My Little Pony: Revisions are Magic

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

AFAIK, the accepted version is my 54 GT version but I don't think it was ever really discussed which one we should use.

 

[Jinsye]

Also IMO, I'm pretty sure anyone above Discord gets High 4-C.

Not sure on Discord himself though.

 

[Js250476]

Clover also appears as Starswirl's student in Journal of the two sisters ( along with the other characters from the play to)

Yes I know there was contradictions in the show and it in season 7 but AFAIK Clover's role and as Starswirl's student hasn't been retconned yet

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Did we ever update the Tier 4 stuff? If so, the gap is supposedly to be much wider than before.

If so, the only characters I'm comfortable with being High 4-C is Tirek and full-powered Staff of Sacanas Storm King. Sombra and Discord would be a solid At least 4-C though.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Dark

It was agreed upon, but never seems to have been implemented.

 

[Jinsye]

Also Rainbow Power forms are High 4-C too

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Dark
It was agreed upon, but never seems to have been implemented.

It was postponed so most people were done with school work before it would be done.

 

[Js250476]

Ngl this downgrade kinda hurts me a bit cause of the massive effort me and Dark did to get MLP to 4-B in the first place

But if it must be done then it must I understand

 

[Phoenix821]

Maybe there will be a 4-B feat in the future

 

[Jinsye]

I'm still waiting til Discord makes his pocket dimension have a night's sky.

 

[Js250476]

Wish they would just make that friends forever issue definitively canon or something

 

[Phoenix821]

In the comics there's stars in his realm I believe.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here?

 

[Jinsye]

Alicorn Twilight gets downgraded to 'At least 6-C+, likely higher' or so.

Celestia and Luna get downgraded to Star level, not sure on the others.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The Twilight changes affect Starlight as well, but I think that's it.

I'm not sure if Discord should be "At least Star level" or "Large Star level", as he was superior to both Celestia and Luna, but anyone above him is definitely Large Star level by the current AP chart.

 

[Jinsye]

I believe the ones that are staying 4-C with the current AP chat are...

Celestia, Luna, Candence, Chrysalis, and Tempest.

The ones that I dunno are....

Discord, Sombra, and the Dazzlings

The rest go to High 4-C imo

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Sombra is probably still 4-C, considering he lost to the combined power of Celestia and Luna except in Siege of the Crystal Empire, but that was shit.

I'd assume the Dazzlings would get "Likely 4-C" for being above Starswirl, who on his own is probably Low 4-C or so, based on what we know (considering he could help other great sorcerers move the sun while doing like 1/6 of the work and still not lose his powers).

Things like full power Tirek and Rainbow Power are obviously High 4-C.

I'm not sure what we should do with the Elements of Harmony, as they easily overpowered Nightmare Moon and Discord, so...maybe "Likely High 4-C"?

 

[Antvasima]

High 4-C is just slightly above 4-C. Given that Discord can affect several stars at once, he probably qualifies.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Then it would just switch to "Discord and above" as opposed to "above Discord", which would also make the Elements flat High 4-C.

 

[Jinsye]

So basically

4-C: Dazzlings, Celestia, Luna/Nighmare Moon, Cadence, Queen Chrysalis, Tempest Shadow with bombs, King Sombra

High 4-C: Discord, EoH, Rainbow Power, Full Power Staff of Sacanas Storm King, Pony Of Shadows, and Tirek (Dunno which one becomes High 4-C, Post Mane 6?)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So basically
Tirek (Dunno which one becomes High 4-C, Post Mane 6?)

I'd assume Post Mane 6, yeah. Post Shining Armor would be "Likely 4-C", I'd think.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Question: Don't Celestia and Luna actually habe a specific ability in the book? Technically it would still scale to Starswirl and the unicorns since they performed the feat without the "specific ability" wouldn't it? I interpret it as: Twilight could raise the Sun like Starswirl did, but she'd wind up losing her magic like everyone else. But again, that's just my take.

In addition, I'd like to point out that it took 2 hits from the Pony of Shadows to fully break Starswirl's shield. As in: The same PoS that tanked the EoH. That would put Starswirl at or near solid 4-C.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Amother thing: Would Celestia be Large star level? I think I remember something about her turning a dude into a constellation, which was used to argue for her becoming 4-A. I have, admittedly no knowledge on thar, but it'd be great if someone could dig it up.

 

[Js250476]

I remember that was a mistake and IIRC Celestia didn't turn someone into a constellation just some pony flew into the sky after being defeated by Chrysalis and turned into one

 

[Lightbuster30]

I remember that was a mistake and IIRC Celestia didn't turn someone into a constellation just some pony flew into the sky after being defeated by Chrysalis and turned into one

Remind me again where that feat even came from? Was it a book? Comic? A scene in the show I missed?

 

[Js250476]

Fiendship is magic issue 5

 

[Lightbuster30]

Fiendship is magic issue 5

Oh, the non cannon? Great.

 

[Js250476]

I wish the comic feats were canon at this point

 

[Lightbuster30]

As a final say to Twilight being Tier 4-C, be it low, straight up, or high end, then if she is almost as powerful as Starswirl, that would make her from 4-C (his shields withstood attacks from full power PoS), to Low 4-C.

Why? Starswirl is one of; and depicted as, one the most powerful Unicorns who have ever lived, and has created over 200 spells iirc. Thus, he should at least be stronger than a single one of the 5 Unicorns who raised the Sun. Which makes them both Low 4-C (assuming him being straight 4-C based on erecting shields a full power Pony of Shadows is unacceptable).

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Starswirl can be Tier 4. Twilight shouldn't be. Virtually everything in the show contradicts it. At most, one could argue she has the potential to be Tier 4, but she hasn't shown to unlock it.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that it was mentioned by the Pony of Shadows that she is almost on par with Starswirl though, and there was a leaked episode in which a copy of her was stronger than base Chrysalis, but if that creates too many contradictions, we should probably ignore it.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Maybe Twilight can be "At least Island level+, possibly higher (Her magic, albeit when combined with the three other alicorns, was used to empower the Staff of Sacanas to its full power, in which it could move the sun at speeds vastly faster than light)"

I know Staff of Sacanas scaling was disregarded in the past due it just needing to be charged with the magic of four alicorns but I'm not totally sure if I buy that since Twilight is a relatively new alicorn in the grand scheme of things (not sure how long, this show gives a middle finger to any form of chronology and timeline). I still disagree with Tier 4 Twilight but I agree with the possibility of her having the potential to reach that high eventually.

By the way, what do we do with Cadance? AFAIK she's never really done anything on Celestia's level nor fought anyone on that level either, but Twilight's Kingdom did imply she was around their level IIRC.

Edit: In case anyone is curious, theirs yet another 4-A feat in the comics. During the Chaosville arc where Pinkie Pie becomes the Alicorn "Princess of Chaos", she warps and reshapes the entire Chaos Dimension which contains stars and powered Dicord in his entirety. So theirs that.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Dark

I definitely agree with her having a "likely higher", especially with her potential. I just don't think she should be flat out tier 4.

I have no idea about Cadance. Maybe "Possibly 4-C"?

@Ant

Base Chrysalis isn't all that powerful, iirc. She needed to be boosted by a huge amount of love to just barely overpower Celestia. I think her base's best feat is tanking the explosion of the Changeling hive with no major harm.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Starswirl can be Tier 4. Twilight shouldn't be. Virtually everything in the show contradicts it. At most, one could argue she has the potential to be Tier 4, but she hasn't shown to unlock it.

1. How far into it?

2. I mean Starlight cast a spell not even the princesses could do, she can also cast age spells, something only "the most powerful unicorns" can do. I'm fairly certain that they; having trained in magic all their lives, would be more or equally as strong as one of the unicorns who raised the Sun. Because considering how there most have been hundreds of them, I severely doubt they each got the training Twilight did.

I see no reason to disregard the PoS statement over Twilight's one-off statement in light of the above. Especially not when raising celestial objects apparently drains the magic of anypony not named Celestia or Luna, which gives Twilight good reason to say what she did.

@Dark Base Chrysalis isn't all that powerful, iirc. She needed to be boosted by a huge amount of love to just barely overpower Celestia. I think her base's best feat is tanking the explosion of the Changeling hive with no major harm.

True, but the hive explosion had a bunch of magic in it. Like, everyponie's magic. That sounds pretty impressive,if only a tad outlierish.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

1. Presumably Low 4-C, if he was consistently putting that much energy into moving the sun with five other ponies, but he couldn't do so himself.

2. This is a matter of skill and not raw power, though. Only the age spell actively relates this to "power", but it never states one needs to be alicorn level to do it. The unicorns who raised the sun (not counting Starswirld) also wouldn't be Low 4-C, normally. Moving the sun required literally all of their magic, after which they would be completely drained and never able to use their magic ever again. Even then, they were explicitly mentioned to be "great sorcerers", so yes, they definitely had training and weren't just random ponies off the street.

The PoS statement isn't just against Twilight's statement about herself. It's against virtually every showing Twilight has in the show, and everything drastically below the level of the Princesses that has inconvenienced her. Twilight is constantly shown to be not astronomically above the verse's relative "fodder" usually, and is more often lauded for having great potential which is yet untapped.

"True, but the hive explosion had a bunch of magic in it. Like, everyponie's magic. That sounds pretty impressive,if only a tad outlierish."

All non-Changeling magic was nullified by the throne during that time, though. The explosion itself was also only within the high-end Tier 7 range.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Only the age spell actively relates this to "power", but it never states one needs to be alicorn level to do it.

The PoS statement isn't just against Twilight's statement about herself. It's against virtually every showing Twilight has in the show, and everything drastically below the level of the Princesses that has inconvenienced her. Twilight is constantly shown to be not astronomically above the verse's relative "fodder" usually, and is more often lauded for having great potential which is yet untapped.

"True, but the hive explosion had a bunch of magic in it. Like, everyponie's magic. That sounds pretty impressive,if only a tad outlierish."

All non-Changeling magic was nullified by the throne during that time, though. The explosion itself was also only within the high-end Tier 7 range.

1. Indeed not alicorn level, merely top tier unicorn level. Ok, and if they were raising the Sun and losing their magic, then there would be thousands, if not tens of thousands of them. Kinda makes it hard to believe that, that many "great sorcerers" were conveniently around for years on end.

2. The princesses have also been inconvenienced by things they should be massively above. Many times in fact. Such as a storm they should have been able to one-shot. If it can be treated as pis for them then why not Twilight? She hasn't been portrayed as massively above fodder? Not counting yanking her friends out of Discord's magic, stated to be be way out of Sunset Shimmer's league even as a unicorn, overpowering Neighsay's seal with a casual blast (mind you this pony can create portals on the spot, something only displayed by powerful magic users)? It's way more than one statement from the PoS.

It nullifies as in absorbs magic. Meaning it contained the magic, not shut it down. It's even described as absorbing non-changeling magic like a sponge. I had assumed it exploded with the magic.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

1. Except that's exactly what the show says happened.

"Once upon a time, before Celestia, Equestria was suffering terrible hardship. Raising the sun every morning was so hard, it took five great sorcerers plus Star Swirl the Bearded to do it. And every day, the unicorns helping Star Swirl would use so much magic, they lost their powers forever. Things looked bleak. Soon, Equestria would lose all its magic users! Then, the land would be covered in darkness for eternity!"

It happened to so many unicorns that Equestria was under threat of losing all of its magic users.

2. It's treated as PIS for Celestia and Luna because they actually have feats and proper scaling to this level. Twilight does not. Her having feats in general and being described as + scaling to a "powerful magic user" do not make her as strong as Celestia. The entire idea is that Twilight has this great potential, but has not fully realized it, yet. I assume she will before the show is over, but this does not apply to base Alicorn Twilight right now, who is often shown on the same level as her friends and inconvenienced by things such as Storm Guards (who again, are scaled to her friends).

The throne exploded with the Changeling magic burst, yes. But said burst was only the Changelings' magic. Everyone else had their magic returned to them.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Azathoth makes sense.