Sonic revisions and some questions

Currently I've noticed that there has been an increase of Sonic the Hedgehog threads. I did ask questions but they were either ignored or shot down with a vague response. I didn't want to randomly derail any threads that are pretty active in there conversations, so I decided to make this one. In this thread I will like to discuss the scaling of the Sonic the Hedgehog universe, for the scaling is most confusing and contradictory. Inb4 you say variable tiers, outliers, 2-C divided by 2 isn't low 2-C, etc. Please hear me out and don't close this thread without me being able to defend my position. I'll go over the base forms quickly, then super forms then speed (and a Solaris thing). So without further ado, let's begin.


Base forms

In Sonic Lost World Eggman uses a generator to absorb earth's energy with a generator and puts that energy in the Eggrobo. The energy was calculated to be high 6-A and Sonic and co scale. There is a slight Problem with that rating though, the Eggrobo has enough energy to one shot Sonic even if he has rings. Base Black Doom needed the Eclipse Cannon to perform a high 6-A feat, Iblis is high 6-A even though 200 years later there are likely civilizations and working technology. Hell we don't even see anymore locations in the future. Ifrit wasn't even at full power when he was awakened and what planet did he scorch, can someone enlighten me on this? Literally everyone in the resistance was going to get OBLITERATED by Infinite's sun which was calced to be high 6-A. Those are just some things I wanted to point out. If there's a problem, we'll figure something out later.


Super forms

I will only be focused on the Hedgehog Trio and Blaze for now. Sonic and co are 2-C for Scaling to Solaris and the Eggwazard, but the problem is both feats literally contradict each other. The Eggwizard is only capable of destroying 2 space time continuums while Solaris can destroy a lot more. Why would Sonic and Blaze work together against Someone who's weaker to the villain prior to that? It's stated more than once that the chaos emeralds and the sol emeralds are inferior to the Power of the Stars. If both sets of emeralds are 2-C on it's own, why would Super Sonic need help, or why didn't both sets of emeralds destroy both space time continuum's instantly with twice as much power? It was a SLOW merging of both universes, and if I'm not mistaken that's high 3-A to low 2-C at best. Even Eggman's overall plan was to make one dimension with the sol emeralds alone and is completely blown away by the Power of the Stars because he himself said he never imagined such power, implying that each set of emeralds themselves are only universal+. Yes I know low 2-C and 2-C can't be quantifiably estimated through math but you do know that fiction doesn't follow our rules right? Both 2-C threats are literally treated as Characters who would slap those who dare use the chaos emeralds against them. The Time Eater on he other hand was dealt with no problem (other than the fact that two super forms were needed), there's even the fact that the chaos emeralds are likely comparable to the world rings (maybe). There was even a statement in Shadow the Hedgehog where Shadow said when he gets all seven chaos emeralds, he'll rule the universe, nothing more nothing less (he even knows what timelines and space times are). As for their low ends they Should be rated at least 5-A because it's redundant since they have a much higher rating.


Solaris

I think Solaris should be 2-B simply because of the maginary world. I remember asking why Sonic Shuffle was considered non canon and the response I got was "because it's literally not canon". Sonic Shuffle seems to fit in the storyline without contradicting events. So can someone please give me more reasons why it isn't considered canon on this wiki?


Conclusion

Ok so far the base forms are unknown (or unclear to be precise) until further notice. The weaker super forms should be specifically rated "at least 5-A likely far higher" for being far superior to the Negative energy of the chaos emeralds. The Hedgehog Trio and Blaze should be rated "at least 5-A likely low 2-C" with the full power of the positive energy of the chaos emeralds are capable of warping the entire fabric of space time, and is able to trade blows with the Time Eater.

BTW considering speed MFTL+ no immeasurable of infinite. The Time Eater has the ability to time travel and his warping arm attack is literally like Janemba but with more range. In the end I'll be ready to defend myself, and please don't Close this Thread if I'm not active for a while. Thank you.

I'll need some time getting my opinion in order, but variable tier does justify a few things. Imma be honest, I don't think we even know where the Chaos Emeralds stand in terms of power.

Well I don't really think it's a variable tier, but different levels of power. Simply put the lowest is 5-A and the highest should be low 2-C. Variable tiers is a no no for that in itself is inconsistent.

Three things I want to address first:

1) Infinite's sun is a higher degree of High 6-A than the other High 6-A feats.

2) Merging two universes is 2-C. The Power of the Stars, Egg Wizard's power source is above baseline 2-C anyways since it maintains the existence of various parallel dimensions including Sonic's and Blaze's.

3) No 5-A super forms. Even at their weakest, 7 Chaos Emeralds are superior to the Final Egg Blaster.

There's no reason for the chaos emeralds to be 4-A at the lowest. If they're reality warping objects that can be used for power and hax. Why wouldn't the lowest be 4-A when there are no 4-A feats for the emeralds. It's just an assumption because Eggman always wants the emeralds, but they have a higher tier so what's the point of keeping 4-A? The only way Sonic would be 2-C is from power scaling from enemies that are consistently superior to them. May I like to mention that in Sonic Rush Eggman says the full power of the emeralds can destroy the world referring to the universe. He even says when he acquires BOTH sets of emeralds he will make a new world.

1) Eggman was using the Final Egg Blaster to hunt for the Emeralds, so their power is obviously superior to it.

2) He would make a new universe by merging two universes together. Even then, just because Eggman stated that the "world" would be destroyed doesn't mean that it's limited to just that one universe when it's shown otherwise. Super Sonic also does have a direct 2-C feat of his own by restoring the multiple timelines Time Eater destroyed.

Hunting down the emeralds? Really?

He literally said that he was gonna make a whole new world beyond the two dimensions, nothing remotely implies that he was going to do that by merging them.

Multiple timelines? Then why do we rate the Time Eater as low 2-C and Super Sonic restoring time isn't a direct feat, it's a direct assumption.

Eggman was blown away by the power of the Stars and what statement says that it controls more parallel universes?

This makes no ******* sense. Solaris is superior to Eggwizard but somehow the Power of the Stars are stronger than a source that defeated Solaris? NANI?

Sonic's feat post-Time Eater is NOT 2-C. It's Low 2-C. At best.

1) Yeah, and it encompasses two universes which is 2-C.

2) Time Eater is Low 2-C because he was destroying one timeline at a time. Though I don't have an issue with 2-C Time Eater, the Low 2-C reasoning is fine so I won't contest that.

3) Solaris was defeated by three super forms, Egg Wizard by two.

You do realize that Each hedgehog was fighting their own version of Solaris right? So numbers don't matter.

It's the same Solaris. He has temporal omnipresence.

There's still the 5-A rating though.

And I already told you why 5-A is wrong.

5-A low end was accepted ages ago by most of the staff (heck, I wasn't even the original one who brought it up; it was Azzy), but I digress.

I swooped into that thread disagreeing with 5-A and it well...just kinda died off.

But the main focus isn't variable tiers.

I'd also like to mention that my points on base Sonic and 2-B Solaris weren't addressed (except Infinite's sun)

I'm neutral on 2-B Solaris but I agree Sonic Shuffle is canon.

And those base forms?

About the Eggrobo being able to "one-shot" Sonic? You don't even need to be stronger than someone to one-shot them.

Eh...I doubt Eggrobo's hitting pressure points on Sonic.

ShadowWarrior1999 said:

About the Eggrobo being able to "one-shot" Sonic? You don't even need to be stronger than someone to one-shot them.

Click to expand...

... Yes, you do, if it's trough raw AP.

Face, stomach, neck. Easy ways to one-shot someone without being stronger.

The Egg Robo is huge compared to Sonic, so it's most likely hitting him whole.

And yes, you need to be stronger than someone to some degree too knock out someone at the stomach or at the face, especially if the guy you are knocking out is fully on guard and aware of what's going on.

Sonic beat the Eggrobo anyways so it just seems to be nitpicking.

The Eggrobo throws a mini sun then it turns into a small black hole that kills Sonic instantly if he touches it.

Well black holes do ignore conventional dura

So does anyone agree with the OP?

Only thing I agree with is Sonic Shuffle being canon.

Anyone else?

Lots of wonky or straight up incorrect points in the OP. I'll type up a rebuttal in a sec.

Base Sonic stuff

The Eggrobo can only one shot Sonic with a certain attack. Sonic can withstand its blows and keep going as well as destroy the Eggrobo after an extended fight, so it's pretty obvious that Sonic scales.

Black Doom supposedly being incapable of doing a High 6-A should be considered an Inconsistency. Lesser enemies have been able to destroy the world (referring to the planet's surface).

Iblis' destruction of the world was stated to leave society in complete ruination so I don't know where you got that there are "likely civilizations and working technology".

For the Ifrit, see: https://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Chaotic_Inferno_Zone. This Zone takes place on the planet destroyed by the Ifrit. Also, it doesn't matter that Ifrit was defeated before he got the chance to get to his peak as even in his "base" state (which Sonic beat) he still destroyed a world.

The Phantom Ruby nearly obliterating Sonic and the entire Resistance is immediately contradicted afterward by Sonic defeated the Death Egg Robot, which was empowered by an "overclocked" Phantom Ruby that was stated to surpass Infinite.

Super form stuff
Super Sonic's power is variable so the Egg Wizard and Solaris having conflicting feats isn't inherently contradictory to anything.

The Chaos Emeralds/Sol Emeralds being inferior to the PoTS doesn't suddenly negate scaling. You can be inferior to a character but still scale to them if you're in league with them, which is evidently the case with Super Sonic and the Egg Wizard as Super Sonic fought and destroyed it.

Being half as strong as a 2-C isn't Low 2-C.

"Both 2-C threats are literally treated as Characters who would slap those who dare use the chaos emeralds against them" is contradicted by said 2-C being defeated by Chaos Emerald-empowered beings. Eggman expressing hubris that the PoTS would neg the Chaos/Sol Emeralds is just that: hubris.

Solaris
I personally believe Sonic Shuffle is canon so I'm neutral on this one.

Wasn't Zamasu Chan (back when was M+S=Greatness) wanting high end super forms to be downgraded to Low 2-C already debunked in an earlier thread? Why bring it up again?

Even I can't fight 2-C Super Sonic anymore, as much as I want to. It would literally just be the outlier argument.

Do I seriously have to point out these things? The chaos and sol emeralds we're merging the parallel worlds SLOWLY. The Eggmen even say that they'll make their own WORLD with BOTH sets of emeralds. Giving super forms variable tiers was a literal excuse for PIS, outliers and inconsistencies. If super forms are variable, why give would they work together to stop such strong threats? Why are parallel worlds now an impressive feat? How come the only direct feat Super Sonic has is low 2-C?

And as a side note Shadow already explained that Infinite's high 6-A dwarfs Sonic's consistent ones, thanks on the for the rest of the info though Zero.

And Yes Shadow I did attempt to make this downgrade before. However the points weren't so stable and it got closed before I could even respond...

Merging two universes is 2-C, the timeframe doesn't matter. A Low 2-C would not be able to merge two universes together. The Chaos Emeralds give Sonic enough power proportional to the enemy he's facing to beat them.

Seriously man, you already brought up Low 2-C and that was debunked.

"Grants power proportional to the enemy" needs help on some occasions. You also didn't debunk anything, I've stated over and over that both sets of emeralds were needed to merge both worlds and both were needed to create a separate world. The merging alone doesn't even happen under its own power. It's a disturbance in both space times because of their parallel properties. Hell even in the Sonic Boom tv show Eggman Nega causes a spacial distortion. Does that mean Eggman Nega is universal? Nope, not a god damn chance.

False. Egg Wizard uses the Power of the Stars, not the Chaos + Sol Emeralds. Also "needing help" is irrelevant when you still have to have 2-C AP to damage a 2-C.

Plus bad example with Sonic Boom. That was a paradox caused by the two Eggmans existing in the same universe.