Yu-Gi-Oh! DM (Canonicity Issues + Big Changes)

User blog:Arigarmy/the power of a childrens card game

I recommend you check that blog before proceeding with the thread, it's a bit of an important source that this thread will use a lot. In short I'll just be explaining changes that'd be made if the following issue is resolved: the canonicity issue between the YGO manga and anime.

There needs to be a clear choice on what we choose as the dominant source for feats and whatnot. Some may prefer the anime because well simply not a lot of people like reading it has some exclusive feats like Zorc doing that eclipse that gives them that sweet sweet high number stat. Doesn't happen in the manga, but I'll cover all the differences later.

I personally prefer the original source, but there are a lot of arguments that can be made against it or supporting it, it's basically a DBS dtype ordeal of "what the **** do we do".

Here are all the differences or things that just don't appear in the manga compared to the anime version:

Yugi
- Yugi doesn't have Luck or Soul Manipulation. No magic, either. And he is definitely not a Peak Human anytime soon.

- The Millenium Puzzle has Clairvoyance abilities.

- Yami Yugi by default is a split personality inside Yugi.

- Yami Yugi has Illusion Creation, Empathic Manipulation, and additional Mind Manipulation through Shadow Games.

- If Yugi is dead, Yami Yugi is dead. If Yugi's soul is erased, Yami Yugi might as well be dead. No exceptions.

- Yami Yugi needs to have some type of contact with the Millenium Puzzle to even bring himself out. He can take it off after he actually comes out, though.

- Atem doesn't have Light Manipulation (I've looked over the scene a couple times, it was more likely Horakthy), nor does he have Resurrection.

- Atem isn't leading armies to "beat magical monsters" who "beat strong people" with his bare fists or anything, that makes no sense at all for him to have a 9-C stat because of that.

Marik
- Still no magic.

- The Millenium Rod gives Marik and additional Mind Manipulation for being capable of shutting down the brain and make one not feel pain. It also gives you Telekinesis, Memory Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, and Paralysis Inducement.

- Possession allows Marik to speak and live through others he has taken control of even when his other self suppresses him (i.e. Bakura and Tea). You could also see this as a form of Clairvoyance since he can do normal stuff whilst seeing through other people.

- Yami Marik is a Split Personality.

- Yami Marik isn't Superhuman just because he's got Yami in his name and that totes makes him comparable to the other people who actually have past selves (I'm assuming this is why someone even gave him that).

- Yami Marik has Darkness Manipulation, Telepathy, Illusion Creation w/Shadow Games, and Existence Erasure (among being able to just bring the erased back no problem).

- Yami Marik does not Lightning Manipulation or Absorption.

Bakura
- Yami Bakura is a split personality

- Yami Bakura isn't Superhuman, it's another Yugi issue where Bakura and Yami Bakura are the same sized people.

- No magic. Shadow Games are still Illusions only.

- The Millenium Ring also gives Possession and Empathic Manipulation.

- Anything that isn't Soul Manipulation and Telekinesis on his page is just... no. God, no.

- Yami Bakura and Yami Yugi share the same weakness of relying on the Millenium Items to appear, but can take it off anytime after coming out.

- Zorc has Energy Projection, though Bakura's page doesn't really separate the two.

- Nothing is there about Thief King Bakura's stuff like Diabound despite him being pictured, which is strange.

- No solar eclipse for Zorc, nor was Kaiba even IN the manga after Battle City (until the very last page) for him to have BEUD attack Zorc.

Egyptian Gods and Exodia
- The Egyptian Gods have a few storm feats in Battle City.

- Exodia didn't stand a single chance against Zorc, there was no "somewhat match" (that wording is so shoddy IMO).

- The Egyptian Gods didn't didn't even fight Zorc, there was no "somewhat competing". That shouldn't make them the same stat through some backwards nonsense scaling, Zorc had already said that he was stronger than the Gods.

I won't discuss actual changes that would happen until this first topic gets discussed. God help this verse's soul.

As far as i know, no one has added the Dsod feats and no one seems to have any idea if duel monsters should have real power in the "real world".


Because, i heard Kyle say Dsod Kaiba and Yugi are at bare mininum 3-A.

I am of the opinion that the anime should have separate keys or separate profiles from the manga incarnations. Alternatively, composite profiles.

I believe that, given how vastly the 2 continuities differ -Ex: Pegasus not being dead after Duelist Kingdom in the anime- that there is basis to do so:

https://youtu.be/XJ2FpyX0ysA?t=6m57s Please excuse the foreign language dub episode. I chose it for the resolution, seemingly unaltered video speed, & being on Youtube, which provides ease of video access. Also, I doubt video language may alter any feat calculations.

At 6 minutes & 51 seconds into that video (As linked in the timestamp.), Yami Marik breaks open a door from off-screen, triggering alarms. He then uses the Millenium Rod to make a lot of electricity/lightning, making machinery explode, power fail & a system down occur, disabling the controls.

This is relevant, because if we used anime only (& filler, like that), it would scale to Yami Bakura & Pegasus:

In Duelist Kingdom, Bakura's Millenium Ring & Pegasus's Millenium Eye clash after Pegasus & Yugi's Duel. Supposedly, Pegasus had been weakened from his Shadow Duel at the time.

In Battle City, Bakura's Millenium Ring & Yami Marik's Millenium Rod clash in the same manner. As far as I know, there is little reason to believe Bakura used the Eye; He doesn't use it or any of its powers in the series, so it seems unlikely to me that he had an advantage via 2vs1 Millenium Items. (Although YM using the Rod AND Ring brings up the possibility of using 2 Millenium Items at once, albeit, not for... laser duel(?) purposes.)


ANYWAY, as mentioned, the eclipse feat doesn't happen in the manga. Presumably, the Gods would need new feats to go from if we didn't use anime stuff.

Obelisk feat: Obelisk is summoned in a duel, lightning erupts, purple... light(?) explodes out, & a bigger-than-buildings images of Obelisk appears & then disappears. Episode 60. LINK: http://************/Anime/Yu-Gi-Oh-Duel-Monsters-Sub/Episode-060?id=50602&s=default DIRECT LINK: https://www1954.playercdn.net/87/1/T1YCKG8tJIpE9HgUxRmf9Q/1516491355/170509/752nwRI6YBgCMS1.mp4 (I would not have posted those links if I could have found it on Youtube. Hopefully there's no trouble.)

Light, lightning, & flying rocks upon Obelisk's summoning. Apologies for the foreign & poor resolution. Using Youtube for ease of access. LINK: https://youtu.be/qrWEd8cqbs8?t=4m44s

Same episode, Obelisk punches through Mirror Force, defeats the Rare Hunters, & a shot of the city is shown, where light erupts, then an explosion is created, with a shockwave going over the city, & I THINK the explosion explodes into a bigger explosion.

When Slifer is summoned, the beam that shoots up from the card disperses a small amount of clouds. Pink lightning comes down. The once clear sky inexplicably turns cloudy with no transitional stages shown... & then it's briefly green & swirly. LINK: https://youtu.be/JVfpMl_VbMY?t=12m (Note: This & their supposed episode 129 are numbered incorrectly. Nonetheless, feat is shown, so video is linked.)

OTHER FEAT FROM THAT EPISODE: Slifer's attack misses. The beam goes upwards, hits the clouds, then shockwaves go outwards through them. Lightning comes down near the blimp, on which power flickers. Through a window behind Tea, a large amount of stormclouds, presumably in a ring shape move outwards. (Yes, that part of the feat really is only shown from a window behind Tea.) It also then brings power back to the blimp, as Mokuba discovers. The sky above Kaiba & Yugi is still cloudy later, however. LINK: https://youtu.be/JVfpMl_VbMY?t=15m8s


Those Egyptian God feats aside, I'd like to mention that in Yugi vs Bakura, the duel ends with Bakura being attacked directly by Slifer, & he's still alive until Marik defeats him with Ra.

During Marik vs Mai, while Mai is restrained, Joey goes to block Ra's attack, then later, Pharoah does, too.

And of course, in Joey vs Marik, Joey survives Ra's direct attack as well.

Manga God cards should be scaled from Dsod, like how Obelisk broke thru an alternate dimension.

Do we have a set rule for differing manga and anime? The only problem I see besides that is that overall, as soon as you go beyond, the manga and anime timelines completely diverge, with the only series having any similarities is the original, to the point where in manga 5ds the Crimson Dragon is evil. At that point, it's not so much filler as separate continuity

Luckily for us, the Yugioh R fixes the entire Yugioh GX Pegasus inconsistency.

Like I said before, I think the canon should be based on the involvement of the original creator, ie:

Yugioh (Manga) > Yugioh R > Yugioh BBT > Yugioh Transcend Game > Yugioh DSoD > Yugioh GX > Yugioh 5Ds > Yugioh Zexal > Yugioh Arc V > Yugioh VRains

It should be mentioned that BBT, Transcend Game, R, and DSoD cannot exist alongside the original anime, there are major inconsistencies that would destroy it, which implies the anime is non-canon completely.

Neither can Zexal and 5Ds actually fit together, but it seems that Arc-V is basically acting like a retcon for that issue.

We can make manga profiles for GX and beyond, since those diverge enough to warrant it. The original anime is only a few feats and a filler season that has no impact on the characters afterwards.

How does BBT make Anime Yugi non canon?

Its just Season 3 Yugi.

So, would the other animes still be canon

Well, its either Manga Yugi or Anime Yugi.

Or a vs battles exclusive form that makes some differences, just like Goku.

Paradox was gonna wipe out card games to avoid the destruction of the Earth, which makes sense considering quite literally every enemy afterwards uses cards completely.

Except for the Season 4 villains (Anime only), where it is more of a tool than the main weapon, meaning if canon to it, Paradox literally only changes the cause of its destruction and removes the only way defeat them.

The Entire world...or card games? Tough choice.

@Yobo yes

How would paradox know of Season 4 aniways?

Other than the fact that it would be a major news everywhere in the world? Even the events of GX didn't have that and he knew that.

TBH, I'm uncertain DSoD follows the manga. Why is it considered to be a connected canon with the manga? I'm not very knowledgeable on the exact events of the manga, but did anything like this happen, to quote the Yugioh Wiki?: "Yami Bakura is awakened, while the Millennium Ring fuses into Bakura's body, disappearing under his skin."

Also, regarding the Egyptian Gods, who lack a Tier 5 feat if we don't use the anime only eclipse, they have some basis for scaling to Leviathan/Geh/The Orichalcos God, who has a 5-C Feat . Notably, it had been getting power from the God Cards & a bunch of souls over time throughout the arc.

If my memory serves, during the Orichalcos arc, after the God Cards are retrieved, they are described as powerless. Nonetheless, after lots of other monsters futilely attack Leviathan -including the Legendary Knights, 1 multiplied with Multiply- the Gods are summoned to go into battle.

There is a problem, of course, that, at some point, earlier, Leviathan was weaked by the monsters -Duel Spirits from their own world- & people thinking good thoughts, as it is fueled by the darkness in people's hearts.

Similarly, the Egyptian Gods apparently got powered up by the light in people's hearts.

After some difficulty, with a beam clash between the Gods & Leviathan -who utterly dwarfs them in size- they do win, however.

So... amped post-drain Gods scale to weakened Leviathan?

Also, on the topic of Exodia, I'm going to mention this GX character:

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Adrian_Gecko

Quoting the Yugioh Wiki:

However, Adrian ultimately wins by playing "Rage of the Forbidden One", negating Aster's "Plasma Discharger". This allows him sacrifice Echo, win the Duel, and release Exodia - who becomes his servant. With Exodia's power, Adrian is free from Yubel's, and thus the Devil Arm fades away and is replaced with his own.

This happens in an Alternate Dimension from GX's main one, so I'm almost entirely sure that this is a real Exodia. Although, that may make scaling it to Millenium World Exodia dubious, Yugi being in GX or not....

Even without that scaling, though, Exodia is a big guy. Alternatively, here's an image to help give you an idea:

Adrian Gecko/Amon Garam on Exodia's shoulder, Jaden/Judai Yuki on right, apparently sitting down on rock formations.

If the duels in this alternate dimension count for anything scaling-wise, Exodia overwhelms Destiny Hero - Plasma's attempt to attack. During Adrian vs Yubel, Exodius (Not Exodia, sadly.) battles the Sacred Beasts. But probably not relevant, alternate dimension or not.

I see.

So, Manga Yugi is:

Manga and movies.

Anime yugi would be:

All anime seasons and Pyramid of Light.

Based on Kaiba still wanting to duel Yugi, in the anime, he was at peace.

That 5-C feat is anime only too

Exodia's power as stated quite literally countless times, is based on the willpower of the user, so it varies hard.

I'm not even sure if Pyramid of Light is canon to anything actually, its antagonist replaces Zorc's place, something no version has.

Well, in the Pyramid of Light movie, they could use all game card mechanics in real life, like magic cards and monsters.

Wouldnt that give them absurdly OP hax?

Ironically enough, no. None of the cards have their abilities, and two powerful Toon monsters get killed by a small wall falling on them, it would make regular monsters 9-C to 9-B and everything stronger "At least 9-B", with the exception of the antagonist without monsters.

Well, actually...The toon monsters died because Pegasus didnt activate Toon World, making them die after a while, and he also says that himself.


And yeah, Anubis did use Magic cards to screw over Yugi and Kaiba´s deck.

Yeah they die after a while, but the wall killed them before that actually happened tho.

He did? I mean, not that it matters, that movie hardly warrant profiles.

I'm aware the 5-C feat is anime only. Just putting it there in case. Plus it still applies to Leviathan who has a bunch of hax; If I had to try to list right now?

Leviathan's powers: Soul Absorption / Power Draining, Absorption on contact, Danmaku via shards, as well as Orichalcos Stone bombardment (like it did to Atlantis) Flight, Mind Manipulation via Orichalcos Stones (brainwashed/corrupted the Atlanteans & their king), probably Immortality (Stated to exist/never die, IIRC, as long as there's darkness in people's hearts; Even after being assaulted, weakened, & beaten by the Gods, Pharoah still had to get rid of the darkness in his own heart to take it down.), & I'm pretty sure the souls it absorbed -like Yugi's & Pegasus's- were in some kind of portal, which Leviathan emerged from, so portal creation? Probably some breath weapons, &/or Energy Manipulation of some kind, if my memory serves, too.

Also, Weather Manipulation, obviously. Only reason I haven't made a profile for it yet is I'm too lazy.

Also, unsure if it's relevant, but earlier I posted a bunch of other lesser Egyptian God feats & mentioned some Millenium Item anime only stuff. (Also, I THINK there's a Duelist Kingdom episode where Bakura uses Mind Manipulation on Tristan, Tea

In any case, I think it's clear that I support separate anime & manga profiles.

Also, regarding anime only Millenium Item stuff, episode 28 has Yami Bakura wipe everyone's memories/brainwash them. Oh & Pegasus did... something. Quoting the Yugioh Wiki: "They are soon confronted by Pegasus, who uses his Millennium Eye to transport them to another dimension. "

That or it was a vision he showed them in their minds with his eye, I guess?

Anyways, what about Dsod?

Imo, it seems off that we should regard different timelines as one being non-canon, but I'll wait here

SomebodyData said:

Based on Kaiba still wanting to duel Yugi, in the anime, he was at peace.
That 5-C feat is anime only too

Exodia's power as stated quite literally countless times, is based on the willpower of the user, so it varies hard.

Click to expand...

I also should ask: Are we sure this applies to the Exodia in Yugioh GX? It's from the part of Season 3 that takes place in an alternate dimension, & this Exodia, AFAIK, isn't a product of anyone's Ka or Ba. I'm not sure where it came from before, but Adrian unlocked it -literally, it was locked up- via sacrificing a girl who loved him, Echo, & then became Adrian's SERVANT. Not something tied to his spirit, I'd perhaps fallaciously assume.

Admittedly, that possibly-not-a-KA-monster makes its AP questionable, but it should still have AP via size, no? It's solid enough for Adrian to ride it, & the ground shakes visibly -well, the screen does- when it walks.

I don't think he was a Ka monsters originally though, he was a guardian of Egypt that was sealed

Yobobojojo said:

I don't think he was a Ka monsters originally though, he was a guardian of Egypt that was sealed

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Would its origin be the same in a different dimension, in an episode of GX? This Exodia was locked up & released in the same world where Scarr, Scout of Dark World was a walking, talking duelist. (For that matter, I think Doom Dozer would actually have AP via size there, too....)

@Yobobojojo: I think we should account for both manga & anime. We are an indexing site, & I feel it would be negligent to ignore feats from adaptations. I would prefer alternate keys, alternate profiles, &/or composite profiles. Any of those is fine with me.

Imaginym said:

Yobobojojo said:

I don't think he was a Ka monsters originally though, he was a guardian of Egypt that was sealed

Click to expand...

Would its origin be the same in a different dimension, in an episode of GX? This Exodia was locked up & released in the same world where Scarr, Scout of Dark World was a walking, talking duelist. (For that matter, I think Doom Dozer would actually have AP via size there, too....)
@Yobobojojo: I think we should account for both manga & anime. We are an indexing site, & I feel it would be negligent to ignore feats from adaptations. I would prefer alternate keys, alternate profiles, &/or composite profiles. Any of those is fine with me.

Click to expand...

I mean, if we are going by duel monster spirit universe feats, Exodia has infinite power and dwarfs multi star entities by incalculable amounts. I'm a bit unsure.

@Yobobojojo: Wait, what? How? IIRC, Yubel's 2-C AP was via Super Polymerization, so I doubt it was that. If it was, why?

Essentially, currently we are scaling Duel Spirits world to in universe card lore. Card Lore has monsters like Galaxy Serpent at level 2 and Galaxy destroyers as well. Exodia by its lore in card is something along the lines of being infinite in power and dwarfing all other beings.

Would we apply that? I mean, I see few issues with that & Adrian Gecko having Exodia as his servant, even if that's the case.

Imaginym said:

Would we apply that? I mean, I see few issues with that & Adrian Gecko having Exodia as his servant, even if that's the case.

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I'm not sure, but that's just based on the recent accepted GX revisions. What are those issues though?

I obviously agree with making a clear distinction between the anime and manga, as well as using the original canon (manga, in this case).

Also, it's been a while, but did Exodia ever do anything to scale somewhat to Zorc in the manga? Or did he get one-shot? Because canon Zorc scales to stuff in DSoD, which I'm pretty sure places him somewhere within lower-end Tier 2, if I'm remembering correctly.

Eh, scaling card game lore to Duel Monsters Spirit World would mean cross continuity scaling, no? Also, maybe magic/PIS, but Exodia was literally locked behind locked doors. With chains, & actual locks. Those holding it bac- Well, them holding it back would probably be improper, be the AP from scaling, or from calculating AP via size, I suppose.

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:

I obviously agree with making a clear distinction between the anime and manga, as well as using the original canon (manga, in this case).
Also, it's been a while, but did Exodia ever do anything to scale somewhat to Zorc in the manga? Or did he get one-shot? Because canon Zorc scales to stuff in DSoD, which I'm pretty sure places him somewhere within lower-end Tier 2, if I'm remembering correctly.

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That's why I advised you to read the blog before anything because it explains everything. Exodia attacks him, yes, but Zorc no-sells.

Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:

I obviously agree with making a clear distinction between the anime and manga, as well as using the original canon (manga, in this case).
Also, it's been a while, but did Exodia ever do anything to scale somewhat to Zorc in the manga? Or did he get one-shot? Because canon Zorc scales to stuff in DSoD, which I'm pretty sure places him somewhere within lower-end Tier 2, if I'm remembering correctly.

Click to expand...

I think the agreement was we should assume that he only warped the planet, although Tier 2 would be consistent for Exodia as being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Galaxy Busters

God, this is literally what I proposed in my first threads ever, that got rejected pretty hard. This is a strange one

Also I want to point out that this is also revising Yugi, Marik, and Bakura among other things. I'm not sure why we're getting into GX territory already if this is just the manga stuff and/or splitting into manga/anime profiles.

Because by its nature the largest amount of deviances we need to account for between timelines is there.