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Persona 5 DOWNGRADES!

ProfessorLord

ProfessorLord

4,256
658
Nuh-uh, this aint it chief. We're adressing all this inconsistencies and non-sense.

The focus of this is going to be the palaces and whether or not they are able to be scaled to attack potency and thus tier, but there's a few other issues I have with the verse right now.

First thing - Palaces and their creations are not legitimate creation feats.

I hate to tell you this but it has to be done. Palaces are not valid creation feats. They lack the fundmental prerequisites to be considered as such. We don't have a timeframe for how long it takes to create a palace. It could have been pieced together over the course of a few years - a construction worker isn't 9-A because he built a house in 5 years. It needs to be reasonably instant for it to be valid. The truth is we don't exactly know how long a palace takes to form. We know that the distorted desires manifest as a shadow first and into a palace later on but we don't know exactly how long that takes. Assuming it is created instantly is wank.

Furthermore we don't have a means as to how it was created. This is important, because if I can build a house in 2 seconds with my super speed it would still not work as a creation feat. Why? Because my speed can't be correlated to my strength (at least, that's how we treat it in fiction since every single verse violates the conservation of energy). If I created the house in 2 seconds with my magic powers, then it stands to reason that attacking with my magic powers should scale with the previous creation feat; I'm repurposing the energy I used to built with for attacking in a logical way. Unless the palace was physically created by the shadow clapping their hands and having their magical influence suddenly create it, then it is not a valid feat.

Second thing - The shadows don't even create their own palace. Yaldabaoth creates it for them.

This is something that is confusing until I finally finished the game. It's clarified that palaces are not created by shadows but by the ruler of Mementos - Yaldabaoth. Shido says here that people with strong twisted desires are segregated and locked away in their own Palace, nothing about them creating it. They rule their palaces but they don't create them.(This is also stated on the SMT wikia.) This makes more sense then the shadows creating them. Since Mementos/Yalda was destroyed why would it have any effect on other peoples palaces? Maybe because, I dunno, he is the one creating them?

Overall these are not legit creation feats in any sense of the word.

Third thing - The main cast does not scale 1-1 with the palace rules/shadow counterparts.

If they did, they wouldn't need an entire group to bring them down. Many times do we see them struggling and getting knocked down by them in cutscenes. They need a team because they aren't as strong as their opponent. Have you ever tried just using Joker in a boss fight? You're going to reset the game many many times on normal mode.
 
And no, shadows don't sustain the palace. Yalda probably just closes it once they die, or makes their existance dependant on them being alive. Much easier assumption since he's the one who actually creates it for them.
 
"Palaces and their creations are not legitimate creation feats."

I agree for the most part (mostly the lack of timeframe thing). The rating still comes from the Shadows maintaining the Palaces themselves, and said palaces being destroyed once the Shadow is defeated. (Also yes I see your counter argument for this. I'll address it below.)

"The shadows don't even create their own palace. Yaldabaoth creates it for them."

Shido's quote is "... people are segregated from this peaceful world and locked away in their own Palace.", which says nothing about who created it. Yes, Yaldabaoth is the one who created Mementos as a whole to act as a medium for the Palaces themselves to be created, but they're still formed entirely through the ruler's distorted desires, meaning that they still actually are the ones creating them.

Also not that it matters, but the wiki doesn't flat out state who creates the palaces They do however imply heavily that it's the palace host who does it.

"The main cast does not scale 1-1 with the palace rules/shadow counterparts."

They don't have to scale 1-1 to be in the same tier. Simply being able to damage and defeat the boss is enough, and it's not like they severely struggled against any of the bosses except for Yaldabaoth anyways.

"And no, shadows don't sustain the palace. Yalda probably just closes it once they die, or makes their existance dependant on them being alive."

This not only requires the assumption that Yaldabaoth actively maintains the palaces in the first place, but also that he actually has some reason for wanting them closed. There's about as much proof of either of those as there is a timeframe for the palace's creation.
 
Shido's quote is "... people are segregated from this peaceful world and locked away in their own Palace.", which says nothing about who created it.

Yes and no, yes it doesn't say anything directly about who created it but no, being segregated and locked away implies someone else separating and locking you away in a room of your own... he can't lock you away in a room that doesn't exist so logically he must have made that room, not you. Otherwise it's not exactly being locked away if it's in your room.

Yes, the wiki does flate out state it: They reveal that Mementos spawns Palaces to isolate people that Yaldabaoth feels are too independent with their desires and might endanger the status quo-but also help to keep all those still within Mementos locked away by their own hands, as these people terrorize others into remaining "safe" within the Prison of Regression.

They don't have to scale 1-1 to be in the same tier. Simply being able to damage and defeat the boss is enough, and it's not like they severely struggled against any of the bosses except for Yaldabaoth anyways.

No it's not, the tier gap between the two can be as low as x6 or as large as x20. If it takes all six members of a team to defeat one boss, that tells me the boss is roughly 6x stronger than them, give or take. That can be the difference between the boss being Low 7-C and the thieves being 8-A.

This not only requires the assumption that Yaldabaoth actively maintains the palaces in the first place, but also that he actually has some reason for wanting them closed. There's about as much proof of either of those as there is a timeframe for the palace's creation.

It's an equal jump to them being maintained by the shadow, only Yaldabaoth created the palace for them. It's like asking who sustains the power in your bedroom, you, or the man who trapped you in there? Yes it could be you, but it makes more sense that if the man gave you the room that he's the one providing the energy for it.
 
Yaldabaoth made Mementos and the concept of Palaces, which yes, exist for the purpose of locking away an individual, but their creation is explicitly stated several times to be fueled by that individual's desires.

The wiki quote only confirms the reason why Palaces exist and their function. Yaldabaoth oversees this function, but doesn't need to actively do anything since the subject's desires and the mechanics of Mementos as a whole do it all for him. Heck, throughout the game, you see how the palace ruler's perception of events in the real world physically changes features of the palace. It's pretty blatant that it's reliant on the individual rather than Yaldabaoth himself.

No it's not, the tier gap between the two can be as low as x6 or as large as x20. If it takes all six members of a team to defeat one boss, that tells me the boss is roughly 6x stronger than them, give or take.

That's not how it works. Working in a team doesn't automatically multiply your power by X times. Yes, the canonically worked together to defeat the bosses, but they are each individually capable of harming them. There are plenty of far more logical assumptions for working together than needing extra firepower anyway.

It's an equal jump to them being maintained by the shadow, only Yaldabaoth created the palace for them.

There's far more evidence implying that the shadow maintains it than there is Yaldabaoth does as I've stated above, but to reiterate, the palace is entirely fueled and manipulated the host's perception/cognition, and it gets destroyed once the host no longer supplies these things. Yaldabaoth has no motive or reason to be the one behind these phenomenon, so it makes much more sense for it to be the palace ruler who's responsible.
 
I suppose, since they are build over time, and the palaces do not seem to affect other buildings aside from the one the target corrupts with their desires.
 
So your entire argument revolves around sustaining and fueling the palace, which you believe falls upon the shadow?

There is no such thing as a sustaining feat. It can't be correlated to AP like a creation feat can because its too convuluted. Even if we go off your sentiment it still is blatantly presumptious.

I need roughly 2500 calories to maintain body and muscle mass, Ed. Do you want to guess how much calories I am? Easily over 100k, Google it. That many calories converted into joules means creating me would be a 9-A feat, however sustaining me is only a 9-C feat. This is only going to be more exasperated when we work with larger numbers.

Fact of the matter is even sustaining a palace is not a valid feat. The energy needed to create >>>>> the energy to sustain. As such, sustaining a palace the size of a town would probably be small building level; my guess but we really can't know.
 
Or you can do another comparison. Let's say it takes 10 workers 24 hours to create an entire house. Assuming they all burn 2500 calories each it would mean they burnt 25000 calories over the course of 24 hours, that's 0.025 tons of energy used to create the house.

Sustaining the house would logically mean powering it entirely for a day. Your average family of four uses roughly 22kWh/day. That's 0.01 tons of energy throughout the day.

These aren't perfect 1-1 analogies but the point I'm trying to get across is that in no world should sustaining a palace = creating a palace.
 
If yall are just going to ghost me until this goes away then I suppose I'll see if an admins can evaluate the argument and get this applied.
 
I will say what I said before. The fact that the realm breaks down when the shadow dies means that said shadow is maintaining said realm. Maintaining a realm with your very existence is in fact an AP feat. They do in fact exist. Regardless of how long it took you to create it or who created it. Show me evidence that Yaldabaoth actually just shuts it down instead of the Shadow maintaining it. The shadow can still maintain the realm if someone else creates it, and seeing as it goes down once the shadow is defeated (not on the verge of defeat, but flat out defeated) it's actually a natural and normal assumpton that said shadow maintains the realm.

Also let's talk about this tiering thing. You realize how big the likes of 4-A is correct? It's a massive tier. So even if they don't scale one-to-one they'd still be 4-A.

I agree with Yaldabaoth creating palaces, but I disagree with them not substaining them.
 
These two examples don't even apply to the case since Hades and Vademon not only maintain their realms but also created them according to their profiles.

I have no idea how maintaining a realm can give you a tier.
 
Well the issue is that there is not time stamp given. Regardless, I am showing that maintaining realms can be used as justification for a tier which was the point.

I have messaged Matt due to me not having played P5 for an entire year.
 
Therefir said:
I have no idea how maintaining a realm can give you a tier.
Click to expand...
From what I understood, it's the fact that you are maintaining a realm with your very existence and are not being torn apart or destroyed. For example an 8-C couldn't maintain a Universe sized realm.
 
Maintaining something doesn't grant you a tier, but Palace rulers are the very source of those palaces. Well, apparently anyway, as the end of the game suggests they were locked in their palaces by Yaldy.
 
Palaces are formed through the ruler's desires. Yaldabaoth provides the setting for palaces to be formed, and hell, even if you want to say he "creates" them, it's still these desires that fuel that creation and gives the palace its form. This is shown just about every time something the target sees or experiences in the real world changes the nature of their palace.
 
That's what was explained at first, that palaces are created by twisted desires. It is true to an extent, someone with strong enough negative emotions will have a palace - they're not creating it though. Yaldaboth recognizes they now have ambition and as such "segregates" them away in their palace. (Note that Shido says palace owners are segregated away which implies someone separating them, nothing about the shadow willingly creating and locking themselves away. I would never say someone was segregated and separated if they willingly wanted to leave.)

Also you're pulling a hammy back pedaling Ed, you already said you agree for the most part when it comes to it not being a valid creation feat.

Maintaining a palace with your existence is not an AP feat, lol. It's conceptual reliance. Like I said, the energy to create a 6'0" athlete is nowhere close to the energy to sustain one... same with the energy to create a house and power it. Dragonmaster is pulling some weird logic out of his ass with no reasonable explanation, sorry for being blunt.
 
Thanks Matt, but it's not a valid creation feat even if we credit it to the shadow because no time frame or given means.

In all things and aspects of reality, the energy to create is much greater than the energy to sustain. Stop saying it does and give me logical reasoning why, I gave you my reasoning.
 
Prof makes sense here. I don't see how creation feats or maintaining a dimension with your existence would have a tier, especially since there is no way to calculate it or attach it to their ability to harm their opponent.

I wouldn't even call it environmental destruction, just hax with a decent range.
 
According to Morgana, palaces are literally to Palace Owners what Personas are to Persona users. So I do believe that it should scale to their AP, as the entire existence of their palace depends on the strength of their heart's distortion, much like a persona users persona's strength is based on the strength of their heart's resolve.
 
That doesn't explain how that is related to how they harm their opponents, unless you can link me times when Kamoshida is chucking his entire castle at the Phantom Theives.
 
Like I said it may be a form of conceptual reliance. Either way it's not able to be correlated to AP because of my previous reasons.

So shadows have a unreliable "creation" feat and a sustaining feat which can't be correlated to AP. I played and beat P5 now and nowhere was I ever given the impression that they would be on par with Superman. The final boss is likely 8-C from sheer size.
 
Yeah well Sera still hasn't given us any reasoning why sustaining a palace requires as much energy as creating it.

Morgana is pretty unsure about everything until he regains his memories. If he knew Yaldaboth I doubt he'd say Kamoshida owned his palace when he literally got "segregated" in there.
 
Putting that aside, I fail to see any sort of correlation between creation and AP to begin with.
 
ProfessorLord said:
I played and beat P5 now and nowhere was I ever given the impression that they would be on par with Superman. The final boss is likely 8-C from sheer size.
Click to expand...
This doesn't mean anything. They don't need to "appear to be on par with Superman" for them to be such a level. That's ridiculous.

Yaldabaoth is not 8-C. He created the entire Metaverse, he is stronger than Igor, and possibly Philemon. Igor is above the Vevlet Room attendants such as Elizabeth and Margaret who rofl stomp the P3 and P4 parties before the EoG. Yaldabaoth > Lavenza (even split her in two), who shouldn't be too much weaker than Elizabeth and Theodore, and her separate selves Caroline and Justice are top tiers themselves.
 
Yalda, potentially might be stronger. If they don't appear to be on par with someone of their tier chances are they aren't. It was from my own experience anyway.

Either way let's focus on banishing palace feats before we discuss top tier Yaldaboth and Satanael.
 
ProfessorLord said:
Also you're pulling a hammy back pedaling Ed, you already said you agree for the most part when it comes to it not being a valid creation feat.
Click to expand...
Yeah gonna go ahead and clear this up. I specifically said that I agreed with there being a lack of a timeframe. Not that I was against using the feat. I fully believe they're responsible for creation. I haven't contradicted myself on that stance.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Yaldabaoth was merging the Metaworld and the Human World together. Potentially this is a Low 2-C feat.
Click to expand...
Matthew Schroeder said:
Also I'm pretty sure there's a weapon in Persona 5 whose description says it can star-bust.
Click to expand...
Then we should probably use those or look for actual feats instead of insinuating that people can suddenly punch and attack with enough force to blast through galaxies because palaces are destroyed when the ruler's influence is removed.

Like, there's nothing connecting the palace to their ability to attack an opponent. The palaces just happen to be connected to the ruler; it's not part of some energy or ability they use to attack an opponent, nor is it being held with their physical strength.
 
I basically agree with what Sera said before.

Otherwise I assume we're going to suddenly disregard every creation feat lacking an explicitly shown practical application for combat.
 
We should disregard every creation feat that lacks an application for combat or destructive capacity, as at that point it doesn't fall under the definition of Attack Potency.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because we have being treating feats like this for AP for a while doesn't magically make the logic behind it sound. It's an appeal to tradition.
 
Then that's worth its own separate thread to change the way such feats are approached. If it gets accepted then I have zero problems applying it here.

But as it stands, the feat is legit.
 
I'll make a seperate thread in a couple of days, then.

Keep in mind creation isn't mentioned on either the Attack Potency page or the Tiering System page until you hit 5-B.

The feat is legit by standards we don't have written in our policies.
 
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