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Defining Hatsune Miku & Vocaloids' Strength

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Hi there!

So, I saw the downgrade you made for the whole Vocaloid Universe, and as much as I liked Immortal Star-Level Miku, the arguments presented did make sense.

Sadly, though, now the VOCALOIDs are left without actual feats, positioned in a generic 10-B/Unknown Tier. So, I wanted to see if there is a way to actually understand the strenght of these virtual pop stars, and give them proper tiering.

The first issue: The songs' text cannot be usen as reference for providing FEATs!

First off, has anyone played Hatsune Miku Project Diva X?

That game is probably one of the strangest in the entire series, due to the fact that, opposed to other titles, THERE IS a plot. You know, with Miku talking, having her own personality (sort of) telling what you do, interacting with other VOCALOIDs and stuff.

The plot of the game is the following: Miku and the other live in a sort-of virtual reality, where the power of crystals has faded away. VOCALOIDs' singing abilities depends on these crystals.

You, the player (4th Wall Breaking), interact with Miku and "help her singing the songs" in order to collect "Voltage" and filling the "Crystals" once more so that her world can shine again, and they can all return to do what they like: Singing the songs.

And that's the issue here: SONGS. That's how she calls them. All the stuff Miku sings is nothing more than just fiction (even for her). If we take it by Project Diva X point of view, this isn't stuff that Miku "does", it's just stuff that Miku "sings", she is not actually doing what she claims during the song.

You can tell that by Kagamine Len's song "Holy Lance Explosion Boy". In this song, Len is essentialy a manwhore, who keeps changing IDs and impregnating womens, but the guy is just 14!

Same thing in Brain Revolution Girl, this time with Miku instead, where she is essentialy a prostitute. None of these attitudes are never referenced again, and don't actually fit with how the characters act outside of the songs.

What i'm trying to say here is:

Miku is a fictional idol that likes to sing songs, and the songs themselves... are just songs. These do not rapresent what Miku did in her life or what she can do. Thus, the LYRICS of said tracks cannot be taken literaly for providing FEATs.

Abilities shown in PVs

PVs are, let's say, the Videos for the songs.

We established that the songs' lyrics should be not taken into relevance, but what about we actually see on-screen?

In the PVs, we do see Miku herself and the others doing stuff that can be taken as feats. I mean, it IS Miku doing this stuff, isn't it? The song may be fictional, but if Miku jumps 10 meters high in the air during the Video, then she DOES have some powerful leg strenght, isn't it?

You see, the problem is - these could be all fake. Just as much as the songs.

To understand what I'm saying, take into real world perspective. Michael Jackson sung "Thriller" and even made a video for it. That doesn't mean that Michael was an undead popstar and certainly he didn't have the power to resurrect the deads.

Considering that Miku is pretty much in the same situation, with her singing fictional songs, what does make us sure that what we actually see on-screen isn't just a product of certain Visual Special Effects? I mean, she IS a Vocalid, she IS a pop-star. The chance of all of it being fake are the same if not greater than all of it being real. Miku jumped 10 meters high. Maybe she was pulled by some string of some sorts, or maybe it was done in CG!

The main problem here is that Project Diva X neither any of all of the other Project Diva games addresses the PV's "nature", we do not know what's their origin and how exactly are made. Are these meant to be taken as real-world music videos? So there are, like, people and music companies that make this stuff for her? This doesn't make sense!

I needed a REFERENCE, and I needed it in order to make some conclusions out of this mess. So, I returned to Diva X and took another look at the opening

Project Diva X Opening

In the other thread it has been said that Videogame openings were not taken into consideration, but in THIS case, the opening is "canon" (canon to the plot of the game, at least)

Remember what I said about the VOCALOIDs' singing abilities being tied to the power of the crystals? This OP shows exactly that. The power of Crystals is fading. The whole stage goes dark, Miku and the others' are literally unable to sing. Ultimate Miku arrives, helps her counterpart and gives her the crystal, and that's when the game begins, with Miku's and the Players' quest to re-fill with Voltage those things, and slowly but surely helping the other VOCALOIDs to regain their singing voices.

So, how does it relate to PVs being real or not? It's simple. The stage where Miku is singing goes off in the very moment the power of the Crystals fades away. When this happens, Miku is literally powerless and needs to be helped by her "other self" (whoever she is).

What I think is: What does happen in PVs IS real, but not as something done by Miku herself, but most likely as a fabrication / spectacularization made by the Crystals' power.

Conclusion:

VOCALOIDS' power is heavely tied to Crystals. When the power of Crystals fades away, they are literally powerless, they can't even sing. If they somehow manage to sing, however, they can cumulate VOLTAGE and increase the Crystal's Power. The Crystal's Power is used as a fuel to make the songs themselves more enjoyable, and can grant the users with some abilities (I.E. Flying).

Also, the Crystals are shared between VOCALOIDs, so it's not like they have different powers or something.

Flying Abilities

1:30

Teleportation (She does that in Concert Mode as well when switching between songs)

1:33

Duplication (Two Mikus)

Pretty much the whole video

Reality Warped an entire planet into becoming full of life and grew much bigger than said planet
.

This has been discussed in the other thread, but I think this has to be counted as a feat.

As I've been saying, the abilities shown in PVs are fruit of the Crystal's Power - I HIGHLY doubt that such a goddess does indeed exist in Miku's word as a separate character (she would be, like, totally out of place in a music-centered virtual world like the one from Diva X) so I think this goddess was just made by Miku's / Crystal's power for the sake of the song.

All the other stuff that has already been written in the current Miku's page

Multiple Personalities Disorder


Oh, and by the way, since we're talking about Project Diva X here.

Multiple Personalities

In Project Diva X, VOCALOIDs change their attitute dramatically depending on what they're wearing - And they do this even OUTSIDE of the songs and when they talk to you.

Essentially, there are 5 types of modules (dresses) in the game (Classic, Cool, Cute, Elegant, Eccentric). The characters act very differently and change their personality depending on what they're wearing.

Project Diva X Vocaloid personalities distinct yet malleable

This is based solely on Project Diva X. VOCALOIDs are not only that.

I get it, but, seriously, do you have any better ideas?

Project Diva X, as far as I know, it's the only game that gives a minimum depth and explaination on how this Universe works. And it certainly fits with the theme of our favourite girl, since it's music centered and everything.

Also looking how Miku works IRL, it also fits. She is a Yamaha voice synthtetizing program, so it makes sense that her own power is based entirely on songs and popularity (VOLTAGE and Crystals are literally a rappresentation of that).

The more she sings, the more she gets popoular. The more she gets popoular, the more stuff she does. It's a circle.

The characters that wee see in Videogames and Videos are literally a rappresentation of that!

How far can the power of Crystals can go? Reality Manipulation?

That's a very... very good question. Determining the extent of the power of Crystals is not easy, given that PVs are probably their fabrication.

I mean, we have virtual realities, people that come back from the dead, people that go into space, people that grows gigantic, people that randomly transform into Chibis.

I think that the Crystal MAY have the power to literally bend the reality Miku is in, but at the same time, I'm sure that it cannot be usen in a random stance like, a fight against someone.

Crystals needs to be filled with VOLTAGE, and VOLTAGE is obtained by Miku singing. So, like, what is she supposed to do? Singing against the enemy she's facing or something? Can she even do that? Would that count as a proper song?

I wouldn't count that. In Project Diva X, each Crystal has shown to have 5 songs each with a definied theme (Classic, Elegant, Cute, Cool, Eccentric). You can't fill a Elegant Crystal by singing a Cool song for example. So, I think that Miku has to sing what the "Crystal" wants, not what "she" needs.

Finally definiying what Miku can do

So, that's what I think how the character should be definied.

While the power of Crystals is potentially enormous (and can probably bend reality), VOCALOIDs are limited by the fact that they have to sing the songs that the Crystal itself requires (the various songs from the Project Diva games). So using this ability properly in a battle would be very unlikely. (I don't know, maybe they can launch someone into space by singing Hello Planet or something similar, and kill the enemy by asphyxiation?)

VOCALOIDs powers are tied to Crystals. The "powers" they receive go from the simple singing to all the miscellanous abilities we see in PV.

Crystals power is running thanks to VOLTAGE. VOLTAGE is obtained thanks to the songs that Miku & Friends sings.
 
Veloxt1r0kore said:
Hmmm,sounds good thou,but lets see what the other staff think.
Anyway do you have a feat for my husbando Gumi?
I'm mostly informed about the Crypton's Vocaloids, she isn't part of that team so I'm not sure the same rules apply to her.

Anyway as far as I recall, she should have a game on PSP and a Manga too! Maybe i'll check them when I'll somehow manage to get the current Vocaloids out of the Unknown Tier.
 
Veloxt1r0kore said:
Well,i afraid this will didn't get attention here so yeah....
Someone will, I just don't know when. I did this mosly because I noticed that there was a debate on the strenght of these characters, because of this they have all fallen on the Unknown tier, and I tried to clarify it, also trying to clear some misconceptions.

The interest seems low because those aren't fighting characters and because VOCALOIDs per se are more popoular in Japan than in the west, but still - since there is a page about Miku and the others, and I know this Verse well enough, it's a waste leaving them with undefinied strenght.

Sure enough, I hope a mod/staff member/someone will check this. So, instead of vague information, we can be more precise!
 
Vocaloid is very popular in my country,indonesia so there's about that.

Yeah,VOCALOID need some love and attention here,HAIL VOCALOID!!

BTW,what about Gumi? is she's worthy to change Miku as "queen of diva" in the future?
 
Veloxt1r0kore said:
Vocaloid is very popular in my country,indonesia so there's about that.

Yeah,VOCALOID need some love and attention here,HAIL VOCALOID!!

BTW,what about Gumi? is she's worthy to change Miku as "queen of diva" in the future?
I surely hope she gets more popoular! I' ve listen a lot of different songs made with her voice, like "1,2, Fanclub" and "Life Reset Button", I love these tracks.

GUMI has an advantage over the Crypton's Vocaloids: She is way less expensive and more accessible. So, if in the future VOCALOIDs will continue to grow in popoularity, GUMI will have a lot of songs and will surely earn a very important place in the scene.

As for me, I do hope she gets even more popoular / as popoular as Miku.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Can you summarize what you are proposing?
I'll try! But it's not easy though. The first post is quite lenghty.
In short:

The game "Project Diva X" has a plot that establishes that VOCALOIDs' power originates from crystals. They live in their own world. Crystals' power is running to Miku & the others' singing.

Lyrics cannot be taken as FEATs (reasons in the first post). PVs/Videos can. PVs are a fabrication/spectalurization made by the CRYSTALs' power, not by Miku herself. (again, reasons in first post)

Stuff like Miku becoming a goddess and changing a planet into one full of life = Possible due to crystals

Crystals require specific songs (And not made-ups, reasons above). Very unlikely that Miku and the other can use it properly in fight (they'd have to actually sing the song during the fight)

There is a lot of speculation, but i was trying to make some sense out of this.

This is an example blog post I made to give an idea on how it would look. It's not definitive, it's not accurate (not yet), but before I start checking stuff, i wanted to be sure to establish what can be taken as FEAT and what not:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:RashFaustinho/Hatsune_Miku
 
A few things:

1. Creating a giant monster needs citation, and may very likely not be High 7-C.

2. Moving the universe needs even more citation and is an outlier.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
A few things:
1. Creating a giant monster needs citation, and may very likely not be High 7-C.

2. Moving the universe needs even more citation and is an outlier.
As I said, the page was just an example, first i'm trying to establish what can be taken as FEAT and what not.

The monster thing would come from here: https://youtu.be/f27mXr12MuQ?t=1m32s If what i wrote in the opening post is correct, and PVs are a fabrication of crystals, then she literaly made up a Godzilla like monster and defeated it herself by growing gigantic

About moving the universe: https://youtu.be/p-6pTHopmRo?t=143 I don't know if you remember this thing, it was the "feat" that was taken for saying that Miku & other are Massively FTL+. This is obviously not the case, since she is standing still. Then what's happening here? Is she moving the universe around her or something? That's what I thought, but i repeat, not saying that what I wrote in that EXAMPLE is correct.

Before doing any of that stuff, I'm trying to determine what's "real" and can be taken as feat and what not. That's why the first post is so lenghty.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
One:
https://youtu.be/f27mXr12MuQ?t=23 Miku is playing with toys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-6pTHopmRo&feature=youtu.be&t=143

This has no universal just a shinto goddess healing a planet.
...I cannot debate if you don't read what I wrote in the first post thought :-/

For reasons stated above, which i'm trying to confirm, PVs are a fabrication made by crystals.

So, everything that happens there -> Made by the Crystals. Crystals work thanks to VOLTAGE. VOLTAGE is gained via Miku's singing. Miku herself does nothing, but her power IS tied to those things.

So, how is the fact that in the song's "plot" is all made by her imagination, if in the end the ENTIRE video is fabricated by these Crystals?

Also, why would a Shinto Goddess exist on a music-settled-universe? Why would it matter that there are two Mikus? Already happens in another song. She can duplicate apparently....

I repeat, the first post has to be read - We can't debate about this if we don't even understand how this whole verse is supposed to work. We have to establish the basis - This is not a verse based on fighting characters like all the others, so some rules have to be specificed. And I tried to, but before talking about FEATs, we have to talk about the RULES.
 
The PLOT of the first PV is Miku's playing with toys and imagining wildly. There's no power there.

Also evidence that Crystals are even a thing?

As for the Goddess... Because it is a music video and Miku is an idol / actress. She can just be playing a role. Michael Jackson isn't a necromancer nor a wizard in ancient egypt.
 
Uhh I'll have you know...Michael Jackson WAS indeed a user of the dark arts, how are you try and LIE about Thriller.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The PLOT of the first PV is Miku's playing with toys and imagining wildly. There's no power there.
Also evidence that Crystals are even a thing?

As for the Goddess... Because it is a music video and Miku is an idol / actress. She can just be playing a role. Michael Jackson isn't a necromancer nor a wizard in ancient egypt.
The plot of the songs =/= the plot of this verse

Actually, the plot of the songs has no value whatsoever. Those are just songs, even for the VOCALOIDs themselves. Reasons stated in the first post.

As I specificed in the first post (which I hope someday it will be taken into consideration...) there is a game in the Project Diva series, called Project Diva X, which mentions these Crystals, mention the VOLTAGE thing et cetera et cetera. It's a game with his own plot... And it's not the one from the songs.

The problem is that the game takes place in-an-apparently sci-fi virtual world. PVs nature has to be addressed. Which, again, I tried to do in the first post... Which I beg you to read.

Again, this is an attempt on making sense out of this mess, because this is not a fighting verse like the others - we cannot talk directly about FEATs... we first have to talk about what's a FEATs and what not, because every kind of weird stuff happens in PVs.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I have no idea what you are even saying.
Read the first post? :p

Seriously, though. I get it's annoying, it's long et cetera et cetera, but as you're seeing, you don't even get what I'm talking about...

We cannot debate if we're not in the same line, that's why I need you to read that thing.
 
Well, I get that there is no will to adjut this verse: no one knows it well enough and no one wants to understand it.

That's ok, but then why were pages opened in the first place...? It was even written it was going under a major revision, but there was no one doing that, isn't it?

What's the point of keeping Unknown Tier characters when no one knows them? I mean, even if I tried to give'em a sort of logic, no one would be able to check what I'm doing. This thread basically confirms it.
 
Why are you wasting time with this ridiculous thrread to try and bring up points on a stance about the Vocaloid verse that everyone ALREADY agrees about?

This would be like me making a thread about how I think Goku REALLLY needs to be made Low 2-C right now.
 
AquaWaifu said:
Why are you wasting time with this ridiculous thrread to try and bring up points on a stance about the Vocaloid verse that everyone ALREADY agrees about?
?

The characters from this verse are listed as unknown.

Also, I'm pretty sure that crystals, VOLTAGE and stuff like that were never mentioned. The "established stances everyone agrees about" haven't been read it seems.

Doesn't surprise me, no one read a single thing.
 
There is one thing about this that I noticed. Technically speaking, the song lyrics and music video things could be used in a seperate key or another page, similar to how we have pages for Spaceman Spiff and Stupendous Ma, dispite both of them just being Calvin's imagination. Yes I know we don't have a page for Calvin himself but my point still stands. And I see you searching Calvin in the search bar right now. That's not the Calvin I'm talking about, beleive me.
 
Just a thought. We have profiles like those Steam Powered Giraffe characters, and their abilities come from music videos and lyrics. And we even have a Chuck Norris page here. What I'm saying is, even though all the feats Saikou found before that made Miku 4-A could probably be special effects or just a fabrication, but isn't that the point of those music videos?

Also I agree with what The Smashor said. I mean, even Rikka Takanashi's chunibyo form is taken literally in one of these pages, and that's purely a delusion. Why not some special effects meant to represent Miku Hatsune's stage persona?
 
Would hardly change anything. All the "feats" Miku had in her songs were all debunked, that's the main reason she was moved to Unknown Tier, not because her songs and special effects are a fabrication. So, even if we consider that, it wouldn't change much.

The point of THIS thread was trying to explain the lore of Diva X and trying to move Miku out from the Unknown Tier, but i got a bunch of "uh?" and "what?"
 
Bump.

Has anyone read the first post in all this time?

Fast recap

In Projecy Diva X there is a plot -> In Diva X songs are fabrication of Crystals -> Crystals have powers and can do things
 
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