About Nappa vs. Goku & Possible Revision

Our page for Goku currently states that Goku is Small-Planet level because he "easily" defeated Nappa.

However, this is not even close to being the case. The page links to a portion of the fight that is out of context. After Nappa took that massive beating from Goku, Vegeta warned him to calm down, and subsequently said that Goku wasn't an opponent that Nappa couldn't fare well against if he did that:

Chapter: 225 (DBZ 31), P14.2.

Context: after Goku has been outclassing Nappa

Vegeta: "Nappa!!!! Get a hold of yourself, fool!!!! He's not an opponent you can't take if you keep your head!!! Calm down!!!!"

Then, after Nappa calms down, Goku admits that Nappa has gotten much more serious:

Chapter: 226 (DBZ 32), P5.2

Context: after fighting with 'calm' Nappa

Goku: "Heh! You've really gotten serious, haven'cha?!"

Right after that, Goku states that Nappa is a very formidable opponent and that their fight would take all day:

Chapter: 226 (DBZ 32), P7.4/P8.1-4

Context: after Goku deflects Nappa's mouth blast

Vegeta: "Unbelievable!! To instantly deflect it at that short of a distance!"

Goku: "Phew. If I had taken that one head on, I'd have been in trouble!!"

Nappa: It…It can't be!!! That was my…my best technique!!! He…He just bounced it off!!"

Goku: "He really is a tough bastard! Even though he should have been hurt a little bit by my Kamehameha!! At this rate this looks like it will take forever..."

And Nappa himself states that his blind anger prevented him from letting his full power show through:

Chapter: 226, (DBZ 32), P1.1

Nappa: "I really had lost my head. Now it's time for me to show you what I'm really capable of."

Nappa fires his blast, and Goku releases a Kamehameha, and both attacks cancel each other out, proving that they are comparable. Not to mention the fact that Goku's Kamehameha did literally no damage to Nappa, as shown above.

Goku also states that Nappa's attack would have got him in trouble if it had landed:

Chapter: 226 (DBZ 32), P7.4/P8.1-4

Context: after Goku deflects Nappa's mouth blast

Vegeta: "Unbelievable!! To instantly deflect it at that short of a distance!"

Goku: "Phew. If I had taken that one head on, I'd have been in trouble!!"

Alongside the fact that Nappa could perceive and react to Goku's attacks after calming down, something he couldn't do when angered, the feats and the context all suggest that Nappa at full-power is a formidable foe who almost rivals Goku in strength.

Now, for the possible revision:

I noticed that Nappa is listed as Small-Planet level for clowning the entire Z-Senshi. Actually, we can probably revise this and list him as "At least Small Planet, possibly Planet level."

The reason for this is the fact that many of our profiles show this kind of scaling. Riordanverse Typhon, for example, is listed as Small Planet-level for clowning many "At least Moon level" characters with no effort, and Setne is Large-Island level for defeating a Island-level and four possible Island-level characters at once.

Since Nappa had no trouble tanking attacks from characters who are easily FAR above the baseline Low 5-B spectrum, easily clowned and blitzed them, and overall had absolutely no trouble taking them on, we should list him as "At least Small Planet level', possibly Planet level. This would upgrade Goku and give Vegeta another reason to be an Earth-buster, too.

Not to mention the fact that Krillin's Scattering Blast, which had enough power to rip four high-level Low 5-Bs apart at once with no effort, did absolutely nothing to Nappa when it touched him.

Tien's Shin Kikohou, even stronger than Krillin's Scattering Blast, also failed to do anything to Nappa when it made contact him.

Overall, i think a "possible 5-B" rating for Nappa is not farfetched at all.

Counter-Arguments:

Argument 1# - Nappa shat himself at the thought of Goku being 5,000.

Conter-Argument: Nappa wasn't expecting Goku to have such a dramatic increase in power. Vegeta himself isn't too excited when he reads the level.

Argument 2#: Piccolo survived an off-guard attack from Nappa.

Counter-Argument: Nappa held back.

Nappa: You stupid freak!! Now you've made me mad!! I took it easy on you because we want you to tell us where those dragon balls are!! But now!!!

Argument 3#: Piccolo was capable of immobilizing and knocking Nappa down with an attack.

1. Counter-Argument: Nappa was caught off-guard, as stated by Piccolo himself and expressed by the artwork, which shows a surprised Nappa with a "!!" next to his face.

Argument 4#: Nappa was intimidated by Tien's Kikoho and Gohan's Masenko.

Counter-Argument: None of which damaged him when they landed. Also, yelling "2,800, eh?" isn't intimidation.

Argument 5#: Nappa was unable to intimidate Goku, suggesting that he is closer to the Z Warriors.

Counter-Argument: This is, of course, wrong.

Goku: "Phew. If I had taken that one head on, I'd have been in trouble!!"

Argument 6#: The Z-Warriors gave Nappa battle damage.

Counter-Argument: Vegeta also gave Recoome battle damage. Still beaten to a pulp.

Argument 7#: Krillin was capable of briefly surprising and besting Nappa at close-range.

Counter-Argument: Then he got one-shotted by an attack that didn't even touch him.

That's about it.

You can ask the people listed under Dragon Ball in the Knowledgeable Members List to comment here if you wish.

I'm fine with revising Nappa to At least Low 5-B, possibly 5-B. And Goku as well.

Frim what I remember Nappa only got stomped by kaioken Goku so I think this makes sense

I always thought Nappa should be planet level via power level scaling. I mean he stomped characters with feats calced just under planet level.

Who's the 5-B baseline from DB anyway? Is Bardock or Vegeta? In both cases base Goku is Low 5-B, depending of the choice, Goku KK could be Low 5-B+ or 5-B

Vegeta is 5-B. Goku with Kaioken x2 is already 5-B for being able to actually harm Vegeta. So Base Goku and Nappa are at the limit of Low 5-B, almost 5-B.

Matthew Schroeder said:

Vegeta is 5-B. Goku with Kaioken x2 is already 5-B for being able to actually harm Vegeta. So Base Goku and Nappa are at the limit of Low 5-B, almost 5-B.

Click to expand...

Yet both are >> Characters at the limit of Low 5-B.

If Vegeta is the baseline 5-B then Goku kk should be Low 5-B+, he is still weaker. Story change if Bardock is the baseline 5-B, I recall a guide saying that with a PL of 10k you have enough power to destroy a planet, but maybe it was a English guide.

An attack capable of tearing four creatures at the limit of Low 5-B apart at once did absolutely nothing to Nappa, so him being at least Low 5-B, likely 5-B is not farfetched at all.

Tien's Shin Kikohou surpassed Krillin's Scattering Blast and it did absolutely nothing to Nappa too.

I don't even have to talk about Gohan's Masenko, which was by far the strongest attack the Z-Warriors released against Nappa, and all it did was make Nappa's hand sting a little bit.

The difference is negligible. Kaioken x2 Goku did noticeable, real harm to Vegeta. So he is Planet level.

Antoniofer said:

If Vegeta is the baseline 5-B then Goku kk should be Low 5-B+, he is still weaker. Story change if Bardock is the baseline 5-B, I recall a guide saying that with a PL of 10k you have enough power to destroy a planet, but maybe it was a English guide.

Click to expand...

Do you have a link to this?

Kepekley23 said:

An attack capable of tearing four creatures at the limit of Low 5-B apart at once did absolutely nothing to Nappa, so him being at least Low 5-B, likely 5-B is not farfetched at all.

Tien's Shin Kikohou surpassed Krillin's Scattering Blast and it did absolutely nothing to Nappa too.

I don't even have to talk about Gohan's Masenko, which was by far the strongest attack the Z-Warriors released against Nappa, and all it did was make Nappa's hand sting a little bit.

Click to expand...

Oh yeah, Krillen one-shotted like...was it 3-4? High end low 5-Bs, and attacks even stronger did almost nothing to Nappa.

@Antonio

https://i.imgur.com/TBZ3ONG.jpg

Kepekley23 said:

@Antonio
https://i.imgur.com/TBZ3ONG.jpg

Click to expand...

There is it. But not sure if it reliable information, it could be similar to that info that said that Goku traveled half Namek to meet frieza and the others, that isn't true.

I think that a power level of 10,000 = Planet-busting makes sense. Given Bardock and King Vegeta were 10,000. And Planet-busting wasn't considered this extraordinary thing that only Vegeta could do.

Also, the difference between Goku with KK and Vegeta isn't negligible, although not by much, Goku is clearly outmatched.

Well I don't really see anything contradicting it

Welp, if nothing is wrong the databook (or whatever), anyone with PL superior to 10k would be 5-B, including Goku with KK. Actually, nothing has changed...

I know power levels aren't linear, but should they be treated as linear for only the times he uses kaioken, since we do treat kaioken as linear?

We already treat Kaioken as linear.

The only times where power level progression matches linear power increase is with Kaioken (Goku going from 8,000 to 16,000 with Kaioken x2, for instance). In every other instance, the difference really isn't linear.

Yeah.

King Piccolo = 260 = City-buster.

Piccolo = 329 = Small-Planet buster.

Any time that kk is used PL is linear, and I think when used Great Ape form too. Only times is isn't is used humans as reference (ex. the farmer). Like, they work exponentially around 1-500 PL, and then is linear for a good time.

I think "At least Low 5-B possibly 5-B" makes sense.


Also according to the databook then Bardock and King Vegeta would have to be 5-B. Makes sense since they are superior to Nappa who according to this revision would have a "Possibly 5-B" added to him.

No mean we can use it like this

10000 = planet level

Kaioken times 2 = 16000 (1.6 times higher then baseline)

Only when goku uses kaioken should powers levels become linear?

10,000 = Planet level

530,000 = Dwarf Star level

^ Just another example.

Any PL multiplier between Raditz and Goku KK (pre-zenkai) should work in a linear way, betwwen 1M and 150M should work too cuz Frieza.

Dont think that Nappa should be 5-B, he has a PL of 8k, and that is below baseline 5-B

This would also make Saiyan Saga Vegeta fairly high on the 5-B tier since his power level is 18,000 on that arc.

I know that Matt, but I'm talking about only when goku use kaioken

That's why i said that Nappa should be at least low 5-B, possibly 5-B.

Kepekley23 said:

That's why i said that Nappa should be at least low 5-B, possibly 5-B.

Click to expand...

Being few numbers below the baseline doesn't merit a Possibly to the that level, otherwise any character with a calculated "+" in a calc would have a possibly to the higher tier. Also, I commited a mistake, 8k PL is the Goke, Nappa has 4k, that is half the power of Goku (if we are counting PL linear in that instance).

Well if 5-B isn't accepted how about "At least Low 5-B+"?

He is pretty damn close to baseline if his power is around base Goku level.

Antoniofer said:

Any PL multiplier between Raditz and Goku KK (pre-zenkai) should work in a linear way, betwwen 1M and 150M should work too cuz Frieza.
Dont think that Nappa should be 5-B, he has a PL of 8k, and that is below baseline 5-B

Click to expand...

No. Power levels are 100% unusable safe for Kaioken.

"Power levels are bullshit" basically

I debunked Nappa being half of Goku's power in the OP. He rivals base Goku in strength.

10,000 being the baseline is a possibility, not a fact. We take databook statements as supporting evidence.

Typhon is Low 5-B for effortlessly trashing several 5-Cs, and Setne is High 6-C for effortlessly beating 4 6-Cs. I could list more, but in the context of this wiki, Nappa being "at least Low 5-B, possibly 5-B" is justified.

Except that base Goku isn't 5-B, he is considerable below the baseline, being 10k or 18k, and Nappa is still weaker than Goku, so he couldn't be 5-B. We don't rate characters tier x just for being close to x, that's why "+" exist.

Gotta agree , noticed that awhile ago but I don't got the means to actually make dbz threads .

The baseline being 10k or 18k is made up. Vegeta stated that he would turn the Earth to ashes. That doesn't mean he is the baseline for planet-busting.

Also, sorry, but the legitimacy of the El manga legendario guidebook is disputed, due to the fact that the last official DBZ guidebook was released in 2004, and this one is from 2008.

So it could likely originate from fans.

Also:

Typhon is Low 5-B for effortlessly trashing several 5-Cs, and Setne is High 6-C for effortlessly beating four 6-Cs. In the context of this wiki, Nappa being "at least Low 5-B, possibly 5-B" is justified.

Antoniofer, actually we do .

Look at all might or the gems .