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Behind the Shadows: Kessler vs Ozpin
- Thread starter Schnee_One
- Start date
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Well, I wanted to wait for few votes to role in, but I guess I'll get the ball rolling.
Kessler has a slight advantage, as he scales to a ~347.2 megaton feat that was performed by a Cole who was far weaker than when he and Kessler fought.
Ozpin scales to a ~337.2 feat, if we multiply Raven's storm feat by 4. And he's supposedly only been slightly weakened as, so its a close call.
Kessler has the more impressive power set: multiple summons to either attack or distract (though Ozpin's Aura will probably protect him from phantasm mindscrew, as they need to make physical contact in order to work), the ability to turn Oz's bioelectricity against him, mind hax via memory inject, a telekinesis that has a multi-city block range, has seemingly endless amounts of electricity to use, and regains stamina extremely quickly.
Ozpin might have an edge in experience, and his flight is worrisome, but Kessler resists heat (fire) and lightning fairly well, ice can be warded off through the extreme heat Kessler's lightning puts off (which was brought up in the comics), and telekinesis counters flight pretty hard (imagine Kessler pulling a Scorpion on flying Ozpin). The rest should be countered by Kessler's regen and passive barrier. Old Man Cole's insane endurance should also let him tough it out, man took an extended beating and a point blank lightning storm, and he still managed to get up and blitz Cole one last time to show him a vision.
Kessler 7/10
Kessler has a slight advantage, as he scales to a ~347.2 megaton feat that was performed by a Cole who was far weaker than when he and Kessler fought.
Ozpin scales to a ~337.2 feat, if we multiply Raven's storm feat by 4. And he's supposedly only been slightly weakened as, so its a close call.
Kessler has the more impressive power set: multiple summons to either attack or distract (though Ozpin's Aura will probably protect him from phantasm mindscrew, as they need to make physical contact in order to work), the ability to turn Oz's bioelectricity against him, mind hax via memory inject, a telekinesis that has a multi-city block range, has seemingly endless amounts of electricity to use, and regains stamina extremely quickly.
Ozpin might have an edge in experience, and his flight is worrisome, but Kessler resists heat (fire) and lightning fairly well, ice can be warded off through the extreme heat Kessler's lightning puts off (which was brought up in the comics), and telekinesis counters flight pretty hard (imagine Kessler pulling a Scorpion on flying Ozpin). The rest should be countered by Kessler's regen and passive barrier. Old Man Cole's insane endurance should also let him tough it out, man took an extended beating and a point blank lightning storm, and he still managed to get up and blitz Cole one last time to show him a vision.
Kessler 7/10
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@PTS Wizard Oz is actually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The combined power of the maidens. His power has been gradually weakening over the course of thousands of years after he gave them their power, yet after all that time he was able to fight against a Maiden in a weakened form.
Also Oz's powers extend over several kilometers, including his telekinesis
Also lso, Oz's ice should be superior to Raven's, whose ice was able to freeze Cinder, who primarily uses fire
Also Oz's powers extend over several kilometers, including his telekinesis
Also lso, Oz's ice should be superior to Raven's, whose ice was able to freeze Cinder, who primarily uses fire
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And End Game inFamous 1 Cole and Kessler >>>>>>> Early Game Cole. Keep in mind that the storm feat was performed by a Cole who had just awoken his powers, and before he received several boosts in power.
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I edited my comment btw
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Raven's Ice manipulation isn't very impressive and her freezing Cinder doesn't mean much whenever Cinder's body temperature isn't anything special. Voting Kessler via PTS's reason. Seriously good job dude.
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- Thread starter
- #7
I assume Weekly is voting Oz for now.
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Huh, thought Kessler's range was in the km range, since Cole's attacks can reach into the horizon and beyond (you can see how far his missles go before exploding).
You may have a point about the ice manipulation, but Kessler's lightning has casually vaporized body armor, and scales to the likes of Cole and David, both of whom can vaporize reinforced steel and hulking bio engineered Conduits. There's also the fact that lightning has a temperature equal to the surface of the sun, and both Cole and Kessler casually take extended baths in the stuff without a sweat.
You may have a point about the ice manipulation, but Kessler's lightning has casually vaporized body armor, and scales to the likes of Cole and David, both of whom can vaporize reinforced steel and hulking bio engineered Conduits. There's also the fact that lightning has a temperature equal to the surface of the sun, and both Cole and Kessler casually take extended baths in the stuff without a sweat.
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Vaporizing armor and steel isnt at all impressive in a fight between tier 7 characters. Neither is the temperature of lightning or the sun, both of which can be tanked by 8-C durability
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I was gonna bring up the Ray Sphere vaporizing feat, but then remebered that it was rejected.
Either way, Kessler's lightning (and resulting heat) has shown to injure people in his own tier before, so I don't see why it wouldn't work in this case. Kessler is also able to release attacks without moving (his grenades just pop out of thin air, and he should be able to realease omnidirectional shockwaves/lightning in a manner similar to Cole), so both of those can help him break out if he is trapped.
Either way, Kessler's lightning (and resulting heat) has shown to injure people in his own tier before, so I don't see why it wouldn't work in this case. Kessler is also able to release attacks without moving (his grenades just pop out of thin air, and he should be able to realease omnidirectional shockwaves/lightning in a manner similar to Cole), so both of those can help him break out if he is trapped.
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Oz also has full spherical forcefields on top of smaller personal forcefields on top of his aura forcefield that Kessler would have to get through
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Aura doesn't protect the user from heat and from what I'm gathering Kessler's heat is pretty impressive. However it depends on what kind of burns they would leave as Aura does heal the user. Aura also does run out, and pretty quickly at that. Ozpin being a god tier should have longer lasting Aura than other's however we can't assume it'll last for hours or anything. How is Kessler stamina wise? The RWBY verse lacks any impressive stamina feats.
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- Thread starter
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Bad if he goes for his strongest attacks.
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@Knight Aura doesnt, but Oz's forcefields do if his fight with Cinder is any indication (Being able to block heat strong enough to melt marble just by touching it)
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Indeed however that's not gonna last forever. I personally don't like using Wizard Oz since he lacks feats and we have to use a good amount of assumptions to use him in vs threads.
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With his slight strength advantage, and his willingness to spam projectiles, summons, and ability to generate his own electricity, Kessler should be able to eventually break past it. His staying power and ability to rejuvenate himself via aborbing electricity (which he can do easliy via summoning an attack drone and draining it) should also let him outlast Oz in a battle of attrition.
Kessler's stamina is great until he uses his strongest attack (Lightning Beam) 3-4x in a row (its so strong because he has to charge it up slightly, meaning he's drawing on more power than he usually does), then he has to drop down and rest for like 5 seconds and drop his shield. But even then he's still durable enough to tank several attacks from an angry Cole, which varies from lightning bolt to lightning rockets to even a lightning storm. After that brief period, he's back up and running at full power. Keep in mind that it's only that one attack that drains him. He can seemingly spam his other attacks without worrying about his energy pool.
Kessler's stamina is great until he uses his strongest attack (Lightning Beam) 3-4x in a row (its so strong because he has to charge it up slightly, meaning he's drawing on more power than he usually does), then he has to drop down and rest for like 5 seconds and drop his shield. But even then he's still durable enough to tank several attacks from an angry Cole, which varies from lightning bolt to lightning rockets to even a lightning storm. After that brief period, he's back up and running at full power. Keep in mind that it's only that one attack that drains him. He can seemingly spam his other attacks without worrying about his energy pool.
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Cole's lightning is the same lightning that can somehow disable forcefields. Kessler who should be his superior has that, and likely the reason why he managed to harm Cole heavily. Also voting for Kessler, with that in mind and many of Monkey's reasonings. Or should I call you PTS? Head aching.
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I hate to argue for one side but don't forget his clones
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@CoB Are said forcefields magic-based? If not they wouldnt disable Oz's
Also I'd like to mention Oz's thousands of years more combat experience
Also I'd like to mention Oz's thousands of years more combat experience
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@Gar
By summons i usually refer to his clones, but Oz's aura kinda answer that (though I'm double checking that, as I'm pretty sure the phantasms can bypass Cole's shields in game)
@COB
Just call me whatever lol, I'm not really particular on either one
By summons i usually refer to his clones, but Oz's aura kinda answer that (though I'm double checking that, as I'm pretty sure the phantasms can bypass Cole's shields in game)
@COB
Just call me whatever lol, I'm not really particular on either one
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It's the same process as heating up whatever's inside by sheer magnitude of temperature. Considering the fact that you can still be cooked alive while being exposed to extreme heat while having a barrier up, it won't be enough.
Practicality and overwhelming power > Combat Experience. We've seen that with Cinder. And Aura runs out. He won't even get out of tk force choke.
Practicality and overwhelming power > Combat Experience. We've seen that with Cinder. And Aura runs out. He won't even get out of tk force choke.
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@CoB Oz and Kessler are about equal here, Kessler doesnt have an overwhelming advantage
Not all of Oz's powers are Aura based
Not all of Oz's powers are Aura based
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I just looked up, there's an argument that heat res would be enough for Oz. But that's not the case. The temperature a lightning bolt can reach is close the surface of the sun. Even then a constant non-ending stream of it would be very hard to defend. Not to mention force field destabilization is still there.
Judging from what I see I also see no refutal of what PT said. His versatility and superb power is higher than anything Oz has.
It doesn't stop the fact that if he loses aura, a force choke attack would easily end him.
Judging from what I see I also see no refutal of what PT said. His versatility and superb power is higher than anything Oz has.
It doesn't stop the fact that if he loses aura, a force choke attack would easily end him.
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@CoB You only need 8-C durability to survive that level of heat. Kessler cant destabalize Oz's types of forcefields.
Youre acting like Kessler would oneshot his aura which is completely false
Youre acting like Kessler would oneshot his aura which is completely false
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Pretty sure whenever both characters are in the same tier they can still damage each other with their elements. Kessler's heat would be 7-A just as how Natsu has High 6-C fire and how Ace has Low 6-B fire.
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Right on the former, debatable on the latter. We don't have a proof of oz tanking that level of heat. But unnecessary on the grand scheme of things.
Did I imply that? If so, apologies. But it doesn't take away the fact that Cole is still superior in versatility and TK screws over Oz.
Oh and Gargoyle thanks for reminding! The clones are perfect to defend against any attack Oz can toss out, that isn't dodged or blocked at least. Useful lil defensive guards
Did I imply that? If so, apologies. But it doesn't take away the fact that Cole is still superior in versatility and TK screws over Oz.
Oh and Gargoyle thanks for reminding! The clones are perfect to defend against any attack Oz can toss out, that isn't dodged or blocked at least. Useful lil defensive guards
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@CoB How does he destabalize Cole's forcefields? From what i recall his forcefields arent made of magic.
Oz Has telekinesis too, and better range and lifting strength with it
Oz Has telekinesis too, and better range and lifting strength with it
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No, he's superior to Cole, who can provide the same effect repeatedly against futuristic force fields.
Except in Infamous the more energy you pump into your electromagnetism the stronger you get. Also I doubt Oz can keep up with being barraged from numerous attacks and drones and clones too.
Except in Infamous the more energy you pump into your electromagnetism the stronger you get. Also I doubt Oz can keep up with being barraged from numerous attacks and drones and clones too.
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Futuristic forcefields =/= magic
Considering Wizard Oz has singleandedly won wars and is in his prime, not weakened like in his fight with Cinder, i see no eason why he cant
Considering Wizard Oz has singleandedly won wars and is in his prime, not weakened like in his fight with Cinder, i see no eason why he cant
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Kessler FRA.
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For what reasons...?
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Anyway, Oz should take this via his forcefields, better range, remote freezing, and thousands of years more combat experience
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That's why I said it was debatable.....
I'm looking over the RWBY history pages..... would you look at that.... not a single war or mention of Ozpin turning wars over. Is that headcanon or assumptions? Because we need clarification and citations for broad statements like that. Toying with "experience" from the past is as hard as arguing prep time. It's full of holes and fill in the gaps. Just because they have experience doesn't mean they're superior to everything else.
Anyway
Cole - PTS, Knight, Me, Wright
Oz - Weekly
Anyway it's almost midnight so good night.
I'm looking over the RWBY history pages..... would you look at that.... not a single war or mention of Ozpin turning wars over. Is that headcanon or assumptions? Because we need clarification and citations for broad statements like that. Toying with "experience" from the past is as hard as arguing prep time. It's full of holes and fill in the gaps. Just because they have experience doesn't mean they're superior to everything else.
Anyway
Cole - PTS, Knight, Me, Wright
Oz - Weekly
Anyway it's almost midnight so good night.
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@CoB its not assumptions at all, all of Oz's lives were spent fighting a war against Salem, and they were all spent gathering more and more combat experience due to him merging his soul with warriors Anyway, Oz should take this via his forcefields, better range, better TK, remote freezing, and thousands of years more combat experience
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I fail to see how Ozpin single handily winning wars by himself is enough to overwhelm Kessler. Especially whenever we don't know who or what was involved In said war. It could have been fodder Grimm or strong opponents and we can't say for sure. And would Verse equalization not come into effect here?
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No, verse equalizaton does not make magic based abilities and science based abilities the same
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One more response won't hurt.
So headcanon right? Knight already pointed out the issue. It's not as if Ozpin regularly deals with genius level fighters or varied abilities like Kessler. His thousands of years of experience is on a basis of statements. As a wise man once said "show don't tell." If even one scene of Ozpin was shown leading a war it would matter. If it was at least one scene of him fighting someone high level in fighting and expertise it would be enough for me to think "Maybe that's right, Ozpin is a pro after all and is worthy for me to think of him as something akin to Urahara". Except he never did. Also the idea of a wise man with a thousands of years of experience not retreating against a Maiden is also one of the silliest things to do. But that's not the point. The point is Ozpin's experience has always been questionable and will remain questionable against the likes of enemies whose style is entirely different.
So he wins by having the same force field as Kessler, a TK that he never uses vs a tk that electrocutes anything it touches, a range that's also questionable and is in fact comparable between the two with the fact that Cole's lightnings are on that level, remote freezing that's useless, and years of experience that's incredibly questionable, versus the addition of drones that are distractable, high level explosives, terrakinesis that can constantly occur and level the ground, Kessler's self recovery vs Oz's finite aura, Kessler's flash step which personally should be separate from his speed, decoys that can take a hit, and of course, the time travel that could grant Kessler as much prep time as he needs though it's possibly restricted. And doubtful it's a one time use considering when Kessler used it he was perfectly fine.
So all in all.
Difficult, but attainable victory for Kessler
Night.
So headcanon right? Knight already pointed out the issue. It's not as if Ozpin regularly deals with genius level fighters or varied abilities like Kessler. His thousands of years of experience is on a basis of statements. As a wise man once said "show don't tell." If even one scene of Ozpin was shown leading a war it would matter. If it was at least one scene of him fighting someone high level in fighting and expertise it would be enough for me to think "Maybe that's right, Ozpin is a pro after all and is worthy for me to think of him as something akin to Urahara". Except he never did. Also the idea of a wise man with a thousands of years of experience not retreating against a Maiden is also one of the silliest things to do. But that's not the point. The point is Ozpin's experience has always been questionable and will remain questionable against the likes of enemies whose style is entirely different.
So he wins by having the same force field as Kessler, a TK that he never uses vs a tk that electrocutes anything it touches, a range that's also questionable and is in fact comparable between the two with the fact that Cole's lightnings are on that level, remote freezing that's useless, and years of experience that's incredibly questionable, versus the addition of drones that are distractable, high level explosives, terrakinesis that can constantly occur and level the ground, Kessler's self recovery vs Oz's finite aura, Kessler's flash step which personally should be separate from his speed, decoys that can take a hit, and of course, the time travel that could grant Kessler as much prep time as he needs though it's possibly restricted. And doubtful it's a one time use considering when Kessler used it he was perfectly fine.
So all in all.
Difficult, but attainable victory for Kessler
Night.
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No, not at all headcannon, 100% canon. He is the culmination of countless men who spent their lives trying to protect Remnant. With every rebirth he is changed but his memories and experience from his past lives remai (Hence why Oscar was able to learn how to wield Oz's cane after a short time due to Ozpin's muscle memory being transferred to him)
He wins by having the same forcefield as kessler on top of two more forcefields, TK he has no reason not to use as Amber was perfectly willing to use it, which freezes things it touches again as demontrated by Amber, his range is not at all questionable, his frezing isnt useless at all as it froze a fire user, his experience isnt even close to questionable, and flight counters terrakinesis.
He wins by having the same forcefield as kessler on top of two more forcefields, TK he has no reason not to use as Amber was perfectly willing to use it, which freezes things it touches again as demontrated by Amber, his range is not at all questionable, his frezing isnt useless at all as it froze a fire user, his experience isnt even close to questionable, and flight counters terrakinesis.
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Again Weekly freezing a fire user isn't impressive. Raven had to distract Cinder and Cinder wasn't even using fire at the time. And she doesn't have a high body Temperature like how Ace and Natsu do. Cinder has no resistance to ice manipulation so I don't see how you think that's impressive.
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To provide a bit more input, Kessler stomps people who have been alive since the Salem Witch trials., but of course since they're likely not on his level it's not really a good example either.Knightofannihilation666 said:
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