Bleach: AP = Durability = Reiatsu

[Theglassman12]

umm, no it doesn't. He was on the ground, barely able to get up after that blast, and was only able to use his last trump card when Aizen got cocky enough to get close enough for Yama to grab him. Everything else seems legit. That particular part I don't see as proof of his durability being greater than AP when he was almost down for the count after that explosion.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

You realize that's not Yama's regular AP? That's why I keep saying it's charged and amped. Yama can't use such AP in a fight unless he was given prep to amp Ennetsu Jigoku. A singular uncharged Ennetsu Jigoku was no-sold by Yama though, I even included it at the top.

 

[Theglassman12]

and said charged and amp attack took him out, with him barely able to move.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I think the point is he survived it,while being battle damaged already.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

The point is his base durability was greater than his charged and amped Shikai AP.

Yama's base AP is drastically lower than that since it would not be charged nor amped, yet his durability is above that.

Thus, durability =/= AP.

 

[Dr.Fix]

I went over this already. Yamamoto explicitly said the charged attack would take him out. Either the Wonder bomb was weaker or more likely he suppressed it. Either way its not valid. Furthermore being taken out by an attack is not proof of greater durability, its quite the other way around.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

You had attempted to go over it, but then you gave up and never responded to me here.

And as I have shown, the attack didn't take him out. On top of it, this is base Yama's durability against his Shikai's charged attack. The fact that it's charged to increase AP while durability was not increased, yet his durability held against it shows his Durability was superior to his AP.

It disproves the notion of Dura = AP as I have shown through scans and proven.

 

[Dbknowitall]

This whole AP is Dura thing was ret@rded af to begin with, it literally ignores every single fodder ever hurting a superior character

Thats the thing they cant, vice captains cannot injure captains as seen with ichigo uring SS fight agaisnt kenpachi, kenpachi passive leaking reitsu was more than enough to offset ichigo own power without even upping the power for defense. even byakuya vs renji proved that.

the only way for a weaker character in bleach to hurt a higher one is to completely catch them of guard and to make sure when you do catch them off guard they arent using any reitsu/spirit power to completely cover themselves in defense and even then at most is paper cuts or superficial cuts like when ichigo directly attack aizen FKT or ichigo bankai attack on ulquiorra base.

this is why Durabiltiy and AP are identical for bleach because the power source is being used for the same purpose, its used to attack, and used for defense so naturally they would be identical, the shikai and bankai releases are different, most of them would increase 1 ability take for example byakuya blades, they dont attach to his body so his physical strength or durability dont increase unless he uses senbonzakura for defense and atack, while someone like kenpachi which changes his sword is directly affecting his attack power same for Renji and ikkau because their swords attach to them, while others like Toshiro are similar to byakuya, in toshiro case his strength or durability dont increase unless he uses the ice for those scenarios

example would be. toshiro base = 1, with shikai then its 2 but only the ice abilities, his stats are still 1.

the arrancar releases are completely different, they merely transform them back to their original body which is most cases is a complete trasnformation,

 

[Dbknowitall]

You had attempted to go over it, but then you gave up and never responded to me here.And as I have shown, the attack didn't take him out. On top of it, this is base Yama's durability against his Shikai's charged attack. The fact that it's charged to increase AP while durability was not increased, yet his durability held against it shows his Durability was superior to his AP.
It disproves the notion of Dura = AP as I have shown through scans and proven.

yamamoto was severely injured by his shikai, think of it like this, if someone identical to you in strength punches you in the face, you wont die you would be injured but also not severely.

now imagine someone several times stronger than you punching you in the face, you would be send to the hospital with most likely broken bones but even then you wont die.

even in extreme cases throw yourself out a window from the 6th floor and you would also have a chance to survive, injuring someone and killing them are two extremes the latter takes much more to do while the others can be very easy in certain cases.

any character can take much more damage than what they can put out this is also true in real life, i can get hit by a car and not die which is way more force than what i can put out by myself by dozens of times

 

[Damage3245]

> Thats the thing they cant, vice captains cannot injure captains as seen with ichigo uring SS fight agaisnt kenpachi, kenpachi passive leaking reitsu was more than enough to offset ichigo own power without even upping the power for defense. even byakuya vs renji proved that.

Doesn't that just mean that Kenpachi's durability > Ichigo's AP?

 

[Danny1112]

I agree with @Dbknowitall

 

[Zzsax]

Honestly this is a case by case basis...but I think in most cases reiatsu = AP = Durability.and this is especially true in the bleach verse.

Each time we see characters get a power up in their reiatsu, they always get a durability and AP boost e.g

• ichigo transformations

• arrancar transformations

• Aizen transformations

• Royal guard traning team

• Ginjo and fullbringers.

• Nnoitra tanking 2x his cero

• Yamamoto's bankai,reiatsu shield/AP

Then there are some few cases,where only AP is enhanced,but not durability or vice versa,although these are ussualy via special techniques meant to enhance AP,.with the mechanics of bleach,they could also pull out a defensive special technique,on that same level with that level of reiatsu..

Hence you see situations where characters use barehands to no sell attacks,but when someone uses a special attack technique,you can't no sell them with bare durability,you might have to pull raise your defense too with your reiatsu,or a special defensive technique,or pull out your sword to guard.

For example Byakuya's sebonzakura can output the same amount of AP and durability depending on the technique used.


All said,its a case by case basis but the rule stands in most cases,according to reiatsu mechanics of the verse.Reiatsu is a battery which powers AP and durability,depending on your technique.

 

[Zzsax]

> Thats the thing they cant, vice captains cannot injure captains as seen with ichigo uring SS fight agaisnt kenpachi, kenpachi passive leaking reitsu was more than enough to offset ichigo own power without even upping the power for defense. even byakuya vs renji proved that.

Doesn't that just mean that Kenpachi's durability > Ichigo's AP?

Yeah,because Kenpachi reiatsu > ichigo reiatsu

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Honestly this is a case by case basis...but I think in most cases reiatsu = AP = Durability.and this is especially true in the bleach verse.

Nothing of what you said proved your point since you provided no evidence while I have several pieces of evidence that disprove Reiatsu = AP + Durability. You would need to debunk my points and provide evidence to the contrary.

 

[Zzsax]

@Imade

There are several and I mentioned but a few,i literally listed them, and @dbknowitail reasoning also clears my points up,take a look at his comment..

Also I agreed the reiatsu=AP=durability,differs in some case but it's largely true in almost all cases..

Also I think you are focusing too much on physical durability and not durability of defense techniques,which also counts as durability..especially for those whose transformation Doesn't affect their physicals but their techniques.

Take the Vizards for example..the Vizard vice captain(forgot her name)was stomping wondeweiss left and right,with mask on,and then the mask comes off and she is one shotted,..why?the visored mask temporarily raises reiatsu and by extension AP and durability.

 

[Damage3245]

I can't really remember Wonderweiss landing a hit on her before she lost her mask.

 

[Danny1112]

I can't really remember Wonderweiss landing a hit on her before she lost her mask.

Because she was wearing it from the beginning they met.

 

[Zzsax]

I can't really remember Wonderweiss landing a hit on her before she lost her mask.

Wondeweiss could barely land a hit,as he was outclassed by the VC in all department,however he did land an attack and mashiro was knocked back several city blocks by wondeweiss,with no damage,but with mask off, she almost lost half her face to a knuckle punch.

 

[Damage3245]

Because she was wearing it from the beginning they met.

Okay? That doesn't disprove my point that she wasn't one-shotted just because she lost her mask. She was one-shot because Wonderweiss finally got a solid hit in on her.

 

[Konaguna]

I'm surprised no one as brought up Aizen yet.

the man had likely the highest reaitsu back in fake karakura, so how Ichigo, Gin, Urahara or Yoruichi damaged him when they most certainly had weaker Reiatsu was questionable. He should have been spotless

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

@Imade
There are several and I mentioned but a few,i literally listed them, and @dbknowitail reasoning also clears my points up,take a look at his comment..

And no scans to back up your claims nor reasonings to debunk my evidence. Also, Hollowfying raises AP, Durability, Speed and Reiatsu, we are told this in the MASKED Databook, we aren't told that it is done equally though. You have yet to provide any sort of evidence that states AP = Durability = Reiatsu.

 

[Zzsax]

@konaguna

Damaged??like one shotted,gravely injured or just gave him superficial scratches.i think the answer is obvious and settles that.

 

[Konaguna]

@konaguna

Damaged??like one shotted,gravely injured or just gave him superficial scratches.i think the answer is obvious and settles that.

What are you mumbling about? They clearly damaged him, Ichigo put a large scar on his torso, Gin opened up his chest wide open, Urahara blasted him badly.

And no one has the Reiatsu aizen has, I favor the OP this time

 

[Danny1112]

@konaguna

Damaged??like one shotted,gravely injured or just gave him superficial scratches.i think the answer is obvious and settles that.

What are you mumbling about? They clearly damaged him, Ichigo put a large scar on his torso, Gin opened up his chest wide open, Urahara blasted him badly.

And no one has the Reiatsu aizen has, I favor the OP this time

Lol wut,gin went through aizen because aizen let him,aizen even says this,that he was going to see what gin would come up with,but it was a shame as he thought piercing a sword was the only thing gin could come up with,then that's were gin uses his hax,it's the hax that made the hole not the blast lol,the ichigo cutting aizen was based on aizen letting his guard down as he was thinking about Yamamoto at that time,he later on after getting pierced through tanked that same attack from ichigo fully aware this time.

 

[Danny1112]

I would like to say,most of this is just being complicated right now,most of this scans you provided shouldn't be on the removal of DC=dura in bleach,probably they should be looked out on what mostly really happened, basically what am saying is,this doesn't affect everybody because it doesn't make sense,in bleach they release their spirit energy to fight,it wouldn't make sense for their released spirit energy not to be equal with their inner spirit energy.

 

[Warren_Valion]

To give my two cents.

I feel that most of these examples boil down to two different things:

1. Character Specific Abilities

The reason to me that the Ap =/= Durability in some cases is because of a specific ability that the shinigami has with their Zanpakuto, not that inherently Ap =/= Durability.

Take Byakuya for example, his strongest ability is to forsake the boost in strength of all of his stats and solely focus on his offensive power. That sounds like an ability specific to him and his Zanpakuto, not as an example for all Shinigami and their Zanpakutos.

2. PIS.

Remember how Aizen transcended Shinigami and to his own words ascended beyond their ability to injure him, yet he still almost died to Gin, a Shinigami? Or remember how Aizen couldn't sense any Reiatsu from Dangai Ichigo in the same manner that Shinigami couldn't sense any Reiatsu from Aizen (except Tastuki for some reason), inferring that Ichigo transcended to a level beyond Aizen and thus shouldn't be affected by him, yet he was.

It's these moments that conflict with the story foretold, a plothole and that's what I believe it to be.

Yamamoto surviving his own explosion in base sounds the same way to me. Shikai Yamamoto said that he and every other Captain would die in his ability, he even warned Ichigo to GTFO, so base Yamamoto surviving it seems just completely unbelievable to me.

It does not seem to me to be the proof that Ap =/= Durability as you say, but as a showcase of Kubo wanting to write out Yamamoto from the arc.

 

[Danny1112]

The gin stuff was already explained tho,aizen told gin that he was the one who let his guard down,as he knew that gin would try to kill him,so he purposely let down his spirit energy.

 

[Damage3245]

Aizen said he was curious to see what manner of assassination attempt Gin would use.

He didn't say anything about lowering his spirit energy.

 

[Danny1112]

@i agree on most part with warren,most of this feat was mostly based on pis.

 

[Danny1112]

Aizen said he was curious to see what manner of assassination attempt Gin would use.
He didn't say anything about lowering his spirit energy.

Lol,technically you didn't read that scene well,gin uses his sword and pierces through aizen,then gin begins blabbering about how he planned to kill aizen,then aizen smiles and said he already knew and made a sign of disappointment on the fact gin pierced him,prompting that he allowed it to happen.

 

[Danny1112]

It's just like saying I want to test how painful a bullet is,for me to test that I would have to remove my armour's for that to happen.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

To give my two cents.
I feel that most of these examples boil down to two different things:

1. Character Specific Abilities

2. PIS.

The fact that Character Specific Abilities (which are all based on Reiatsu) change one singular stat and not the other already disproves the notion that Reiatsu = AP = Durability. Their Reiatsu is increasing and only one stat is being increased, thus AP = Durability.

You can't claim PIS for something that wasn't PIS. Base Yama surviving his amped Shikai attack is a feat as there is no other feat from him that would say it's PIS or that the plot needed him to survive.

Dangai Ichigo having AP higher than Durability wasn't even addressed by you. Hogyoku Aizen having Durability higher than AP was also ignored.

 

[Dr.Fix]

You had attempted to go over it, but then you gave up and never responded to me here.
And as I have shown, the attack didn't take him out. On top of it, this is base Yama's durability against his Shikai's charged attack. The fact that it's charged to increase AP while durability was not increased, yet his durability held against it shows his Durability was superior to his AP.

It disproves the notion of Dura = AP as I have shown through scans and proven.

I didn't respond because you posted nothing I haven't already responded to. I am not in the habit of encouraging that kind of behavior on my best of days.

@ZZsaxx makes some good points. Even if he hasn't provided the scans I at least know what events in the manga he is refering to.

 

[Warren_Valion]

The fact that Character Specific Abilities (which are all based on Reiatsu) change one singular stat and not the other already disproves the notion that Reiatsu = AP = Durability. Their Reiatsu is increasing and only one stat is being increased, thus AP = Durability.

You can't claim PIS for something that wasn't PIS. Base Yama surviving his amped Shikai attack is a feat as there is no other feat from him that would say it's PIS or that the plot needed him to survive.

Dangai Ichigo having AP higher than Durability wasn't even addressed by you. Hogyoku Aizen having Durability higher than AP was also ignored.

1.

Just because someone has an ability which is based on their Reiatsu doesn't mean it applies to every character with Reiatsu

Like Aizen's Absolute Hypnosis is performed using his Reiatsu, but that is an ability unique to him and his Zanpakuto.

Just because other people have Reiatsu, doesn't mean they can do things other people can with Reiatsu.

This is a harder Magic System, not a Soft one.

Character 'Specific' Abilities are character specific.

Senbonzakura Kageysohi has the specific ability of Senkei. It has the specific ability to be able to abandon the defensive boost that Byakuya gets from using his Bankai to empower his offensive strength to kill the enemy.

Same with Ikkaku's Bankai to an even bigger extreme, his Bankai's special ability is to solely increase his offensive abilities, forsaking other poteinital boosts.

That doesn't mean that most Shinigami's don't get an equal increase in both AP and durability. A few exceptions because of specific Shikai's and Bankai's don't represent everyone in the entire franchise.


2.

How was Yamamoto surviving an attack point-blank that he said would kill him, in a stronger form, and everyone else not PIS?

And I did address it:

"Or remember how Aizen couldn't sense any Reiatsu from Dangai Ichigo in the same manner that Shinigami couldn't sense any Reiatsu from Aizen (except Tastuki for some reason), inferring that Ichigo transcended to a level beyond Aizen and thus shouldn't be affected by him, yet he was."

Dangai Ichigo was on another level of "transcendence" from Aizen and should have not been affected by a lower being's (Aizen's) attacks from the logic of the series. So yeah, Aizen hurting Ichigo makes no sense with the logic that Aizen about transcendence.

 

[Antvasima]

You should probably ask Soldier Blue to comment here.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

@Warren

1.

The entire argument that Reiatsu = AP = Durability is based on the fact of Reiatsu levels. No matter your Reiatsu your AP is equal to your Durability. The fact that there are methods to raising Reiatsu and AP is not equal to Durability despite those raises disproves this entire notion.

Shikai, Bankai and some Character Specific Abilities all raise Reiatsu yet will only raise one stat.

Not once has anyone arguing for AP = Durability provided a statement nor scan that supports that notion.

2.

Yamamoto surviving an attack that he said would kill him is not PIS, it means Yama was wrong. PIS means the plot relied on it. The plot did not rely on Yama surviving, the plot needed Yama to be removed from the scene, Yama dying would have had the same result of removing him from the scene.

You also seem to be misunderstanding Aizen's words on "transcendence" as it does not mean actual Wiki definition of transcendence as no one in Bleach transcends to another dimension.

Aizen couldn't hurt Dangai Ichigo in his Butterfly Aizen form; however, after his upgrade to Monster Aizen then he could.

@Antvasima

Soldier has known about this thread since I made it, he even Kudos it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. It is best if he gives a public confirmation that he agrees though.

 

[AppleLord]

"Two characters can occupy the same tier and still be worlds apart. If we didn't accept this every verse on here woud suffer immeasurably and to single out Bleach with special treatment would earn their ire.

I agree with this quote.

Every single fodder harming another character has a logical explination in the manga.

• Nanao used a "special" sword that cannot harm anyone if they are not a "God" and it uses hax that repels the opponents own attack backwards like a mirror.

• Byakuya's sword defense is about how his Senbonzakura is used like Gaara's sand to shield himself, not really talking about durability. Byakuya can't used that technique in his Bankai's true form because all of his swords become a dome to trap the enemy inside and that's why he ignores all defense because he can't block attacks like he used to. There's not a single panel that says that it has to do with Byakuya's reiatsu.

• Nice downplayed. Ichigo not harming Kenpachi was because he was afraid, and was lowering his own reiatsu as a result. Next page he raised his reiatsu and hurt Kenpachi.

• Aizen is just negating Soifon power like old good DBZ style of Ki negating hax. We know this is Aizen because Ichigo remember the exact moment when Aizen use KS and this panel was show again in the last arc. Don't bring any theories of Aizen been Momo, Aizen blocked her attack like the manga panel showed.

Durability depends on their reiatsu as we saw with multiple races.

• Shinigami = reiatsu to protect their skin. (I forgot the name the manga gave it.)

• Arrancar = reiatsu to activate Hierro to protect their skin.

• Quincy = Blut Vene reiatsu inside their veins to protect their skin.

All 3 races use reiatsu for their durability.


This thread is debunked.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

This needs to finished.

 

[Sekkonds.]

Why would u even bother?

I thought most characters profiles has equalised durability with AP even if they don't have any durability feats