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Should Saint Seiya characters be placed at 2-C or High 3-A?

Antvasima

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We seem to have a bit of a problem regarding the Saint Seiya characters.

According to our previous character tiering system, Universe level+ was simply a character that could easily destroy or create the 3-Dimensional physical matter within an universe of similar size to our own.

However, this is no longer the case. Currently that category is rated as "High 3-A", whereas "Low 2-C" is a character that can destroy, create, or embody an entire 4-Dimensional spacetime continuum.

The Saint Seiya characters regrettably seem to have kept their old ratings whether this was warranted or not, as we never got around to revising them.

However, it seems unfair to continue to avoid the issue. So, basically, the question is, which Saint Seiya characters should be changed to 3-A or High 3-A, and which ones should be kept at 2-C, and if so, why?

Thanks in advance for any help, and please try to be matter-of-fact objective when evaluating this.
 
Some mid tier characters have time-space breaking attacks. Big Bang = time-space event. Cronus, even though he looks like a fragile girl, was able to destroy all time and space (with prep) and he said that he perceives more spatial dimensions than humans does.
 
Okay. Thank you for the input. So how does this affect other characters?
 
I think gods are (low) 2-C and Cronus likely far higher with prep.
 
Okay. And how high should the saints be rated?

The problem seems to be that they can constitute a threat to the gods, despite at best currently only being rated at level 3-B or 3-A, which does not seem to make sense. Although I suppose that it could be explained as simply Plot Induced Stupidity?
 
Nah, it's just that particularly powerful Saints are capable of manipulating "probability" by burning their cosmos and creating "miracles". What should have been 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 percent in chance, would turn into 1% due to their cosmos manipulating reality and lucked-based spectrums.
 
Well, I know nothing about SS.

But if character is able to destroy time-space = he is 2-C.

So, if character has time-space destroying attacks = he is 2-C.

That's all.

P.S. AP may be >>>>>> durability. So, 2-C characters may be killed by 3-B characters.
 
MOST of the saint seiya universe's attacks is physical and cant even affect the time and space, because their true power is Atomic Destruction.

BUT ! i should point out that even with only the power only affect the physic, there are several saints can fight fairly equal with the gods who have the time-space power ( Kouga vs Saturn)

Also, i wonder, since Kouga's punch has the force of over 100 big bang, would he get downgraded to 3-A ? or stay at 2-C ?
 
Well, if we are only talking about the energy of 100 big bangs, it would likely be High 3-A, if I have not misunderstood.
 
Anyway, thanks for the input. So, should the durability of the gods be downgraded to regular Universe level, while the destructive capacity is kept at Universe level+?
 
So, should the durability of the gods be downgraded to regular Universe level, while the destructive capacity is kept at Universe level+?

This. But, again, I know nothing about SS...
 
Hmm. It is probably best to wait for more input then.
 
I was gonna do a post about updating their stats since a mid tier performed a 2C feat and his clash with the other gold Saint was 2B and their profiles seem a bit outdated.Oh and their profiles at least most are based off universe creation for the 2C department so it's nothing to worry about their pretty accurate as it is.So yeah
 
I'm probably misreading something, but remember that all of space-time has to be destroyed in order for it to be low 2-C, not just have it be a space-time-damaging attack. Otherwise, you'd be seeing a lot more Low 2-C characters running about this wiki.
 
Yup. A character should be able to create or destroy an entire continuum to be 2-C. However, it is often hard to determine which characters that fulfill this requirement, and which that are "just" 3-A.
 
Like DarkLK said: gods should be (low) 2-C and Cronus likely far higher with prep.

Basically that.
 
I'm going with what DarkLK said about the Gods being Low 2-C and Cronus being far higher with prep as well.

About Kouga's Bing Bang attack move. Seeing that it probably doesn't affect Space-Time in any way, the best we could do is either give him at least 3-A or more likely, High 3-A.

Everything else that has been discussed here, i don't know.
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. And how high should the saints be rated?
The problem seems to be that they can constitute a threat to the gods, despite at best currently only being rated at level 3-B or 3-A, which does not seem to make sense. Although I suppose that it could be explained as simply Plot Induced Stupidity?
Click to expand...
Most Saints do not Constitute a Threat to High Level Gods. In fact, they are frequently depicted as massively weaker than most Gods. During the Poseidon Arc, it was through Athena's Cosmos that they defeated Poseidon. Hades was effortleslly stomping the 5 Bronze Boys with 8th Sense + God Cloths, the only one who managed to hurt him was Seiya, and even than that was a suicide" attack. Plus, Seiya (Just like Tenma) is a reincarnation of the Mythological Pegasus Saint, which is part of the reason he could even do that.

Another thing to be considered is the different level of power between the series's Gods, with the higher ones being around Universal / Low Multi-Universal, while minor Gods such as the Oneiroi from Lost Canvas, while much stronger than Gold Saints, are nowhere near those levels. Also, Gods from other Pantheons, such as Egyptian, Aztec or Roman, appear to be weaker than the Greek Gods. For instance, both the Hypermyth and many of the Saint Seiya Spin-Offs mention Ares as an immensely powerful God, capable of rivaling, or even surpassing Athena in raw power, while in Omega Mars had to resort to sealing off Athena's and the 5 Bronze Saints's Cosmos to win.

Finally, Gods in the bodies of human hosts, such as Poseidon as Julian Solo, Hades as Shun / Alone, Mars as Ludwig are vastly weaker than their true bodies, which is another thing that should be evaluated in terms of Tiers.
 
Well, that still does not clear up how 3-D saints are able to harm 4-D (or possibly above in Chronos' case) gods (except for extreme PIS of course)? Do you think that they should be rated as High 3-A, or do you agree with DarkLK that they are Low 2-C and above?
 
I agree with DarLK on the matter. Although, I never seen anything about the High Level Gods being 4-Dimensional (Although I agree that Chronos, as the Primordial Greek God, is probably that or above).
 
Honestly speaking, though, I feel it is the human characters that should have the larger tier Divisions. Currently, it goes like this:

Bronze Saints (Low 6th Sense): 7-C.

Silver Saints (Mid to High 6th Sense): 7-B

Gold Saints: (7th Sense): 4-C

High Level Gold Saint Attacks: 3-C

God Cloth Saints: 3-B to 3-A

Let's go over my problems one by one:

  • 1 Silver Saints should be placed in Tier 7-A at least, and the reason for saying so comes from a Lizard Misty feat from the original manga:
http://www.mangahen.com/saint_seiya/20/04/

http://www.mangahen.com/saint_seiya/20/13/

Lizard Misty provokes a great earthquake, the magnitude of which was enough for Seiya to think that Mt. Fuji was going to burst. Also, it's highly likely that Misty wasn't even trying when he caused the Earthquake, judging by his behavior in his fight against Seiya, where he starts by only using one finger.

  • 2 All Gold Saints being scaled to 4-C. In my eyes, this is problematic as it assumes all of them, due to having awakened the 7th Sense, are equal. However, the 7th Sense functions exactly like the 6th Sense. Cosmos at the level can be burned and raised just like any other, and you can clearly see great differences between Gold Saints, such as when Gemini Saga manhandles Capricorn Shura in Episode G, or how more powerful Libra Dohko and Aries Shion are from, say, Cancer Deathmask. At the very least, some of them should be ranked as Low 4-C, while others as High 4-C.
  • 3 Okay, this is the big one. For the longest time, I've been bothered with how the 8th Sense seems to be ignored in this wiki's Saint Seiya Pages. Much like the 7th Sense, which is achieved by breaking through the limits of the 6th Sense, the 8th Sense is unlocked by rising one's Cosmos higher than the limits of the 7th Sense. In other worlds, it's a higher level of power than the 7th Sense. In order to account for this boost in power, I propose that 8th Sense Cosmos Users should be placed at 3-C or so, while High Level 7th Sense attacks should be placed in High 4-A. However, I think that the issue of 8th Sense Cosmos Tier should have it's own thread.
 
Cronus was actually never harmed or killed.

The only God that was is Hades by a bloodlust Seiya.

And about the Gods well I personally think they're regular 2C with the exception of Hades who has complete control over 9th sense and could be possibly 2B .

I say this because a high tier performed a low 2C feat and in his clash they did a 2B feat.I have translations so I'll make a post about it to hear some input.

But for now yes I agree with DarkL
 
Shaka, a Gold Saint was able to do a 2-C feat. Also it's always been shown in Saint Seiya that characters' durability is usually massively higher then their AP. Also there is Chronos, the God of Time (not the Titan) controls all of time and space and has no physical form. Durability for Gods should be higher than Universe+ if a bronze Saint in the second arc of the series could survive two Galaxian Explosions. Also there have been two universal durability showing for Gold Saints.
 
@Matthew I don't know enough sbout Saint Seiya to make a call about the precise ratings of characters. This thread is strictly intended to evaluate whether or not the higher-tiered characters are 2-C or 3-A?

@Sheoth Adapting them to our scale is easier said than done it appears.

@RouninOtaku Again, universal durability showings are only 3-A, and beyond universal 3-Dimensional durability showings are High 3-A.

@All The problem seems to be the inconsistencies that Saint Seiya illogically makes little difference between regular 3-Dimensional universal feats, and 4-Dimensional universal feats, in terms of matchup situations.
 
True from what I've heard about the series, there are quite a lot of inconsistencies later on. Shaka's feat of destroying innumerable universes would put him even above Hades, despite Shaka not even being as strong as the god saints who are in turn weaker than Hades...
 
@Sheoth Shaka, by his own ways, can't destroy innumerable universes. In chapter 58, Virgo Shijima found in Shaka a very tough opponent, so he used the Ungyo, a sound that produces the end of the Universe. Shaka countered it with the Agyo the manifestation of the birth of the Universe. Was the nature of this two techniques what produced the eternal cycle of reincarnation, creating and destroying innumerable universes.

This was a isolated feat (the multi-verse thing).
 
Sheoth said:
True from what I've heard about the series, there are quite a lot of inconsistencies later on. Shaka's feat of destroying innumerable universes would put him even above Hades, despite Shaka not even being as strong as the god saints who are in turn weaker than Hades...
Click to expand...
Actually, Shaka is the strongest Saint through locking down multiple senses in order to strengthen his senses that involve using his Cosmos. But you're right.
 
The Wandering Shepherd said:
@Sheoth Shaka, by his own ways, can't destroy innumerable universes. In chapter 58, Virgo Shijima found in Shaka a very tough opponent, so he used the Ungyo, a sound that produces the end of the Universe. Shaka countered it with the Agyo the manifestation of the birth of the Universe. Was the nature of this two techniques what produced the eternal cycle of reincarnation, creating and destroying innumerable universes.
This was a isolated feat (the multi-verse thing).
Click to expand...
But was it "Infinite Universes" or "An Infinite Universe"? It can mean the difference between anything ranging from High 3-A to 2-A... Also, does that means that technique destroys the Universe directly, or through chain reaction?

Also, I have a theory for the reason why the Saints can harm Gods in exceptional cases: Their bodies Are 3-D, but they have higher-dimensonal senses. So their AP is Tier 2, but their durability might just be 3A.
 
Hmm. That is an idea. Although that would logically mean that all of the gods could kill each other in a single strike, which seems illogical.
 
Antvasima said:
Hmm. That is an idea. Although that wpuld logically mean that all of the gods could kill each other in a single strike, which seems illogical.
Click to expand...
True... But Athena killed Hades just by stabbing him with her staff, though...
 
The Wandering Shepherd said:
@Sheoth Shaka, by his own ways, can't destroy innumerable universes. In chapter 58, Virgo Shijima found in Shaka a very tough opponent, so he used the Ungyo, a sound that produces the end of the Universe. Shaka countered it with the Agyo the manifestation of the birth of the Universe. Was the nature of this two techniques what produced the eternal cycle of reincarnation, creating and destroying innumerable universes.
This was a isolated feat (the multi-verse thing).
Click to expand...
^ Basically this. And even then, both attacks are more mental / spiritual than physical, and in the Brazillian Scanlations I've seen describe both attacks are "The sound that symbolizes the end of the universe" and "The representation" of the birth of the universe. It was the clash of both attacks with both Saints at the peak of their cosmos that causes the "Creation and Destruction of Innumerable Universes" feat, similarly to how when to Athena Exclamations clash, their power rises exponentially.


So, this is a case where it's reasonable to assume metaphorical and hyperbolical language, as immediatly after mentioning the "creation and destruction of universes", both Shaka and Shijima start talking that they'll be locked in an eternal cycle of reincarnation, and the universal destruction phrase is ignored completely.
 
When Shijima used the Ungyo, was Shun who was aware of the Universe going to be destroyed in the dimension where they were fighting, so probably it wasn't just metaphorical.

And there is no mention of a chain reaction. They only make mention of this techniques as a manifestation of the power of destroying and creating a Universe, repectively. However, they ended creating and destroying innumerable universes. (I've revised the original translation with CHILLVIBEZZ in another thread).
 
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