Warcraft Revision part 2

Continuation of https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1010847

Alright making this thread as suggested by Ant. Due to no staff members having a lot of knowledge on Wow lore the old thread turned into a real mess with us going around in circles arguing who is right or wrong and making it extremely hard to follow. So I'm making part 2 with the 2 suggested rating so it will be easier for the staff to evaluate.

Suggestion number 1 by Myriadofmemes

Murmur and the Elemental Lords:


First and foremost I do not believe that there is any credibility to Murmur being a planet buster. This conflicts with all established lore regarding elemental beings. To properly evaluate Murmur however I believe that some revisions have to be made to the other Elemental Lords:


Therazane: 6-C (up from At least 7-B) - Currently rated as 7-B for raising entire mountain ranges. However even the smallest of mountain ranges are bigger than 99.995% of all islands. Furthermore Therazane was capable of raising multiple of these.


Note: the amount of time that it takes for Therazane to create such a mountain range is unknown.


Neptulon: 6-C - His tidal waves were capable of completely submerging the mountain ranges raised by Therazane. While there's very little research on such mega tsunami-like waves, the few kilometers high waves that have been researched have all been a consequence of meteorites.


Ragnaros: 6-C likely High 6-C (up from 7-B possibly 7-A) - From what I understand we have Ragnaros scaled to volcanic eruptions. However unlike volcanic eruptions it was stated that the volcanoes he raised were bursting through the planet's crust. Unlike volcanic eruptions where magma follows the path of least resistance through cracks in the curst, Ragnaros' lava flows tear it apart as the flows travel towards the surface. Even supervolcanos are not formed this way.


Al'Akir: 7-A ( up from 7-B) - His current scaling puts him on the upper end of 7-B but it appears that it is scaling him to very average cyclones. Whereas the cyclones he made were referred to as monstrous.


Murmur: 7-A - Comparable to the "Lord class" elementals


Note: Cannonically an Elemental destroying a planet seems impossible as well as counterproductive. Elementals are bound to the planets they are created o . As elementals are not known to be capable of travelling to other planets on their own, the destruction of an Elemental's home world would spell their death.


Note 2: Elementals have a very static range of power due to the fact that their source of nourishment and power, spirit, causes them to become pacified and unable to take on a corporeal form when exposed to large amounts.


Demon Lords:


Archimonde & Kil'Jaeden: 6-A l up to 5-B with extreme magic rituals. - Vastly superior to the majority of Warcraft characters, being at the top of the Burning Legion means that they are stronger than the character of the same species that wiped the surface of a planet clean of life. Both of them have statements of destroying worlds. However showings of surface wiping attacks have consistently been shown to require time and Preparation to complete.


Others:


Deathwing: High 6-B - His current rating seems to be on point. The Cataclysm devastated parts of the two biggest continents.


Illidan Stormrage: 6-C - Added Gul'Dans' power to his already formidable one.


The Lich King / Arthas: High 6-C potentially Low 6-B - Defeated Illidan atop The Frozen Throne. Grew vastly in power after merging with Ner'Zhul and hibernating for 5 years.


Note: The Lich King is an extremely powerful telepath who's original purpose was to serve as a hivemind for the millions of undead soldiers he'd eventually command. To that end the vast majority of his powers lie in his sizeable army.


Note: When Kil'Jaeden referred to the Lich King being out of control he was referencing the Lich King's disobedience and not anything else. The Lich King's powers weren't growing, they were weakening due to the expelling of the runeblade Frostmourne from his side.


Suggestion number 2 by Udlmaster

Therazane, the Earth Mother: At least High 6-A, Possibly 5-C, Her presence along with the other Elemental Lords is felt across the Planet. Therazane casually moved mountains and created fissures in Primordial Azeroth and was deemed a Threat to Deathwing who severely damaged Azeroth by just leaving Deepholm ,comparable to the Other Elemental Lords. Neptulion, the Tide Hunter: At least High 6-A, Possibly 5-C, Presence is all over Azeroth, along with the Other Elemental Lords, Queen Azshara saw Neptulion as a threat to the Naga and herself, Queen Azshara post-transformation with her previous form being able to hold a barrier that could hold the Multi-Continental Sundering at her Palace which was less than a few metres from the Well, comparable to the Other Elemental Lords. Ragnaros, the Firelord: At least High 6-A, Possibly 5-C, Presence is found all around Azeroth along with the Other Elemental Lords, His mere summoning damaged the Entire region of the Burning Steps and damaging the Surrounding Regions such as Searing Gorge and the Bad Lands. Was in a constant war with Nefarian, the Son of Deathwing and one of the Major Flight leaders for the Black Dragonflight , comparable to the Other Elemental Lords.
Al'Akir, the Windlord: At least High 6-A, Possibly 5-C, Presence is found all across Azeroth along with the Other Elemental Lords , fought Ra, Thorim and Hodir, should be comparable to other Titan Keepers, Rajh along with Setesh of whom are stated to have the power to wipe the Entirety of Life on Azeroth effortlessly. Comparable to Other Elemental Lords.

Murmur: 5-B, Possibly Higher. Stated to turn Planets into dust by Whispering, while being summoned, a Bored yawn obliterated the summoning party leaving him between summonings.

Note: Murmur is NOT an Elemental Lord, while he IS an Elemental, he is no Lord and is classified as a "Primordial Essence of Sound. ".

Archimonde, the Defiler: At least 5-B, Possibly Higher. Stated to be comparable to Kil'Jaeden but weaker, where Kil'Jaeden has been Stated to destroy the Planets that the Draenei had fled too , Archimonde's death led to the destruction of a World Tree and a massive sacrifice of the Elves Immortality to defeat him.

Kil'Jaeden, the Deceiver: At least 5-B, Possibly Higher. Stated to have Destroyed the Planets the Draenei had fled to, as well he had thought he was able to beat or challenge Sargeras and rule the Burning Legion. Stated there was a Power Struggle between Sargeras and Kil'Jaeden, however, during Legion, Kil'Jaeden stated he thought Sargeras could never be defeated.

Deathwing, the Destroyer of Worlds: At least High 6-A, Possibly higher. Had Al'Akir and Rangnaros as Lackies working under him. Damaged the Dimensions between the Planes of the Elemental Lords, bring Skywall to Azeroth as well as opening the way for Deepholme, Firelands and Abyssal Maul. Give the Title of: "Destroyer of Worlds" by Blizzard.

Illidan Stormrage, the Betrayer: Possibly 6-B with the Eye of Sargeras. His spell work was going to destroy all of Northrend and severely hurt the Elements and all of Nature on Azeroth was enough of a Threat that Nature called for his brother to Stop the spell before it was too late.

The Lich King, Arthas Menethil: At least 6-B, possibly Higher. Casually one Shot all the Heroes of Azeroth using "Fury of Frostmourne" after being severely weakened and having his heart destroyed, which was stated to have seriously hurt him on top of the New Plague being released onto him. In Order to destroy Pre-whole Lich King, the Destruction of all of Northrend was needed.

My summary is a refined version of Udlmaster's and adds details and corrections to the in general scaling (we do share a opinion on this):

Elemental Lords being High 6-A does make sense since they are above to enemies that could surface wipe and have been mentioned (disconsidering their possible but unlikely 5-B rating) and their individual set of feats being quite impressive, such as mentioned in Udlmaster's summary. They do NOT, however, have any feat to place them at 5-C, because almost anything would make them be either too weak to be 5-C or be 5-B instead (Which once again, is a nearly impossible chance).

Murmur should be 5-B (Or Unknown, possibly 5-B) due to his Codex of Blood being really weird in comparison to his feats and power, but still mentions his planet busting powers and other sources also mention this. He definitely SHOULDNT be above KJ and Archy.

Archimonde and Kil'jaeden are at least 5-B as nearly everyone has proven before not only in this thread, but in WoW and other threads in the past, such as through the strongest Eredar being able to destroy planets, Kil'jaeden being stated to destroy planets that the Eredar fled to and Archimonde being stated to be able to destroy Draenor with this spell ( http://www.wowhead.com/spell=182225/rain-of-chaos). Even a unnamed Eredar, easily far under Archimonde and Kil'jaeden, who are two of the three most powerful Eredar we have ever known along with Velen, could surface wipe (such as mentioned in their profile note).

Deathwing and LK Arthas should be at least 5-B due to a weakened Kil'jaeden (which was summoned with the Scepter of Sargeras by one of Azeroth's greatest mages, Kael'thas (so he shouldn't be that weakened)) being defeated by the heroes of WoW and Arthas oneshotting them all once he fought seriously. There is NO indication of it being hax, which leads to said attack falling under a physical attack (Not Dura Negation) and being an actual Attack Potency feat.

The Dragon Aspects are not hundreds of times weaker than Deathwing, they should be around 13x times weaker individually using a terrible scaling method (Three Dragon Aspects were required to face and defeat Neltharion, who then proceeded to get 10x as Deathwing, making even the combined power of all aspects worthless without him being weakened), so they could be At least High 6-A, likely 5-B or similar (Are not so weaker in comparison to Deathwing. Could possibly be Low 5-B by placing Deathwing at Baseline Planet level, which doesn't seem to be the case considering Deathwing is already superior to Arthas who is superior to a weakened Kil'Jaeden such as mentioned above)

Illidan seems fine scaling with the rest of the crew such as Thrall, Jaina, Malfurion and such and should be 6-B with the Eye of Sargeras. Illidan is incredibly weird, though, as he could possibly have feats that scale to 5-B (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZN01-QCFKAand https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td0pUwrBWjc could possibly make him 5-B, even though I really, REALLY doubt it).

EDIT:

What seems to have been agreed on is Archimonde and Kil'jaeden being At least 5-B, likely higher (Only denied by Myriad who didn't really argument against it other than just rejecting it for nearly no reason even after providing evidence for said tier)

Murmur being Unknown, at least 5-B (Once again only rejected by Myriad with little to no argumentation against the Codex of Blood and the many references to his ability to destroy planets)

Warcraft Heroes being 6-C (This applies to most Warcraft 3 heroes such as Thrall, Jaina, Malfurion, Illidan, DK Arthas and Paladin Arthas).

Should this be added or will there be further input?

I have highlighted the thread, so other staff members will hopefully try to evaluate this.

I apologize for having to post a second time, however I have to address some misconseptions raised by Udlmaster and Anderson which I had hoped to answer in the original post, however regretably I did not have the chance to do so:

I've tried to stick to the most cannonically accurate material which is the Chronicles Volumes 1 and 2. Therefore the vast majority of my quotes can be found in those two books.

In regards to Murmur:

I never referred to him as an Elemental Lord, this was a strawman raised by Uldmaster to change the subject into something different. You can view my original wording in my summary up above. His view that Murmur isn't an elemental is incorrect the Chronicles strictly state that he is an elemental from a different planet. Furthermore the Chronicles support the notion that Spirit affects all elementals on all planets including those on Azeroth. Meanwhile no one has any proof that would state otherwise.

Also, while not directly connected to Murmur's power, the Chronicles retconned the date of the creature's summoning from two years prior to the beginning of the Burning Crusade expansion, to about 50 years before the aforementioned expansion. This futher increases the discrepancy between old lore and the lore established by the Chronicles. The sole reason for the publishing of these book is to tie together the very loose and contradicting lore of Warcraft. As there is very little lore related to Murmur that is still considered cannon, his planet busting statement should be considered an outlier.

In regards to the Lich King:

The Lich King used his runeblade Frostmourne , a soul stealing and sealing blade, to initiate his finishing move and tear the souls of players in the final fight against him. Trying to ressurect after the attack had been used gives players the message the their soul belongs to The Lich King. Therefore his one shotting feat should be considered soul manipulation as Frostmourne sole special ability is to seal souls inside it.

In regards to the Demon Lords:

Anderson said that I had no argument when I said that Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden could only bust planets using powerful rituals that require time and preparation to complete, which is in fact my argument as stated above in my summary. To try and argue against this he used game mechanics which I profoundly disagree with being used at all in a discussion like this. Furthermore he didn't address the point I made about the Eredar Warlock who wiped the surface of a planet clean using a ritual similar to the one shown in the cinematic in my summary. Again, instead opting to use the tooltip of a spell which has absolutely zero lore value.

In regards to Deathwing:

The Shattering was not caused in full from Deathwing's exit from Deepholm. A large part of it occured afterwards, overtime, as Deathwing traveled across the globe. He has no feat that can put him at 6-A or higher.

I actually can agree with the Murmur points to some point. The Codex seemed to be mostly hyperbole, so Murmur remaining at Unknown or 6-A would be better (if he even deserves to have a page, because while legendary powerful figures such as Medivh, Khadgar, Anduin Lothar, Broxigar and many others have no pages, Murmur, who is a minor character and seems to be incredibly annoying to place at a accurate tier, has one). However, if the Chronicles have no retcon in said information, and information is given and is not retconned, even if old, it still stands. No imaginary retcon can occur while scaling. However, I'm fine with Murmur being Unknown.

Regarding Frostmourne, like I actually said before, there is no indication of him actually using Hax to oneshot. We could not ressurect after the attack because Frostmourne's main ability throughout Warcraft history was to seal one's soul once the blade takes a life. Hence Terenas' soul still remaining on Frostmourne and many souls leaving it once it shatters, and we only reviving once Frostmourne is broken. While Arthas was shown to have attacks to clearly manipulate one's soul to damage it, he has never shown to be able to oneshot anyone with said ability. Everything you mentioned is headcanon and has no base in books or in the very game where said feat occurs.

Yes, Deathwing has no "feats" of being 6-A or higher. He can however be scaled there through comparing to other characters, which goes back to what you said. Deathwing's exist from Deepholm wasn't the full extent of his power as even the slightest movements of Deathwing before actually getting out of Deepholm caused damages to Azeroth as shown in the cinematic and he apparently did so casually.

Even though there is evidence going against it in information given to us by the game, which is the prime source of information of the verse (even if it is constantly retconned by books and others). Also, you seem to mix what is a game mechanic and what is information given to us by the game, which actually has lore and information that comes from it. A game mechanic is something such as a potion exploit not being actually part of lore and therefore not reliable. Game lore is the information and story the game tells us which should by all means be used. Yeah, the Eredar Warlock wiped the surface of a planet clean using a similar ritual. In comparison to Archimonde and Kil'jaeden, two of the three strongest Eredar along with Velen, that Eredar Warlock means nothing. And that is ignoring the many statements of the strongest Eredar being able to destroy planets and the statements that Kil'jaeden destroyed many planets in an attempt to kill the fleeing Eredar, who fled from planet to planet, leading to Kil'jaeden destroying them.

I think that this is a pretty good spot to stop arguing for now at least until we get some further input from staff and other people.. If anyone has any questions regarding anything I'll answer as best as I can.

I would appreciate some help with evaluating this.

Maybe we should attempt to reach supporting members of the Verse. Maybe they have something substantial to add to the discussion.

On the topic of Deathwing, should it be noted that during the raid battle against him, he has a spell, also called Cataclysm, that is implied to be just as strong or even stronger than the original feat? While it is interruptable and not scripted like Arthas', it is an insta-kill move, and is unique in that it causes everyone's screen to go black, implying that there's nothing there to look at. While his execution of the move isn't canon like Fury of Frostmourne, the fact that he CAN do it likely is.

To quote the spell: "Deathwing attempts to finish the job he started by bringing forth a second Cataclysm"

Source of the comment above: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=106523/cataclysm

It is implied that Deathwing actually busted and "finished the job" after the spell is done, just as Rakanadyo mentioned. In this video, some players fail the raid and that happens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Czavf7gJz8o (Jump to 11:00, this video is slightly painful to watch). So, basically, Deathwing has his own Fury of Frostmourne.

One. I didn't Strawman you, if you even read your own writing:

"Murmur: 7-A - Comparable to the "Lord class" elementals

Note: Cannonically an Elemental destroying a planet seems impossible as well as counterproductive. Elementals are bound to the planets they are created o . As elementals are not known to be capable of travelling to other planets on their own, the destruction of an Elemental's home world would spell their death.

Note 2: Elementals have a very static range of power due to the fact that their source of nourishment and power, spirit, causes them to become pacified and unable to take on a corporeal form when exposed to large amounts.

"

You're words. Additionally, during the raid: "Hour of Twilight" it was stated that if Deathwing used the Cataclysm once more, the Planet would be destroyed.

For the first time in my Warcraft Revisions... Bump!

lul sargeras 3-A? jsut wtf

5-A at best.

We didnt mention Sargeras being 3-A, but since Argus has a possibly Low 2-C feat, he could be considered above 3-A. Also, 5-A at best is a severe downplay considering Sargeras' feats, however a Chronicles reader would probably be able to explain it to you in a better way. You can check this thread in relation to Sargeras' power: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/438750

Homu homu homu said:

lul sargeras 3-A? jsut wtf
5-A at best.

Click to expand...

5-A Best? I'm sorry, but Sargeras' battle with the Pantheon had 3-B/High 3-B Feats alone.

And Argus has his End of all Things ability...

How is that 5-A Worthy?

I would appreciate if other staff members could help out by evaluating the first two posts.

Alright, I'm a bit busy and will say this...

Note: I only read the two suggestions in the OP's post.

I think the fist suggestion sounds good, the planet level statements in the second suggestion sound fine but I didn't see any links to on screen planet busting, the one that says the sound guy can turn planets to dust with a wisper is another statement but if these beings in this Verse don't have Planet Level feats or compare to others in the verse who are actually Planet Busters with shown feats I wouldn't rate them as such.

Note: I didn't say WoW doesn't have planet busters or beyond, I'm saying the people listed only seem to have Statements.

Now I have nothing against using statements especially if nothing controdicts them like these guys struggle to lesser things but if everything they've done is causal I don't have a problem with the second suggestion.

I also don't know what's been agreed on so if someone could fill me in on that then that would be great.

Nothing in particular has been agreed upon. But I believe we may come to a conclusion about Deathwing with a High 6-A rating soon the way things are going. There are enough planet busting statements in the Verse, however the method and time that it takes for a character to accomplish those is unknown so any true scaling from that, for the most part, is very difficult. My second post just a little further down tries to elaborate on some points that I didn't have the opportunity to address in the OP.

Udl, the paragraph that you quoted clearly is making a difference between Murmur and the Elemetntal Lords. Take a note of how it's worded. " Comparable to "Lord class" elementals"

Apparently, the time taken for characters to accomplish that is the time to cast a spell. As I`ve said before, characters have shown to be able to bust planets without prep in-verse and those are shown visually. That is nowhere near being agreed on, by the way.

Check the latest posts on this very thread for more input on what I said on this post.

Murmur is not elemental he shouldn't be compared to them. The elements in wow are Fire Earth Wind Water and Spirit. And the one that are a cross between the main elementals like lava elementals being Earth and Fire. There are no Sound elementals like Murmur is supposed to be. The only thing that suggest that he is elemental is the ingame tag. Which I think can be disregarded because in wow creatures like Sha also have elemental tag even though we know that they clearly aren't. Also, i feel like I should add planet busting has only been shown by Sargeras and the titans. The rest are "world destroying" statements which IMO doesn't always equate to planet busting. Anyways I agree with Myriadofmemes suggestion except on Murmur and Deathwing.

Keep in mind, you are the one who quoted this first:

https://imgur.com/a/JgVle

My bad than I didn't notice that in chronicles he is referred as elemental.

Yes, he is an Elemental, but a Primal Elemental of Sound, or the Primal Essence of Sound, but I doubt this entire thread is about "Is Murmur an Elemental?" because we know the answer to that, what we want is the revisions.

@LordGriffin1000

Thank you for the evaluation.

Bump

I can highlight the thread again.

What about Tyrande? Should she scale to Malfurion too?

P.Gyuri said:

What about Tyrande? Should she scale to Malfurion too?

Click to expand...

I'd say so. She was strong enough that her presence at the battle against Ysera was considered pivotal, so I dont' feel it's a stretch that she's on Malfurion's level.

Tyrande barely has any combat feats, similar to Malfurion, but Tyrande should scale to Malfurion, Jaina and Thrall.

Personally, i think that Myriadofmemes's scaling make more contextually sense by what the series had show.

The planet busting statements are too vague to be a solid proof of those characters to be Planet level.

However, the problem is, is that the statements are all we have, it's an MMO, not a Comic series or a Manga Series, there can't be any planet busting shown because we've gone to 2 planets, one from the past, if they blew up the planet, it'd be a sad ending to WoW, so there's no point in saying it's vague because we CAN'T have Planet Busting shown.

I would still appreciate further staff input.

Udlmaster said:

Yes, he is an Elemental, but a Primal Elemental of Sound, or the Primal Essence of Sound, but I doubt this entire thread is about "Is Murmur an Elemental?" because we know the answer to that, what we want is the revisions.

Click to expand...

The point is that as an elemental he should be held to the same standard as all other elementals are being held since the retconns began and that his planet busting statement should be viewed as an outlier. If the Chronicles or some other source of new lore ever touch on parts of the story from WoW, then he might be established firmly as a planet buster. For now however, him destroying his planet contradicts everything stated in the chronicles.

so there's no point in saying it's vague because we CAN'T have Planet Busting shown.
Blizzard had no problem establishing the pantheon as casual planet busters and retconning them into colossal multi-planet sized monsters. With this i'm not trying to discredit Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden or anything.

I will ask Azathoth to help me evaluate this.

1.) How is the only statement about him an outlier? If he's had feats where him being midway through summoning, yawning which obliterated the summoning party, I'm pretty sure that's around Planet level when he's fully summoned.

2.) No, it doesn't contradict anything in the Chronicles, as it only balanced Wind, Fire, Water and Earth, clearly Murmur isn't a "Normal" elemental, as it's stated he's a "Primal Essence", saying he compares to the other elementals is like saying a Lightspawn is comparable to a Naaru.

3.) Planet Busting has never been shown, only either stated in books or said through conversations, the only "feat" we have is Sargeras busting the Planet with the corrupted Titan in it casually. And again, is in a Book. And the Chronicles is the rewrite and revision of the Lore, not all of it, it's fact, yes but not the whole fact.

4.) You're talking about a lot of semantics because we can't have planet busting because we don't survive in space. If the Planet died, assuming we'd survive it, we'd suffocate, boil and die. Notice how is the world busting attacks that happen instantly kill us? Deathwing's final Cataclysm and Archimonde's final Apocalypse? Because if the world dies, we die. And the heroes aren't supposed to lose because Blizzard has to appeal to all 6 mill + of us.

1. It is an outlier. There are also elementals in the game that are a combination of two elements like Ice elementals, Lava elementals etc. As far as we are concerned Murmur is a combination like them, probably of all elements considering that sound can propagate through all mediums. The combination of his elements is strictly my assumptio, but the fact that he IS an elemental is the undisputed truth.

1.5:

If he's had feats where him being midway through summoning, yawning which obliterated the summoning party, I'm pretty sure that's around Planet level when he's fully summoned.
MASSIVE wank. This stament simplified:

x + x + x + x + not fully summoned = Planet Buster

x1 = unknown number of summoners.

x2 = unknown power of each individual summoner.

x3 = unknown time and energy taken for the summoners to complete the summoning.

x4 = unknown method ( ritual of course, EVERY powerful spell has required a long and exsausting ritual to complete ) used to perform the summoning.

And you still deduce that he is Planet level from that? This is completely unquantifiable in my opinion, what is everyone else's opinion on this ritual?

2. If you wanna argue on elemental nature take it to Blizzard, become the head writer and write whatever you want. If you think that Blizzard is writing their lore with every single lousy 5-man dungeon boss in mind, well I'm sorry to tell you but you're wrong.

3 and 4. You're twisting the conversation into making it sound like Azeroth needs to be destroyed for a character to be established as a planet buster, that is not the case however. And world busting attacks? Are you saying that because we die from them the planet is automatically destroyed too? Are you saying that players are 5-B? On what are you basing that assumption? Can you elaborate on your scaling method?

I hope that Azathoth or some other staff member will help me to evaluate which version that is more reliable, because I am unable to properly do so, given my severe time constraints,

1.) You stating it is an outlier doesn't equal the truth, and because there's nothing else he's done to compare to makes it only stated feat...or are you going to say that if anyone does anything for the first time becomes an outlier because there's nothing else to it? (Jiren shaking the entirety of the Void is an outlier because he only did it once)

1.5.) It was evidently less than a Month as Illidan went in there before them and then got kicked out by the "Mysterious force" and spirits that were in there. X + Y + Z + A = Doesn't equal any wank

X= Stated Planet Buster

Y= Adventure Guide states him to "Destroy world on a whim "

Z = Any magic worth its salt in WoW uses Souls, and would you just happen to look where they all are. The very same place Illidan went to power his soul engine.

A= Methodology doesn't equate to power in the slightest.

2.) I don't care the nature of the Elementals in WoW or on Azeroth. I believe they're great writers but clearly, they had some thought before they wrote he busts planets, multiple times.

3.) If you want to talk about twisting conversations, I never said the Heroes are Planet level as they're not designed to lose anything we go into. I'm saying we'd die if the planet died. And if you took 3 seconds to read what I put before: "Assuming if we survived," showing it as a condition I've placed in not a fact.

1. Another strawman fallacy from you again. Not once have I so much as implied that my reason for viewing Murmur's planet busting as an outlier is based on it being the first and only recorded statement for elemental planet busting. Even if he had 200 statements made prior to the release of the Chronicles Volume 1 I still would have made the same argument. Stop putting words in my mouth.

1.5 If you'd bothered to remember what was previously stated in this very thread you'd know that Murmur's summoning has been retconned to have happened during the Dranei/Orc conflict 20 years before Illidan arrived on Draenor and you'd know that your analogy is completely false.

Then you tried to corrupt my "equation" into something that it isn't by replacing it with your own and not addressing it at all.

The adventure guide was also written before the Chronicles and is simply quoting obsolete lore.

Only fel magic is fully dependent on using souls, Druidism uses life energy and even if it completely exhausts a source of life it still doesn't opt in to use the soul as an energy source. Shamanism is borrowed power and Arcane,Void and Light magic don't use souls even in the slightest bit. Two of those powers have sources that predate souls and arcane stems from the titans. The reason why I'm addressing any of this is just for clarification. My original point from way back stands, it takes rituals for any grand spell to be performed.

2. Well I care because it's the current lore and it's what dictates what elementals are.

3. The point wasn't that heroes are Planet level. The point was that your argument doesn't add anything to this discussion, that it is unquantifiable, that it is PIS and it shouldn't be raised at all.

As I have previously stated, the Chronicles, while true, isn't all the truth. But you'd ignore that fact to support your own agenda. Which of course, is something you want to use to massively downplay characters.

PIS is rampant in WoW, like why didn't Archimonde just blow up the planet on Draenor when he was at full HP? Why didn't the Lich King just kill Tiron while he was frozen or instantly one hit the entire raid group during ICC, why didn't Deathwing just immediately cause a Second Cataclysm instantly destroying the planet? Because PIT and for Dramatic effect.

And for your 1 statement, you have just proven my point as you just said: " Even if he had 200 statements made prior to the release of the Chronicles Volume 1 I still would have made the same argument. Stop putting words in my mouth. "

Proving you're being biased as you're ignoring fact and statements put in front of you. Oh by your logic we should retcon the entirety of the Game because it's not stated in the Chronicles.

Also again, Void is a Primal force and is stated to destroy Planets. (But wait it doesn't say that in the chronicles so it must be wrong.) And note that in those instances, there was no Ritual used. Additionally Void and Light invented Souls for everything so...

Fel which destroys Planets absorbs both life force and Souls. Who'da thunk.

Still not quoting "Obsolete lore" because it's not been retconned and "It wasn't stated in the Chronicles" isn't any validation for retconning. Because like I said: The Chronicles isn't the be all, end all of the lore. Like how Argus was never said to be A Titan but now it is, or are you going to say it's an outlier because it's not apart of the Chronicles?

Also, the timing was never retconned, I had actually lied. It was never less than a Month, it was 2 years ago. You see, my little test was to see if you had actually done research on anything you were actually talking about.

Us caring equates to literally nothing when it comes down to it as it doesn't matter what we care, what matters is cold hard facts. And the fact is, your understanding of WoW crumbles down to "This is what's in the Chronicles" While I'm taking into account everything, mind you that ISN'T retconned by the Chronicles. Yours is a lot more narrow and only focusing on one thing in the Lore, mine is focusing on all of it, and as I've shown, I'm actually looking up what I am saying.

You're arguing something while not even talking about the argument raised: I said " I never said the Heroes are Planet level as they're not designed to lose anything we go into. I'm saying we'd die if the planet died. " nothing to do with the Heroes being Planet level or not but your previous response was: " You're twisting the conversation into making it sound like Azeroth needs to be destroyed for a character to be established as a planet buster, that is not the case however." evidently you brought it up, and if you want to see my previous one causing the response, it would be: " If the Planet died, assuming we'd survive it, we'd suffocate, boil and die." showing nothing to do with the Heroes being Planet level, my statement: "Assuming" is a condition to show "Even we assume they were Planet level and could survive Planet Level attacks, we'd still die."