  • Should have a profile, like this.
 
Mine is bigger lol

I'm leaving a comment in yours right now.
 
I was thinking in summoning but he does it too manually, "Pseudo-Summoning" should be perfect.
 
For the infinite speed thing, I'm gonna literally just copy and paste my response from the last infinite speed thread and address anything new.

Diavolo erases time universally, which is true about any time stand. One thing to note is that it actually is not stated that GER didn't have its time erased, in fact, it is more likely that his time was erased but was able to move anyway. In fact, in that very sca, you can see the visual effect that happens when time is erased for you. That appearence of many selves is the visual appearence for how Diavolo, and even those that catch a glimps of erased time, view it. Here is another example of the many examples that come from one of his other fights. Here is one main thing, even if Diavolo maintained his own time while erasing. Also, don't take Diavolo's statements when it comes to King Crimson at face value, because that is how we ended up with the It Just Works fiasco. The ability will make negetive sense if you do. The same can be said for most time based abilities in JJBA if you do, like Diego's "this time is only my own" statement that make The World's ability sound more like time storage than time stop. Also Diavolo may be able to "move" in erased time, but that is more a biproduct of the ability and not some resistence feat.

Its actually better to think of it that he isn't "moving" in erased time at all, but more choosing what actions would have happened, since what is basically all moments of actions within erased time coexist temporarilty, but have no effect. You can literally see your future self, that exists at the same time as you, in the fall out of king crimson's time erasure. When GER sets Diavolo's time erasure to zero, for some reason, he falls under the effects of his own King Crimson (for some reason), with his selves at those various moments coexting. As we have previously established, GER was indeed under the effects of Erased time. He did, however manage to set it to 0 inspite of it. Thus, it would be infinite speed regardless.

Anyway, that was a bit ranty, let me summerise.

  • King Crimson does, indeed, erase time universally. Him saying that he still had time was likely either not literal or just flowery language.
  • Diavolo does not "move" in erased time in the literal sense
  • However, even if the above is not true, and King Crimson individually erases time for everything in the entire universe. Then GER still had its time erased, the visual effect prove that.
  • Thus, he still took actions while he was in a timeless void (even if it was or was not more personalized to be set to every objects and being in the universe), and would still qualify for infinite speed
To be even more brief, If King Crimson does apply to each individual thing, then GER still has infinite speed. If King Crimson instead applies to the entire world, then GER still has infinite speed.

Just incase someone has concerns about this:

You can resist having your time erased, but as is proven above, GER's time was erased, so that is no longer an option. You cannot resist not having time. This is not time stop, this is lacking time. You cannot resist lacking time any more than you can resist a timeless void

Now for the new stuff:

It should be nited that GER does not, on its own, attack at infinite speed. Giorno has to will it to attack. It could be argued that perhaps he does not attack at infinite speed because he is restricted to Giorno's reaction, but that is another issue. Most of your other stuff I cannot address until I actually see your scans which aren't working
 
I don't think you can just say nah to Bug-Eaten's dura and AP without proper reasoning.
 
@Iapitus Answering later, if not tomorrow.

@Sir Ovens Do I need to tho? This AP is based on hax and he wasn't durable enough to take what his dura mentions.
 
Most of your other stuff I'm gonna wait for your scans, but the Supernatural Luck for Mista comes from his back story. 3 different people were unloading their guns at him at point blank range, and he was able to walk up and take a gun from one of them, take their amo, load his gun, and fire back and return fire to kill them all without a single scratch on him. He got put in jail just cuz the court could not believe in his luck
 
I mean, people won't know what you're changing and why if you don't explain the what and why. Minor nit-pick, but I agree overall.
 
@Iapitus "Likely Supernatural Luck" should be fine now that I re-read it.

@Sir Ovens I only didn't explain 3 things that their descriptions themselves contradict. In fact I think we may have more JoJo profiles saying how a character was able to take something while showing the character being severely damaged or mutilated by it.
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
For the infinite speed thing, I'm gonna literally just copy and paste my response from the last infinite speed thread and address anything new.
Click to expand...
Many things there are not related to what I said; Diavolo does move in the E.time due to his ability, GER's feat is/should be infinite, and GER did had her time erased.

But it can still be just a resistance, or just an ability to move in the lack of time. Some characters in fiction can move without time and space without having infinite speed, that should be the case for GER. Her actions in comparison to other characters with finite speed are proof of it. That's most of my argument, +how she wasn't able to move initially.
 
She talks like a woman in games, and I don't like using "it" in beings who only don't have gender in the traditional sense.
 
Although I'm still very angry with that movie where Mewtwo had a female voice, it changed nothing but it was bullsh*t.
 
Eficiente said:
Many things there are not related to what I said; Diavolo does move in the E.time due to his ability, GER's feat is/should be infinite, and GER did had her time erased.

But it can still be just a resistance, or just an ability to move in the lack of time. Some characters in fiction can move without time and space without having infinite speed, that should be the case for GER. Her actions in comparison to other characters with finite speed are proof of it. That's most of my argument, +how she wasn't able to move initially.
Click to expand...
The point of my copy pasta ass post is that no matter which way you cut it, it still turn out to be infinite speed. If you feel like it isn't applicable to the post, you can ignore those parts i guess. Also nah, not in the technical sense. Diavolo doesn't exactly "move" in erased time at all, but for what you said it goes either way.

It can't be resistence, because you can't resist not having time, not any more than you can resist not having oxigen. Erasing time is not like time stop. If you can move in lack of time (not stopped time), then you can act wothout a time frame and that would be infinite speed (or instantaneous movement in some cases for hax, but it really comes out to the same). Unless you are gonna appeal to a false timeless or spaceless void, show me a case when there isn't some exception. I don't know what you mean when you say they are incomparison, could you explain that a bit more. What do you mean "how she wasn't able to move" everyone can move in some sense, but all their actions are coexistent and don't have a real effect.
 
As I said before, "Some characters in fiction can move without time and space without having infinite speed", such as Adam Warlock. Not havimg time and having the time stopped are, in a sense, equal as to how one shouldn't be able to resistence it, yet only the latter can be resisted but the other gives you infinite speed? No.

She only "moves at infinite speed" on the E.time, otherwise she moves at finite speed as I pointed out.

She and Giorno were unable to move, Diavolo says that no one but he should be able to do so (that "move"), only after "some time" GER moved.
 
Also the way you put time stop and time e. as different is wrong. In stop time you would also have to act wothout a time frame as it's stopped, which should also be ∞ speed ..but it's just resistence.
 
I get the feeling there was more context to the Adam warlock thing, like an outlier or something. And no, you should be able to resist time stop. Look at bravely default for that. King Crimson basically creates a timeless environment. You cannot "resist" a timeless environment. You can resist a stopped, but not erased environment. This is like saying that I resist not having oxygen. That's not a thing.

That remains to be seen. Fix your scans, then we will talk

But they can move. Literally everyone can move in erased time, but all the actions coexist and have no effects.
 
All the scans for the GER downgrade have been moved to imgur.

The comparisons of how one cannot resist the lack of time but can resist stopped time still don't make sense. I can resist not having oxygen as such as I resist having oxygen stopped in time, it's essentially the same. In both cases it's done because "lol fiction".

Ignoring how the ability seems to have change in how it visualmte works, when I say "move" I'm obviously referring to type of "move" that Diavolo does when he says "None but I, Diavolo, should be able to move within erased time!", GER wasn't moving at all before that.
 
Also resistance to Mind Manipulation for him and Jotaro since they have a corpse part which can nullify the effects of HAD's mind control
 
Eficiente said:
All the scans for the GER downgrade have been moved to imgur.
The comparisons of how one cannot resist the lack of time but can resist stopped time still don't make sense. I can resist not having oxygen as such as I resist having oxygen stopped in time, it's essentially the same. In both cases it's done because "lol fiction".

Ignoring how the ability seems to have change in how it visualmte works, when I say "move" I'm obviously referring to type of "move" that Diavolo does when he says "None but I, Diavolo, should be able to move within erased time!", GER wasn't moving at all before that.
Click to expand...
Alright, I'll look at it in a moment. But first, I'll respond to these.

I'm trying to properly find a metaphor that will explain why. I guess a better comparison would be the difference between Time Stop and Time Erasure is the difference between Vector Manip that freezes all Kinetic Vectors and the ability to "move" in an area where energy has been purged from or where energy does not exist. The ability to move with your vectors frozen or the ability to resist vector manip in general is different from the ability to not need energy to move. You can resist having your energy removed, or resist having your energy in some sense frozen, but you cannot resist simply not having energy. If your energy has indeed been purged from you and yet you can move energy, then don't have vectors or don't need them, which would be the equivolent to infinite speed in this metaphor. there is no such thing as resisting not having energy, because at that point you can move without energy either way. If you can keep up with somebody in stopped time without having time stop and not have resisting time stop, then that is infinite speed. Its basically the same thing. You cannot resist simply not having time

I sort of get what you mean, but not quite. Especially because the coexistence of all actions makes this strange
 
"Diavolo reacts to her its energy prolleccion here and here Diavolo states that he couldn't see the attack, but that he saw the forecast of a hole in his hand. Thing is, there should be no hole in his hand, the attack was going to Diavolo but he put his hand to block it, there should be no "I can just barely dodge his attacks!" as he says."

I see what you mean, but you have almost failed to account for epitaph. Epitaph, due to its absolute precognition of fate and the future, makes Diavolo basically unblitzable due to essentially aim dodging anything. Its very similar to how Kirei can keep up with Servants in combat despite not being able to see their actions, because he can read their intentions and knows where their attacks will land. Both of them essentially are always guaranteed to aim dodge an attack because they know where it will land. You can actually see in the panels that King Crimson and Diavolo raise their hand to block before GER fires the energy blast, GER raises its hand to fire, King Crimson raises its hand to block, and the energy attack is redirected into the background.

"similar to characters in fiction who can resist time stop only after being affected by it for a while, GER does nothing and doesn't move during the time erase for quite some time here

Obviously, time stop=/=time erase. Just making a comparison."

First off, the issue with that is that people can move in erased time. All of them can. Its simply that all their actions coexist and have no effect. It is meerly that Diavolo has "control" over his actions while the others do not. Giorno and GER sitting still, because that is the actions they would have done, means nothing. GER does not need to raise a finger to use its ability, so it makes no different either way.

"Diavolo had a prediction where he killed Giorno, specifically for being "a moment faster!" here, here, on the last page, GER even says that he was going to kill Giorno, but that she just causality nope that."

Cool, but that is because he is essentially moving in response to what he would do. it is of note from what we see of the predictions that Gio and GER have not moved at all to attack him physically. Diavolo seemingly punched him straight out of erased time, and Giorno would have stood still their any way. Also, the first of your scans aren't working

"GER doesn't muda muda Diavolo at infinite speed here."

The scan doesn't show that at all. First off, Giorno may be controlling him and essentially having him attack at a speed he can percieve. If you want to downgrade GER's offensive melee speed, due to being restricted by Gio's perception, and only have his defense be infinite, I may support that. Also, if you are refering to Diavolo taking a bunch of hits and Trish being like "woah, that guy is getting hit" that is probably because she reacted after the first barage, and then gio did the final hit in the following pannel. The panel orientation implied 1) GER barage 2) Mista standing still 3) Trish reacting 4) GER final hit, which as is standard fro Muda and ORA barages, is a few moments following the main barage. But there is no real way to know beyond reading our own into it
 
Haven't read the entire thread, but I do agree that giving GER Infinite speed just due to that isn't enough, given how we treat other void feats. This isn't any different. The supporting "evidences" are even worse in that regard.
 
Kira's "Soul Manipulation" should just be changed to Non-Physical Interaction, as it's never stated that he outright destroys the enemy's soul.

Also, people can tank Killer Queen's explosion when it's implanted on an object. With very large levels of damage, but they can.

Also, about people not wanting to dwongradeBug Eaten's dura: Jojo is very inconsistent with durability feats for Stand Users.
 
Just let me finish Part 4. I'm already very far into it, then I'll focus on Kira since some of his stuff seems a bit iffy to me.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
Haven't read the entire thread, but I do agree that giving GER Infinite speed just due to that isn't enough, given how we treat other void feats. This isn't any different. The supporting "evidences" are even worse in that regard.
Click to expand...
What do you mean by "that." GER doesn't have any void feats, and that is not where he gets his infinite speed from. Not all infinite speed feats must come from a void. Most of the times i use "timeless void" to describe KC's ability is it a metaphor because it becomes easier to grasp.
 
DMB 1 said:
Kira's "Soul Manipulation" should just be changed to Non-Physical Interaction, as it's never stated that he outright destroys the enemy's soul.

Also, people can tank Killer Queen's explosion when it's implanted on an object. With very large levels of damage, but they can.

Also, about people not wanting to dwongradeBug Eaten's dura: Jojo is very inconsistent with durability feats for Stand Users.
Click to expand...
There was already a thread about Kira
 
We already had the Kira soul destruction thread, as Chartale has mentioned. Whenever an individual that is killed by Kira is viewed from Reimi's corner, their souls are breaking apart and disappearing.
 
While on the topic of JoJo, remind me again, why is Weather Report's dura High 7-C with atmospheric shields without a clac?
 
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