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True @Ari. Hmmm well I guess we'll have to wait.
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Yu-Gi-Oh! DM (Canonicity Issues + Changes) II
- Thread starter Arigarmy
- Start date
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Of course we can. Anime and manga are different enough and people are fine.
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It is disappointing that we can't give anime versions their own pages. Don't we often do composite for Pokemon & Digimon, given how split apart the feats of the characters are? Could something like that be done for Yugioh, given how spread out across the series feats are?
Frankly, I find it a bit odd that the reason we can't have separate anime profiles, NOR anime KEYS is that it'd be "messy" or add too many profiles. Is it that much extra work, especially if there are people already willing to do it? And given how much we often get new profiles, is a few new ones for a notable, long-running 'verse with multiple series that much of an issue?
& I understand concerns about having too many keys & looking messy, but does that mean we should sacrifice accuracy by neglecting indexing data for the sake of appearances?
Not to mention, our criteria for separate version involves seeing if storylines, characterization, etc. are different. Yet those things rarely have an impact on statistics, powers, & abilities & the like; We index statistics & powers, not stories, right? So shouldn't different hax, feats, &/or tiers be a basis for different pages, or at least, keys?
Trying to be more on-topic again, how would we handle feats from Capsule Monsters & Yugioh: The Movie? How do we handle Yugioh: Duelist/Duel Monsters having feats or such if they appear in later series like GX, or if they have any in BBT?
Also, on the topic of Egyptian God feats, don't our rules permit using anime versions of manga scenes for calculation purposes? If so, maybe Slifer's storm feats as it was portrayed in the anime could be better suited for calc-ing?
Frankly, I find it a bit odd that the reason we can't have separate anime profiles, NOR anime KEYS is that it'd be "messy" or add too many profiles. Is it that much extra work, especially if there are people already willing to do it? And given how much we often get new profiles, is a few new ones for a notable, long-running 'verse with multiple series that much of an issue?
& I understand concerns about having too many keys & looking messy, but does that mean we should sacrifice accuracy by neglecting indexing data for the sake of appearances?
Not to mention, our criteria for separate version involves seeing if storylines, characterization, etc. are different. Yet those things rarely have an impact on statistics, powers, & abilities & the like; We index statistics & powers, not stories, right? So shouldn't different hax, feats, &/or tiers be a basis for different pages, or at least, keys?
Trying to be more on-topic again, how would we handle feats from Capsule Monsters & Yugioh: The Movie? How do we handle Yugioh: Duelist/Duel Monsters having feats or such if they appear in later series like GX, or if they have any in BBT?
Also, on the topic of Egyptian God feats, don't our rules permit using anime versions of manga scenes for calculation purposes? If so, maybe Slifer's storm feats as it was portrayed in the anime could be better suited for calc-ing?
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I don't see why we have stats for every version of Pokemon and Digimon but Yugioh must be manga only. Trikes me as purism.
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^THIS^Matthew Schroeder said:
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Following up on the seemingly shared sentiments of mine, Matt & Weekly's, I'd like to quote our https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Alternative_Canon_and_Composite_Profiles page regarding composite profiles.
"It can also be justified if a certain fiction has multiple spinoffs of dubious canonicity, for which quantifiable feats are scarce, such as most Pokémon and Digimon characters. It should preferably be limited to franchises that actually need it for sufficient scaling, if the different versions are too dispersed and incoherent to make a clear picture of individually"
Does Yu-Gi-Oh! not fit such criteria?
"It can also be justified if a certain fiction has multiple spinoffs of dubious canonicity, for which quantifiable feats are scarce, such as most Pokémon and Digimon characters. It should preferably be limited to franchises that actually need it for sufficient scaling, if the different versions are too dispersed and incoherent to make a clear picture of individually"
Does Yu-Gi-Oh! not fit such criteria?
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- Thread starter
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They're different I guess but what quantifies as "different enough", you have two or three arcs and thats about it aside from minor differences. Pokemon and Digimon have drastically different stories depending on the material, this is just an adaptation with the occassional filler in it.Matthew Schroeder said:
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If theyre not that different, why separate them?
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Even if the manga is the original canon, the anime arguably took an at least slightly different route, with multiple filler arcs, 2 anime canon movies, the Capsule Monsters spin-off, apparent connections to future series like Yugi vs Jaden. And the anime often has card lore seemingly matching the IRL card lore, even for Normal Monsters, unlike the Manga. Admittedly, that may simply be merchandizing.
& there's a bunch of minor differences like Pegasus dying but showing up in later arcs, Bakura travelling with Joey in Battle City, Duke's father being uninvolved.... As well as anime-only scenes added to canon arcs.... Some of the duels having different premises like Panik using rope, not flamethrowers, Kaiba & Yugi being chained by their duel disks during their Battle City tag duel, Marik having Tea swallow a poison capsule to force Joey & Yugi to duel.... (Did Manga Yugi & Bakura duel with souls put in cards in Duelist Kingdom? Did manga Marik brainwash Keith forcing Yugi to duel him & then rebuild the puzzle after in a burning warehouse?)
The anime definitely has its own, original content, & seems to connect to some of its spin-offs, & arguably acknowledges the real life card game somewhat.
The stories & characterization don't always differ that much, however, even if there are feats -in & out of canon storylines- in the anime that are absent from the manga.
But apparently, the manga being the original canon & the lack of story & characterization differences makes much of the non-manga content unfit for keys or pages.
& there's a bunch of minor differences like Pegasus dying but showing up in later arcs, Bakura travelling with Joey in Battle City, Duke's father being uninvolved.... As well as anime-only scenes added to canon arcs.... Some of the duels having different premises like Panik using rope, not flamethrowers, Kaiba & Yugi being chained by their duel disks during their Battle City tag duel, Marik having Tea swallow a poison capsule to force Joey & Yugi to duel.... (Did Manga Yugi & Bakura duel with souls put in cards in Duelist Kingdom? Did manga Marik brainwash Keith forcing Yugi to duel him & then rebuild the puzzle after in a burning warehouse?)
The anime definitely has its own, original content, & seems to connect to some of its spin-offs, & arguably acknowledges the real life card game somewhat.
The stories & characterization don't always differ that much, however, even if there are feats -in & out of canon storylines- in the anime that are absent from the manga.
But apparently, the manga being the original canon & the lack of story & characterization differences makes much of the non-manga content unfit for keys or pages.
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- Thread starter
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boy you what
The manga came first, anything the anime did that wasn't a part of the original is essentially a big throw into the trash can. I get the whole alternate canon rules and that stuff, but there's a lot that it has and doesn't have that puts it in a bit of a gray zone.
We could use 2 if it wasn't just exclusive to Marvel and DC. So therefore if we have to go to 4 and 5 since it's one of the only ones that specifically mention non Marvel/DC stuff, then the anime Yugi Muto is a bit of a nono. Here's why:
"yet most versions of Son Goku contained in games such as Xenoverse and Shin Budokai should not, as the only difference they hold from Canon Goku lies in their extent of power."
The same thing can be said with the cast, yeah the story is a bit different than before, but nothing else short of just a good ol sweet big number difference. The only thing that could ever really suit this is the whole popularity clause, which is then retconned in the next sentence of "containing their own feats, a different role and purpose, and a new desig", something the anime only has 1 of 3.
The manga came first, anything the anime did that wasn't a part of the original is essentially a big throw into the trash can. I get the whole alternate canon rules and that stuff, but there's a lot that it has and doesn't have that puts it in a bit of a gray zone.
We could use 2 if it wasn't just exclusive to Marvel and DC. So therefore if we have to go to 4 and 5 since it's one of the only ones that specifically mention non Marvel/DC stuff, then the anime Yugi Muto is a bit of a nono. Here's why:
"yet most versions of Son Goku contained in games such as Xenoverse and Shin Budokai should not, as the only difference they hold from Canon Goku lies in their extent of power."
The same thing can be said with the cast, yeah the story is a bit different than before, but nothing else short of just a good ol sweet big number difference. The only thing that could ever really suit this is the whole popularity clause, which is then retconned in the next sentence of "containing their own feats, a different role and purpose, and a new desig", something the anime only has 1 of 3.
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Should i make a thread about anime yugi
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Im asking for a reason, kid.
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- Thread starter
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Why did you call me kid? You didn't even need ask if you observed the situation my guy. If anyone was actually going to do it, it'd probably be Data, me, or IDK Weekly? No offense it's more just going to the guy who had the most work done for it in the situation?
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If they're not that different make keys. There are Digimon with nine keys in their profile. No excuse not to do it.
Also stop being so fixated on the regulation. Just ignore it for this. Have
Also stop being so fixated on the regulation. Just ignore it for this. Have
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^This. Although in Digimon's case, all those keys are cano considering the franchises' canonicity. However, I don't see an issue with allowing both Anime and Manga for Yu-Gi-Oh at all.Matthew Schroeder said:
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Also. The anime is a hundred times more popular and whenever people debate Yu-Gi-Oh on the internet it is with the Anime. Having jusr the manga for a sense of purity would be alienating.
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I honestly don't see much of an issue for having both anime stats and manga stats. And number of keys should not matter whatsoever.
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This is somewhat just repeating my prior stance, but I agree. Perhaps it's appeal to popularity/notability, or such, but the anime is the more well-known, & not including it is a bit alienating. Even if it isn't entirely canon, it has a lot of material in its non-canon, & the spin-offs.
I also agree very much with Dragonmasterxyz. Neatness is nice, but, IMHO, it doesn't seem right when the only reason some indexing, documentation, or other info-gathering stops for no other reason than "it's too messy".
When there's support by multiple knowledgeable, high-rank members for a stance that goes against policy, I'd think it's SOMEWHAT acceptable to break precedent. I believe we've made exceptions in some cases. And if that's the case, then the argument that "having too many keys on one page looks bad, so we shouldn't gather that info" seems like it would go against the purpose of VsBattles Wiki, as an indexing site & a VsBattles debating site:
If we chose to break precedent this time, by accepting the idea of having anime and manga stats, but didn't do so, I'd think it would be choosing not to index info because it "looks messy", as well as ignoring one of the more prominent aspects of the Yu-Gi-Oh! franchise.
Sorry about all the words.
I also agree very much with Dragonmasterxyz. Neatness is nice, but, IMHO, it doesn't seem right when the only reason some indexing, documentation, or other info-gathering stops for no other reason than "it's too messy".
When there's support by multiple knowledgeable, high-rank members for a stance that goes against policy, I'd think it's SOMEWHAT acceptable to break precedent. I believe we've made exceptions in some cases. And if that's the case, then the argument that "having too many keys on one page looks bad, so we shouldn't gather that info" seems like it would go against the purpose of VsBattles Wiki, as an indexing site & a VsBattles debating site:
If we chose to break precedent this time, by accepting the idea of having anime and manga stats, but didn't do so, I'd think it would be choosing not to index info because it "looks messy", as well as ignoring one of the more prominent aspects of the Yu-Gi-Oh! franchise.
Sorry about all the words.
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I am sorry, but there is absolutely no legitimate reason you have brought to make a Yugioh anime profile, literally everything you have argued can be applied to other series, such as Dragon Ball Z (You're going to see me bring this up a lot since its probably the biggest example).
I am more than willing to make a profile, if the rules allow it. But as it stands now, it would simply be hypocritical to allow anime Yugi but not allow, say anime Frieza, Gohan, etc, when the differences are much bigger in those respective cases.
We can not break precedent when there is no real reason to, and it would only look like hypocrisy. Espically right after someone here had a debate over the canonicity of a certain movie of a franchise and was as he put it, "on the fence" about accepting a non-canon profile with significantly more differences than its canon counterpart and calling a composite video game profile for said popular character absurd and against the rules.
I am more than willing to make a profile, if the rules allow it. But as it stands now, it would simply be hypocritical to allow anime Yugi but not allow, say anime Frieza, Gohan, etc, when the differences are much bigger in those respective cases.
We can not break precedent when there is no real reason to, and it would only look like hypocrisy. Espically right after someone here had a debate over the canonicity of a certain movie of a franchise and was as he put it, "on the fence" about accepting a non-canon profile with significantly more differences than its canon counterpart and calling a composite video game profile for said popular character absurd and against the rules.
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Indeed.
What else is need to be discussed about the manga?
What else is need to be discussed about the manga?
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I don't think much more needs to be discussed, after we finish, we can begin to discuss DSoD and R in much greater detail and what changes they can also provide.
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I 100% disagree, SD. It's fine to make an exception for the anime since the rankings are so different. The drama that is being made here is basically "Toei Dragon Ball isn't allowed so nothing else should".
The only reason people are saying no to anime Keys is:
1) Purism
2) Angry that DBZ isn't allowed anime profiles.
The only reason people are saying no to anime Keys is:
1) Purism
2) Angry that DBZ isn't allowed anime profiles.
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Well, every user can just see an anime version of a series like DB, Naruto, Bleach, Yu Yu Hasusho and every other manga series that got an Anime Adaptation and ask for keys since most feats have higher hield in the Anime, merging continuities with two profiles that have many keys like Ichigo or Goku, who gained in filler sagas or movies new attacks that the other conterpart does not possess [Like Dragon Fist] might clutter the pages and having separate profile might end the same as the Xenoverse/Manga Goku, who was similar to DBS Goku page but with higher ratings and a little new stuff, but the personality, plot, attacks and etc. are mostly the same.
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Matthew Schroeder said:
Boy who's talking about Dragon Ball not having things, all these people are using them as examples because the page is using them as examples. All we're doing is following the rules accordingly, and in this sense it's a lot easier to compare what Dragon Ball has failed to do because it's the biggest one to spot in the fine print. There isn't anything about purism either, becuase it's first made first priority for these things unless a canon is stated otherwise, again pointing to Dragon Ball because it has a big one we can point to.
Going back to Rule 4, yes the anime is more popular because it's the damn anime, I'd be shocked to hear an anime that is outspoken by the manga version that isn't Berserk. However, it still needs "containing their own feats, a different role and purpose, and a new desig". It has one of the three, but a lesson in English, and isn't or, so unless it meets all three priorities we ain't going anywhere
Why should we ever ignore the rules and regulations if the rules and regulations come first? You're doing some shady shit.Matthew Schroeder said:
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I am not doing naything shady. All rules have exceptions. The Pokémon and Digimon profiles are clear examples of how harmless rules are. No need to be orthodox to the point of being unwielding, there's 0 harm in including an Anime Key. Since it's the same plot mostly, but the feats are so drastically different.
Seriously. Dragon Ball is a completely different thing because it'd involve making new profiles, and both continuities went with separate sequels. So there's not much need.
Seriously. Dragon Ball is a completely different thing because it'd involve making new profiles, and both continuities went with separate sequels. So there's not much need.
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I literally made that page you keep referring, by the way, and I no longer fully agree with it. I could tweak it if adhering 100% to rules which are meant to be consultations and general guidelines and not scripture is such a big deal.
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I didn't want to get involved, but even now making a Yugioh Anime Profile would be within the rules. They are being treated as if they are the same thing remade, where in actuality they are relatively similar origins to a wildly different timeline. To ignore that each is part of its own completely separate cano in which events differ wildly is cherry picking information.
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Perhaps this needs more opinions?
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I agree with Matt, and I've already given plenty of reasons in the old thread.
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Indeed.
3-A DSOD is obvious for now.
3-A DSOD is obvious for now.
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"All rules have exceptions."
For a reason, that's the important part here.
"The Pokémon and Digimon profiles are clear examples of how harmless rules are."
Digimon ones are because they're all canon, not sure about Pokemon, though I believe I have already brought that up before.
Seriously. Dragon Ball is a completely different thing because it'd involve making new profiles, and both continuities went with separate sequels. So there's not much need.
So would having anime and manga profiles. Yugioh did go with separate sequels.
"The only reason people are saying no to anime Keys is:
1) Purism
2) Angry that DBZ isn't allowed anime profiles."
Additionally, don't use a fallacy of appeal to motive and strawman. You're an admin please.
For a reason, that's the important part here.
"The Pokémon and Digimon profiles are clear examples of how harmless rules are."
Digimon ones are because they're all canon, not sure about Pokemon, though I believe I have already brought that up before.
Seriously. Dragon Ball is a completely different thing because it'd involve making new profiles, and both continuities went with separate sequels. So there's not much need.
So would having anime and manga profiles. Yugioh did go with separate sequels.
"The only reason people are saying no to anime Keys is:
1) Purism
2) Angry that DBZ isn't allowed anime profiles."
Additionally, don't use a fallacy of appeal to motive and strawman. You're an admin please.
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Again only one person agrees with that and that's yourself.Marco Shark said:
Also @Matt, thought I had already replied but:
Just because you made those rules and that you now disagree with them doesn't mean that they're now null. They're still in effect and we still have to abide by those rules even if you yourself, the creator, disagrees with them. Unless you take action now, there's literally nothing we can do for those guidelines but to follow them as they are written.
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