Yu-Gi-Oh! DM (Canonicity Issues + Changes) II

Continued from Thread:1296841.

User blog:Arigarmy/the power of a childrens card game

I recommend you check that blog before proceeding with the thread, it's a bit of an important source that this thread will use a lot. In short I'll just be explaining changes that'd be made if the following issue is resolved: the canonicity issue between the YGO manga and anime.

As covered from the last thread, we discussed canonicity issues between the manga and anime, and in the end most of the census is that we replace the anime pages with their manga counterparts, since it is the original material. This will heavily impact the pages for some more notable characters with higher stats, such as Exodia, the Gods, and Zorc, though there is a series of feats that may be used to create a new form of scaling if anyone can calc it.

Here are all the differences or things that just don't appear in the manga compared to the anime version:

Yugi
- Yugi doesn't have Luck or Soul Manipulation. No magic, either. And he is definitely not a Peak Human anytime soon.

- The Millenium Puzzle has Clairvoyance abilities.

- Yami Yugi by default is a split personality inside Yugi.

- Yami Yugi has Illusion Creation, Empathic Manipulation, and additional Mind Manipulation through Shadow Games.

- If Yugi is dead, Yami Yugi is dead. If Yugi's soul is erased, Yami Yugi might as well be dead. No exceptions.

- Yami Yugi needs to have some type of contact with the Millenium Puzzle to even bring himself out. He can take it off after he actually comes out, though.

- Atem doesn't have Light Manipulation (I've looked over the scene a couple times, it was more likely Horakthy), nor does he have Resurrection.

- Atem isn't leading armies to "beat magical monsters" who "beat strong people" with his bare fists or anything, that makes no sense at all for him to have a 9-C stat because of that.

Marik
- Still no magic.

- The Millenium Rod gives Marik and additional Mind Manipulation for being capable of shutting down the brain and make one not feel pain. It also gives you Telekinesis, Memory Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, and Paralysis Inducement.

- Possession allows Marik to speak and live through others he has taken control of even when his other self suppresses him (i.e. Bakura and Tea). You could also see this as a form of Clairvoyance since he can do normal stuff whilst seeing through other people.

- Yami Marik is a Split Personality.

- Yami Marik isn't Superhuman just because he's got Yami in his name and that totes makes him comparable to the other people who actually have past selves (I'm assuming this is why someone even gave him that).

- Yami Marik has Darkness Manipulation, Telepathy, Illusion Creation w/Shadow Games, and Existence Erasure (among being able to just bring the erased back no problem).

- Yami Marik does not Lightning Manipulation or Absorption.

Bakura
- Yami Bakura is a split personality

- Yami Bakura isn't Superhuman, it's another Yugi issue where Bakura and Yami Bakura are the same sized people.

- No magic. Shadow Games are still Illusions only.

- The Millenium Ring also gives Possession and Empathic Manipulation.

- Anything that isn't Soul Manipulation and Telekinesis on his page is just... no. God, no.

- Yami Bakura and Yami Yugi share the same weakness of relying on the Millenium Items to appear, but can take it off anytime after coming out.

- Zorc has Energy Projection, though Bakura's page doesn't really separate the two.

- Nothing is there about Thief King Bakura's stuff like Diabound despite him being pictured, which is strange.

- No solar eclipse for Zorc, nor was Kaiba even IN the manga after Battle City (until the very last page) for him to have BEUD attack Zorc.

Egyptian Gods and Exodia
- The Egyptian Gods have a few storm feats in Battle City.

- Exodia didn't stand a single chance against Zorc, there was no "somewhat match" (that wording is so shoddy IMO).

- The Egyptian Gods didn't didn't even fight Zorc, there was no "somewhat competing". That shouldn't make them the same stat through some backwards nonsense scaling, Zorc had already said that he was stronger than the Gods.

This thing is nearly done if the changes are made, the only thing that's left to discuss (outside of what's already been mentioned) is confirming the changes for Bakura, Marik, and Yugi.

I think that for now, we should begin to implement changes. If someone finally decides to calc the feats, I'll go ahead and do those revisions as well.

I completely agree with SD.

We can't keep going back and forth on stuff for over 2+ threads. We should start making chnges now \.

Sounds reasonable. With wiki policy as is, doesn't seem like there's much other course of action. (Ah well. I guess I could always try making blog profiles & such to see how the canon character's anime-only content might look.)

Okay, someone get me up to speed, what going on? Short and sweet preferably

Short story is most of the abilities and feats were non-canon, so now we're trying to fix up the pages once and for all.

So, what point are you discussing now?

1. Seeing if anyone can even calc the God card stuff

2. Just confirming if we agree with changes I've proposed to any non-Zorc/God character. Seems to be a resounding yes for it, though.

@Ari What changes for non god chaarcters?

It's explained in the differences section. Atem would probably lose 9-C, same goes for the Yami variants of the others since all Yami versions are equal in physicality and height. Also they're gonna be called Dark instead of Yami, that's how it went in the manga. Also it's gonna change from Bakura Ryou to Ryo Bakura, which is the manga name.


Lots of abilities would be lost for most characters, but other abilities would be introduced and replaced the ones that aren't present in the manga but were in the anime.
Thief King Bakura would probably gain Diabound (and his plethora of hax) into his stats, actually never asked what this type of feat would gain for it since its one its only feats. Bakura and Zorc would be separated into their keys, as they should.

Ohhhh i thought you meant non-god monsters

Dark Magician (and maybe Red-Eyes) and Diabound are equal, what'll happen to other monsters is unrelated to what's happening here.

Oh, and Exodia isn't really going to scale off anything anytime soon.

Referring exclusively to Millenium/Memory World Exodia in the manga, of course, right?

Yes, I'm referring to Mahado, but Zorc still mentions that that the Dark Magician card is still Mahado's ka stored on the paper. Would probably be wise to mention that the Dark Magician we may use if we ever give it a page is Mahado-exclusive.

Is Mahad even a canonical YGO Card?

@Marco Shark: Possibly... sort of?

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Palladium_Oracle_Mahad http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Card_Triviaalladium_Oracle_Mahad says:

This monster is based on Mahad, one of the High Priests.

• Just as this monster is based on Mahad, "Maiden with Eyes of Blue" is based on Kisara, the carrier of "Blue-Eyes White Drago". Similarly, both cards are able to Summo their respective monster from the hand, Deck, or Graveyard.
• The needle-like jewelry on this monster's belt look like the pointers found on the Millennium Ring, possibly as a reference to Mahad being the user of the ring while he was alive.

Interestingly, it, along with Blue-Eyes Chaos MAX Dragon appear in DSOD. However, I'm unsure about POM being Mahad, with that in mind. MwEoB also does not appear in DSOD. & I'm unsure being mostly confined to duels helps them much.

In any case, POM & Mahad being the same entity.... I'm unsure. They definitely do have a lot in common, but....

I mean, i tought it was confirmed Dark Magician is Pegasus´s representation of Mahad.

Maybe? I can't confirm that for you, mostly since I haven't fact checked enough, sadly.

But Pegasus was primarily the leader of Industrial Illusions. While he did seek out stone tablets & it's possible he searched out Dark Magician's, most of what his company did was adapting them into cards.

Would Mahad's ka be on the paper of Yugi's Dark Magician card? I'm very unclear on that & if anything supports it. I recall a scene of Dark Magician in the pharoah's memories being sworn to protect the pharoah, & not harming Yugi, but I'm unsure it was related to the card Yugi owned.

I also doubt the adaption of tablets to cards II did went anything like with it did with the Egyptian Gods when they adapted Dark Magician; I know that in the anime, pretty much everyone involved in every stage of adapting the Gods to cards were killed by the Egyptian Gods themselves; Ultimately, Pegasus had to paint the cards himself. Good thing he was both a skilled painter AND the chosen holder of the Millenium Items.

Point being I'm unsure that, unlike the Egyptian Gods, there were signs of Mahad's ka going into the Dark Magician card, & even if it did, we know there are at least 3 DM cards in-universe, albeit, seemingly showing another DM. Are their ka just weaker/nonexistent?

There are some signs that some cards have spirits, & if the Egyptian Gods can get their energy/spirits put into cards when being adapted, maybe other monsters can, too? Presumably it just takes being a lot stronger to manifest more distinctly.

Sorry for rambling.

Marco Shark said:

Is Mahad even a canonical YGO Card?

Click to expand...

He is literally the Dark Magician.

Mahad is the anime name (or more the usual 4Kids rearranging). Mahado is the manga and original character that sacrificed his life to fuse with his ka and become the Dark Magician.

Mahad's card is nothing more than a reference because it's not even used in any of the shows or mangas, just being a reference card. We already discussed that we're ditching card art/name/lore -> manga/anime scaling if we also ditch the anime -> manga scaling.

bump

Do you think there is another feat for the Gods that we can use as a placeholder for now?

Unless you want to take them wrecking the shit out of Diabound, you're gonna have some pretty weak Gods.

Doesnt Bakura have actual magic, tho?

That game in which he put everyone inside some dolls for the rpg game? That wasnt an illusion. And iirc he had a collection of people trapped in dolls.

Reading the blog and checking the sources I've linked save minutes of questions that can already be answered.

The answer was no, just the clarify.

well, duh, I already know it was Soul manipulation. I simply thought it was "magic", you know.

Illusion Creation can be a type of magic I guess? It's more just specifically the Illusion bits though, Bakura just seals souls into other objects. He's not magically controlling things.

Shouldnt all of Yugi's monsters count to his AP just like Pokemon do for Red (Pokemon)?

Guess what?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:SomebodyData/Obelisk_the_Storm_Maker

(Also downgrade for E-Hero Thunder Giant in the bottom)

since the one we have already in the anime verse feats lets just make new ones for the manga continuity, which DDoD is part of.

and not to mention theres also manga jade and yusei

@Marco

Eh. They're holograms for the most part, God cards on the other hand just do whatever because they're actually pretty physical. But this isn't "Red's team", this is Yugi Muto the character with a lot of hax.

@Data

cool

@Crzer

Manga is the original canon of Duel Monsters, though. GX and 5D's manga really shouldn't be a part of this considering the anime versions are the first canon of it.

i thought so but then yugi and others was mentioned and seen in them probably referring to the manga as well or no specific version.

Nah this is just the original canon for Duel Monsters.

Actually now that I think about it, not only is the AP of the Gods/Zorc affected, it'd also be the Speed. I don't recall anything special about Speed, though.

Hmmm, I guess unknown speed for now

bump on a stick

Have those values been accepted? I'm about to finish a test page for a new Bakura in a bit.

lemme check

damn, looks like its dead empty for other support. so much for obscure verse revisions.

Thing is, the verse isn't very obscure and I remember Yugioh actually having a lot of comments on the solar eclipse calc :/

But its okay, I can use this as time to sharpen the calc if needed to, when I have time to.

So, are we giving the anime versions their own pages later?

i dont think we can by the alternate canon guidelines

SomebodyData said:

Thing is, the verse isn't very obscure and I remember Yugioh actually having a lot of comments on the solar eclipse calc :/

Click to expand...

Neither is JoJo, but look how long that took.