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Dark Souls Revision........ Hooray...........Sigh.

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ShiroyashaGinSan

ShiroyashaGinSan

VS Battles
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DAMN YOU UNHOLY. DAMN YOU FOR MAKING ME MAKE THIS THREAD.

https://darksouls3.wiki.fextralife.com/Ludleth+of+Courland

My main argument against the downgrade was that Ludleth stated the whole transposition thing which basically extract the power from the one's soul using a Kiln. It is obviously an AP feat and Cursed Rotten Greatwood searching it for power source by using the Kiln inside of him to extract their souls converting to power. But I made one fatal mistake about it.

It needs the kiln to convert it to power. While your spell, item, weapons etc comes from extraction of one's soul and converting it to power, it undergoes a process that cannot do in combat, or can extract it from the one's soul during combat. And the Kiln of the First Flame comes into play. While it is an AP feat, it needed the help of the Kiln to convert the energy he needed to lit the flame again. It needed preparation and right resources to pull it off and it shouldn't scale to their normal AP. The melted iron can burn you but the solid one cannot do that.

Edit: Okay, I made a mistake, again. If the Kiln actually provided the power after they gave their souls, then their hollowed selves may be stronger than when they are Lords of Sunlight depending if they are affected by the Kiln or not. If this is true, Gwyn and anybody scales to his High 4-C tier should be downgraded to 6-B, and anybody who should scale to him when he has his soul will not get an upgrade. Other's scaling shall be downgraded to 6-B as well.

Gwyn's High 4-C tier should be downgraded to 6-B.

Bearer of the Curse should be downgraded to 6-B. Lighting the flame doesn't count.

The Abyss Watchers, Yhorm the Giant and Aldrich, Devourer of Gods should be downgraded to 6-B. They kinda got their souls back and lost their power from the kiln just like Ludleth.

Slave Knight Gael's High 4-C tier should be downgraded to 6-B.
 
The Everlasting said:
I don't really understand the argument here.
Click to expand...
My argument is that they can't produce an energy output needed to lit the sun without some prep and outside help.
 
They got that power to maintain it from the kiln. They just had the energy that strong to lit the flame that long.
 
Hmm I can buy this if it's actually outside assistance from the Kiln allowing them to maintain the Flame. I assume we'll be using AP required to light the sun to quantify their tier.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
The Lords maintain it with their own power
Click to expand...
show scans or Neck it

What they hold is irrelevant to what they can output, that's where the kiln helps them. It converts it into energy required to sustain it, alone they don't got shit.
 
I made a mistake. I edited the OP. We need to discuss if Gwyn in the final boss was amped by Kiln. And disclaimer, 4-B God tiers will remain. LoC has all of the power comes from all LoCs before.
 
Oh i see, i doubt it since he was at that point a hollow (Badum tss) shell of his former self with nothing left to do and was unable to hold together the First Flame any longer (It's why someone needed to get it anyway)
 
Being unable to hold himself doesn't mean he get weaker though. Probably that is because he was running out of energy, but he has still the AP if he is amped. If somebody prove that they don't, 4-C rating will be erased out of Existence btw.
 
Literally nothing of the pages you guys posted implies that at all. The energy still comes from the character himself.
 
@Schroeder

Have you ever heard of verse consistency? having Star busting characters that can't solo country busting fodders doesn't make sense, that's cause it's an outlier. The energy they have has never shown to do anything on that level, that's why as a whole it's an outlier.

Furthermore you constantly evade all my scan demands. I played all 3 games and nothing ever implies them having AP of this caliber, they have at best town level feats and even those are barely on the level.

First show scans of the sun being the first flame or show scans of them powering the sun directly, then we can maybe discuss this.

If you can't provide those then neck it.
 
The argument for this downgrade relies on a lot of on unprovable assumptions. First Ludleth can only use transposition with a Transposing Kiln and not just any kiln, so you would have to prove that the Kiln of The First Flame is a transposing kiln. Other than both having kiln in their names, there is literally no eveidence that the Kiln of The First Flame is a transposing kiln or works like one.

Second Ludleth can only use a transposing kiln because he knew the forbidden art of transposition, something he had to learn. So even if the Kiln of The First Flame was a transposing kiln you would have to prove that Gwyn, The Chosen Undead, and The Ashen One all knew trasnsposition, which agian there is literally no evidence for.

Unless someone can show any proof that these assumptions are true, then we have to go with the default that the power to maintain the sun comes from Gwyn himself.
 
@snowflame

No, the supporters are the ones that need to show proof of their power actually keeping the sun in existence with their power, because it's never been stated they did that, it's never been shown, and it's an outlier that doesn't fit with the verse's other tiers
 
I said I wanted in game proof, not the "Proof" you feel like suits it, you are making baseless assumptions, I love all the games, I just can't stand them seeing wanked.

You said the entire wiki disagrees with me, well tell you what, I asked around and everyone outside the wiki thought the tiering was ********, even debaters that would foddorize you and me in less than 5 comments.

Proof is the raw source that comes from the game, I wanted explicit feat of what you said, I asked you for island busting scans and you pussied out.

I also said I wanted to see that the flame really was the sun or that they power it, and that the kiln is only a path between the subject and the sun.

Nothing ever shows about the sun disappearing, you can't say the sun would disappear when only the world gets dark yet the flames still burn.
 
He literally put himself as an Opponent because he thinks it's "Wanked". He's notoriously biased against Soulsborne.

There is no proof of what the OP says. The Kilin only serves to transport energy. It is not the source of nothing. They still generate the necessary power passively.

Also "Lol debaters that would fodderize". This isn't a competition. I couldn't care less if some people outside the wiki think it's wrong.
 
Yeah and? Claiming a baseless assumption as " You just hate the Verse" a literal fallacy listed on the fallacy profile. I debate pokemon yet have played and currently have all pokemon games with a complete pokedex and boxes full of ev trained perfect pokemon but as ya often have me debating pokemon that must mean pokemon is ass from my perspective. Factually i enjoy the shit out of pokemon despite my disagreement of scaling and a few feats of the verse matt .

Ya used litterally the worst debate ya could there matt.
 
Biased? what kind of a biased fan would I be if I wanted to downgrade it to this extent?

"The Kilin only serves to transport energy"

This right here, show me scan of this ever being said in the game and we might be able to discuss it.The OP has explained this in the previous thread, though not correctly he has shown some scans.

Of course you couldn't, after all you are an admin, but know this, even though you are an admin, that doesn't make you less fodder.
 
@Unholy

Literal description of the item. You can stop this "Show me scans!" when you haven't ever shown one yourself.

The OP hasn't explained anything. He invented a reason for how things work based on a transporting item.

And what does my Admin Status has to do with anything?
 
No. Pointing out ya used a shit and bad point that ya should use litterally not at all. And then attempting a justification of that ? For shame matt. Ya could always admit ya used a bad example.
 
What Item? If you had scans I assumed you would have posted them.

I don't even know how to get through you anymore, do you even know the basic rules of debating?

You are the one claiming positive, you are the one responsible for showing me that your words hold truth and you do so by providing in game scans. Did you honestly think debating was that easy?

I assumed admins were people who could differ between wank and downplay and could put aside their attachment to a specific verse, seems like not everyone can do that.

I gave you more than enough reasoning why this can't be, if you did not ask for scans then that is your prove, believe it or not what I say I can prove, with scans ripped from the source itself.
 
@J Man

Except unlike you, Unholy has also put himself as an opponent of the verse. You seem to ignore that part. Debating against a verse doesn't make you biased against it. It is your actions, words and attitude that makes you come off as biased.
 
Ok, I want to have a word with the Creator of this wiki, there are serious issues I need to address to him, so who is it?
 
What's your point, J-Man? I pointed out that he was biased against Soulsborne, and then went on to respond to his argument. My point wasn't "You hate Souls so you're wrong". I brought that up because I doubt that he's looking at this issue from an objective standpoint. He's repeatedly extremely confrontational to anyone who disagrees with him in these threads, and it always becomes a circular debate.
 
Creator of this wiki has been gone since like 2015 or earlier. Waaay before anyone here came here.
 
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