My Little Pony: Revisions are Magic

Alternate title: Azzy has Beef with Another Franchise He Likes -- Revengeance

These are a few issues I've noticed with some of our MLP:FiM pages that I feel need to be corrected. I'll be up front and say that all of them are basically downgrades.

"But Azathoth, why would y-"

Silence, nerd! These changes aren't too major in the grand scheme of things. MLP's top tiers will remain Tier 4, and I'm not going to purge a massive list of abilities from everyone's pages. That said, I do feel these are quite important in regards to the higher tiers, as well as some of the scaling.

The Chronicles of Sunbutt: Moving the Same Thing in the Same Setting but Faster Somehow Requires Less Energy

This is the long one, but also the most important.

Currently, all of the top tiers are scaled to two calcs, both of which reached low-end Solar System level by using the relativistic KE of Celestia moving the sun. Looking back, I have some major issues with these (the first more so than the second, as the second's only problem lies in the actual show) that I'll try to explain in detail.

Regarding the first one: First of all, the speed in the first calc is 0.953c. The cutoff point for relativistic KE is 0.93c according to our own Kinetic Energy Feats page. Second, even assuming the cutoff point has changed to 0.96c, this is a difference of just above 0.007c, which is so small in comparison that even accounting for margin of error likely pushes us over that higher threshold. This on its own is extremely shaky.

Regarding both: I am very uncomfortable using the relativistic KE of an object that is consistently moved at FTL speeds, including by Celestia herself. For instance, you have:

Twilight boosted by all Alicorn magic moving the sun at FTL+ speeds.

Discord moves the sun at FTL speed.

The Storm King moving the sun at ludicrously FTL speeds.

Celestia herself moving the sun at FTL speed.

With just stuff off the top of my head, instances of "the sun being move faster than the speed of light" are double the number of "the sun moves really close to the speed of light but not quite". Do you see where I'm going with this?

The sun is consistently moved at speeds beyond that of light, and the times it was moved at under lightspeed, let alone 0.93/096c, have to be actively searched for. It's nonsensical to say the feat of Celestia moving the sun >0.8c is beyond the Storm King's feat of flinging the sun around the sky, when his feat is purposefully done to show just how much more powerful he's becoming (having all the princesses' magic stored in the staff) and how casually he's doing it.

I'm going to give you a hypothetical situation.

Say character X throws a planet the size of Earth or a bit larger across the solar system at FTL speeds. Said feat would be rated as Planet level (or "At least Planet level" depending on how easily it was done) due to Earth's GBE, but we wouldn't be able to derive a relativistic KE value due to moving above the speed of light.

Character X throws the planet again, this time at much, much higher FTL speeds. Same result, but better speed. Keep in mind that it's still the exact same object.

Now say he throws it a third time at what's calculated as extremely high relativistic speeds. Said feat is calculated as Star level. Would we then rate him as Star level and retroactively say him doing the same thing before was also Star level?

No. Because we've explicitly seen him move the same object at FTL speed. It's been made very clear from this that it's not abiding by relativistic KE, and to say that it is because of the one time it moved at Rel+ speeds, despite the multiple other times it clearly moved FTL, is disingenuous.

Rating Celestia and anyone else at her level as 4-C/Star level is a lot more accurate. With the current AP chart, anyone more than 2x her power or so would be Large Star level. If the changes ever go through, it would probably be "At least Star level". Discord may have some kind of Large Star level feat I'm forgetting, though.

Dear Princess Celestia, Today I Learned that I Don't Scale to You

Normal Alicorn Twilight's "At most 4-B" (which would become "At most 4-C" with this going through) really doesn't need to be there. All the reasons for her scaling are pretty damn bad.

"Should be roughly on par with the other Alicorns"

Nothing suggests this. Twilight has consistently been portrayed as inexperienced and relatively weak (albeit with great potential) compared to the other princesses. In fact...

"though Twilight does not believe herself capable of moving the sun and moon."

Understatement. When Twilight asks the princesses to move the sun and the moon for a party and they question it, Twilight responds that she'd do it herself, but she doesn't have their magic. This gives us two options. Either Twilight isn't strong enough to do this, in which case Twilight doesn't scale, or she would need their magic because it's a specific ability, in which case it scales to no one due to not being AP at all (I prefer the former, as it's really just large-scale telekinesis). Even if we assume Twilight only meant she couldn't move both, so just the moon and not the sun, she'd cap out at Low 4-C/Small Star level, and even that is being extremely generous considering she's never done anything remotely close to this level and is consistently inconvenienced by relative fodder.

"The Pony of Shadows believed Twilight to be almost on par with Starswirl, despite their brief interaction"

Twilight's final means of scaling is due to a being who was extremely weakened and had just returned after thousands of years of banishment believing her to be comparable to a guy whose only 4-C feat nearly drained all of his power in a book that's no longer canon. I shouldn't have to explain this one.

So yeah, Twilight is being incredibly overestimated based on what we know about her, right now. Pretty sure the only other person this affects is Starlight Glimmer. The Pony of Shadows itself, when restored to full power, tanked the Elements of Harmony (which obliterated both Nightmare Moon and Discord) and was viewed as a threat to Equestria that the princesses couldn't stop. That's way better reasoning for him to scale to Tier 4 than being above Starswirl.

I was gonna throw in a third section about the Elements, but I'm tired, so I'll do that another time.

I think that this seems to make sense, but it is best to ask Darkanine to give input as well.

Sure.

While I am fine with the downgrades, a few things.

1) The low end sun movement feat is within the 0.8 range, not 0.9. It's fairly far from 0.93c. Speaking of which, I have yet to hear a satisfying reason as to why it caps at 0.93c. The most i've heard was to protect against "inflated results", which doesn't seem to hold water.
2) To be fair, the Storm King's staff of Sacanas was amped by the power of 4 alicorns, so it makes sense that it be faster, same goes with Twilight to a lesser extent. Fair enough on Celestia's end, but since most calcs are below SoL, I might be inclined to think it might be a high end. The camera of the feat itself is also a little wonky so getting a solid distance was hard.
3) Honestly I don't really agree with Tier 4 Twilight to begin with. It messes with power-scaling to much, since AJ and RD are still consistently able to injure enemies which can take hits from Twilight's magic (Storm Minions/Beasts of Black Skull Island, Bug Bears, etc).
On the topic of MLP revisions, it was such a minor point that I didn't know when to bring it up but here goes. Both the dubiously canon The Movie Prequel anthology series and the also dubiously canon RPG Tails of Equestria both state/strongly imply that the Storm King only has weather manipulation wit "The Staff of Sacanas" (what we previously called "Storm Staff"). Since I don't think the movie ever showed the King manipulating weather on his own, I think we should change it to where he only has Weather Manipulation with his staff.

1. Are your referring to when I mentioned margin of error for the first calc? Because I'm obviously aware there would be both lower and higher ends. Or are you referring to the second calc?

2. Yes, that was definitely part of my point. How fast a character throws the sun around is usually used to display power, which is why amped Storm King and Twilight do it faster than say Celestia.

3. This. I agree.

I'm also fine with the clarification for the Storm King.

I'm sending this from my phone, so excuse me if it's unintelligible gibberish.

"a guy whose only 4-C feat nearly drained all of his power in a book that's no longer canon"

Technically, that event still happened as per season 8's Horse Play (Assuming we're referring to the same feat), but yeah I agree with not scaling.

I think he means the contradictions with the season 7 finale ( unless you mean something else Azzy)

And yeah I messaged Dark about Horse Play a while ago

@Ever

I'm referring to when Starswirl tried on his own and nearly used up all his magic, but yeah, I know him and other powerful unicorns uniting to do it is still canon.

Remember when that feat was one of the main points against Tier 4 MLP?

Forgot to mention I agree with the revisions.

How would we scale that feat? Low 4-C Starswirl and the others?

@Dark

Don't know if it would scale to the normal AP of anyone but Starswirl, considering everyone but him was contributing all of their magic they'd ever have and then becoming powerless.

Not like it matters because they were all a bunch of randos, anyway.

Posts like these really make old MLP threads hilarious in hindsight

Anyway, I guess that's three for the revisions, so far. Hopefully we get some more input, soon.

Azzy, you know how hard it is to find 4-C opponents for Composite Twilight right?

Well... I can't see anything wrong with this.

Has my approval.

Edwardtruong2006 said:

Azzy, you know how hard it is to find 4-C opponents for Composite Twilight right?

Click to expand...

Composite Twilight is Tier 2 lmao.

Edwardtruong2006 said:

Azzy, you know how hard it is to find 4-C opponents for Composite Twilight right?

Click to expand...

Composite as in just Twilight with her best forms and such combined? Because she'd be High 4-C with Rainbow Power and all Alicorn magic, anyway.

At least going by our current chart. Not sure after that's revised.

It comes from a few recent story arcs.

Scaling off of Nightmare Moon, Daybreaker and Stygian who were all said to be able to reshape every reality throughout the multiverse and Shadowlock who created/destroyed several realms, including the IDW universe (if you go full composite at least).

Show, composite Twilight I mean.

I've only read a good chunk of Friends Forever as other media.

Darkanine said:

Scaling off of Nightmare Moon, Daybreaker and Stygian who were all said to be able to reshape every reality throughout the multiverse and Shadowlock who created/destroyed several realms, including the IDW universe (if you go full composite at least).

Click to expand...

Not really relevant to the thread, but I don't remember this. When was it said?

As much as I hate not having anyone to put a character I like against, I agree with the downgrade.

I think that's from the MLP Annual 2018 Legends of Magic

Legends of Magic annual 2018. Came out a few weeks ago to almost no fanfair.

Quote:

"Looks can be deceiving, Rockhoof. These are not mere little fillies. They have an infinite power for destruction. With a little bit of corruption, they'll become Daybreaker and Nightmare Moon. I saw it in the ones from my world. I sought to unlock that power. But my Starswirl stopped me. I thought I'd have to settle for doing the destroying by myself. Then, your Luna opened a path to my world. All I had to do was send my scouts to wait until they made themselves visible again. Then I captured them once I have infused the with Shadow Magic I shall command the two most destructive forces in history. Then, I'll overrun every reality and make it as empty and corrupted as mine."

Scan 1, scan 2.

Not sure if it's 2-A since no space-time was mentioned but still.

2-C at least

Not sure what it is, considering we don't have any sort of timeframe or what exactly the PoS "corruption" entails besides bringing a reality into complete darkness, but it's a very good feat, nonetheless.

Legends of Magic #1 implies that "corruption" is the destruction of light and free will (or something like that). Considering the multiverse is infinite, and Stygian was confident they were gonna affect every reality, is a timeframe relevant?

That'd be a minimum of 4-A, then (for the destruction of light part).

I think it is, considering I don't think there's anything stopping the PoS from having them do this forever, and he suggested it's something he could do himself, which would line up with what he was already doing.

Though this is probably off topic.

Fair enough, but I'll respectively disagree. Nonetheless, 4-A is surprisingly consistent with Bookworm, Discord and Shadowlocks feats (though Shadow might be 3-A/Low 2-C) but yeah back on the topic at hand.

What else needs to be discussed?

Quick question, slightly off-topic.

Would any other MLP profiles from different medias (such as IDW) ever be allowed due to the new rules made a while ago with alternate versions of characters? I remember an Accord profile was generally accepted and then forgotten, around a year or so ago.

@Dark That's completely fine, as I acknowledge the statement could be taken to be High 3-A, I just don't believe it to be such based on context.

The comics have extremely consistent 4-A stuff, yeah. They definitely go out of there way to make things more powerful.

I think most of the important stuff in this thread has been discussed. We just need to decide who gets High 4-C and who is 4-C, and what tier Alicorn Twilight should be, I guess.

Accord is essentially just Discord but with a different personality and character, all of his feats should scale t Discord. We already have some IDW profiles like Bookworm. I was planning on making one for King Longhorn but I have no earthly idea how to scale IDW non-alicorn ponies.

@Shake I made a thread about this a while ago basically any important IDW exclusive character is fair game IIRC

By the way

I think Alicorn Twilight should be either straight 6-C+ or At least 6-C+, since it's likely that she's superior to all of her friends by a large amount.

"At least 6-C+" is probably fine, but should there be a "likely higher" after it? Or is it fine as-is?

Admittedly this is kinda flimsy evidence but Clover the clever did Channel friendship magic to defeat the Wendigo's who have a 6-B feat could Alicorn Twi scale to that?

I...don't know? Didn't this all happen in a play?

IIRC it's presented in a play but the events themselves did happen in Equestria's history

Not sure. Seems kinda vague, especially since members of the mane 6 were still shown as playing their parts.

Yeah, it was in a play but it supposedly happened in the actual chronology. I'd say it's apocryphal at best though since it's still technically a fictionalized version of a "real" event.

"At least 6-C+, likely higher" Alicorn Twilight should be good. The current feat we use is 52~ Gigatons, right?

Edit: I think Clover appears in one of the books though, so maybe it happens there too. Theirs also a vaguely canon book where Spike and Ruby Redheart do basically the same feat but on a drastically smaller scale so it may be accurate, but still.

~54ish, I think?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...My_Little_Pony:_Winter_Wrap_Up_Storm_Clearing 83?