• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Higher-Dimensional Physical Characteristics

Status
Not open for further replies.

Sera_EX

She Who Dabbles in Fiction
VS Battles
Retired
Messages
6,104
Reaction score
5,106
This has actually been a long time in the making. I've had this discussion with Matt several months ago (like early 2018), I think we should properly differentiate the two different kinds of HD (Higher-Dimensional) characters in a more appropriate manner than just a category. For the purpose of this thread I'll be using 5-D as an example. There is a difference in ability between a 5-dimensional being and a 3-dimensional being with 5-dimensional power. The Tier System clearly states that without some form of hax, a lower-dimensional creature cannot interact with a higher-dimensional one. Likewise a higher-dimensional one cannot interact with a lower-dimensional creature (you can't actually interact with a 2D drawing), but what they ca do is affect the higher-dimensional construct it exists on. That's the bare basics of the upper levels of the system.

We all know this, so what should change? Well I believe we need a page for higher-dimensional physical characteristics. For those who are thinking "Why have a power/ability page for something listed as AP/Dura?" Well, we do the same thing for superhumans. Anything Tier 9 and above has superhuman physical characteristics listed in their abilities section. The other reason is, like I said, not every High 2-A is a 5-dimensional being, and more commonly not every Low 2-C or 2-C is a 4-dimensional being. Goku and Jiren are not 4-dimensional beings (or higher) like those guys over at G+ will have you believe, they do however have 4-D power. The difference between them and an actual 4-D character is their physical characteristics and thus how they perceive dimensions of space.

The best option in my opinion is to change Higher-Dimensional Manipulation into Higher-Dimensional Physical Characteristics/Higher-Dimensional Existence. HD Manipulation seems a bit redundant when it only means "manipulation of higher-dimensions" which for one is just a higher form of space and/or spacetime manipulation, and destroying a higher-dimensional space doesn't warrant a power, but a power level such as "low complex multiverse level". That surely doesn't mean every single Low 1-C or even a handful can manipulate all of 6-dimensional reality.

Also, this affects 1-As as well, as actual beyond-dimensional beings by their very nature are immune to spacetime manipulation, as the concept doesn't apply them, and thus by listing in their powers/abilities section that they have a beyond-dimensional/hyperdimensional/extra-dimensional existence, that automatically shows they have a resistance to anything in the realms of space and time. However someone with 1-A power or hax (like Reinhard) does not have those immunities/resistances as evidence by the difference in status between his pre-Hadou God and post-Hadou god selves.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting a massive revision, that'd be unnecessary with current resources, but it's something that can be slowly integrated as time progresses, should it be accepted.

TL;DR: Change Higher-Dimensional Manipulation to Higher-Dimensional Physical Characteristics or Existence to properly differentiate higher-dimensional beings from lower-dimensional beings with higher-dimensional power, instead of just slapping a category onto the former.
 
I said that in the original post.
 
Yes. Any 4D being or higher would automatically be acausal due to transcending the universe's laws and being able to see past, present, and future simultaneously.
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Yes. Any 4D being or higher would automatically be acausal due to transcending the universe's laws and being able to see past, present, and future simultaneously.
unles the 4th dimension is spatial tho, it's very rare but it can happen
 
Our current rules state that 5-Ds have Immeasurable speed, and Immeasurables must be Acausal so yeah.
 
If all immeasurables are acausal.

Then shouldn't Archie Sonic super forms be acausal due to being immeasurable, even though they're 3D with 4D power?
 
@Sera

I am fine with a "Higher-Dimensional Existence" powers & abilities page, but do not think that we should get rid of "Higher-Dimensional Manipulation".

As you stated, there are 3-D characters with higher-dimensional power, and they also need this clearly defined within their profile pages.

In addition, this might let us avoid updating all of the profiles that currently link to the page.

@Kepekley23

Actually, our current rules do not state that spatially higher-dimensional characters automatically have the ability to instantly reach anywhere in space and time through speed alone. It is rightly treated as a separate ability.
 
All immeasurables are not acausal. Who on Earth told you that? 5-Ds also don't have immeasurable speed from the jump. We already discussed how being higher-dimensional =/= immeasurable speed.
 
@Sera

It is mathematically incorrect, yes.
 
@Ant

It's fine if you want to keep Higher-Dimensional Manipulation. Also, should we include beyond-dimensional existences on the same page or make it separate? I know ACF has two separate pages for them. One's called higher-dimensional existence and the other is extradimensional existence.
 
Sera Loveheart said:
All immeasurables are not acausal. Who on Earth told you that? 5-Ds also don't have immeasurable speed from the jump. We already discussed how being higher-dimensional =/= immeasurable speed.
Well, I would've thought immeasurables would be acasual as they can attack in past, present, and future, otherwise they would get paradoxed by going into different time periods.

That's true, higher-dimensional =/= immeasurable speed. Case in point.
 
@Sera Loveheart

Incorrect. Acausality mostly means Type 1 these days, and since Immeasurables are able to attac through time and rewrite history with every attack they need to be acausal to fight.
 
@Sera

A separate "Beyond-Dimensional Existence" page would probably be fine.

However, somebody competent would need to write it, and some administrators would need to be willing to update all the 1-A and above pages accordingly.

@Kepekley23

Which page do you refer to? I think that our Speed page already states the requirements for immeasurable speed.
 
@Shadow

It's their speed alone and remember the feat of attacking in the past, present, and future simultaneously is a higher degree of immeasurable rather than baseline. Take The Flash for example, he's Immeasurable via speed-induced time travel but isn't acausal.
 
The Flash is an anomaly in the set as that's not his normal level of speed and it literally overloads him. But general rule of thumb is that Immeasurable means Type 1 Acausal as they'd constantly rewrite past events with their attack and would be erased otherwise.
 
Also, most physicists seem to agree that a hypothetical 5th dimension would be most likely a chronal dimension. More than one time dimension = Immeasurable.
 
@Kep

Yes, that's right, but has Acausality been classified into two types? Forgive my memory but I only remember Time Paradox Immunity being accepted and then disaproved. I try to only go with things if they've been accepted in a thread and implemented, and so far acausality seems the same.
 
So we are getting a Higher-Dimensional Interaction and Beyond-Dimensional Interaction page to identify the difference between higher/beyond dimensional entities and those with only the raw AP of such a level?

Neat, that will be very helpful in determining proper matches. This makes sense.

I agree.
 
Also, everyone okay with outerversal beings being immume to space-time manipulation? My only gripe is we have the likes of Ren Fuji (Tenma Yatou) freezing time where no concept of time exists and there's bound to be examples of space manipilation on a 1-A level, as reductive as that sounds.
 
Antvasima said:
@Kepekley23

Actually, our current rules do not state that spatially higher-dimensional characters automatically have the ability to instantly reach anywhere in space and time through speed alone. It is rightly treated as a separate ability.
Why wouldn't it? Movement within a higher dimension means you're crossing distances unfathomable to beings moving in lesser dimensions.
 
Sera Loveheart said:
@Shadow

It's their speed alone and remember the feat of attacking in the past, present, and future simultaneously is a higher degree of immeasurable rather than baseline. Take The Flash for example, he's Immeasurable via speed-induced time travel but isn't acausal.
That's true for the Flash, his immeasurable isn't combat applicable. I was referring to Archie Sonic super forms who have immeasurable speed.
 
> Which page do you refer to? I think that our Speed page already states the requirements for immeasurable speed.

@Ant As the Speed page says, two or more time dimensions qualifies for Immeasurable.
 
Sera Loveheart said:
Also, everyone okay with outerversal beings being immume to space-time manipulation? My only gripe is we have the likes of Ren Fuji (Tenma Yatou) freezing time where no concept of time exists and there's bound to be examples of space manipilation on a 1-A level, as reductive as that sounds.
I mean we have bois that soulhax souless beings so...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top