Another ( Hopefully the final ) Yu-Gi-Oh! Revision Thread

Yugi & Atem. Accoring to Judai, even Little Yugi has the strongest spiritual energy, as well as the strongest spiritual deck he has ever fought.

We discussed in a previous thread that the characters have tier 5 feats... However, something concerned me usin such methods . Keep in mind a mod and a few users agreed with me concerning the below points, i am just reiterating them . All of these were discussed in the previous thread:

- The Gentle Darkness and Light of Destructions are viewed as , in both GX and DM , as the creators of the Yu-Gi-Oh! Totality [ Darkness stated that " Everything that has, was , or ever will be started with the Gentle Darkness and Light of Destruction " , which means that it would scale to other stories ] , which contains at least 9-10 timelines [ GX, 5D's, DM, Zexal, ARC-V are all viewed as different timelines. ARC-V has at least 4 and Duel Monsters has a realm transcending the multiverse [ The Afterlife ] , as well as ZEXAL [ Astral World is A Higher-Reality compared to the Multiverse , stated in the anime BTW ] . Transcending a 2-C Reality is... Weird. WIth 2-B, it'd be 2-A... With 2-C... I am unsure. Could be 2-A... But i'd like some opinions on this. ) .

- Here is how the scaling works ( Stick with this to figure out how ) : S5 Yugi = S5 Atem [ Spiritually ] >> Zork >>>>>> Egyptian Gods >>>> S3 Yugi = S3 Atem [ Spiritually ] >>>>S5 Judai >>>> (S4) Darkness >>>>>>>>>>> Gentle Darkness & Light of Destruction [ Created the totality of Yugioh, which would include all the timelines and the higher/transcendent realities within, which would be Astral World and The Afterlife . ] >>>>>>>> Rest of Yugioh.

- Judai had this power for years [ Gentle Darkness, one of the Creators of the Yugioh Totality ] , and fought and became far stronger than enemies wielding such vast power [ Sagoritus, wielding the Light of Destruction. Yubel, wielding the Light of Destruction ,Darkness, who had all the powers listed plus his own which allows him to control the World of Void in addition to his own power , etc. ] . Yet, he viewed Little Yugi as the strongest spiritual enemy he has ever come across, and feared a confrontation between him ." The strongest Spirtiual Duelist " ,is what he is offically called, with the "Strongest Spiritual Deck" . Spiritual energy is what is used to acheive most feats done in Yu-Gi-Oh! , and is what even the creators used to create the totality of YU-GI-OH!.

- When Yugi showed his spiritual energy , S4 Judai legitimately was afraid of him. Keep in mind Judai has sensed the spiritual power of the Gentle Darkness and has an ridiculous amount of power compared to then .S4 Judai was far stronger than the Darkness, but was basically implying Yugi was leagues ahead of him just by looking at his deck and just feeling his spiritual power. It may be crazy... But true.

- Just by glancing at him, Little Yugi was able to sense that Judai had a powerful entity inside of him, someone was "watching him" . He could sense Yubel. Don't know what that would imply though... Powers and Abilities wise. For reference though, only those with very powerful spirits, such as The Darkness and Judai , can sense Yubel . FYI, the only reason Yusei did once is because he had the full Crimson Dragon's power. Otherwise... I doubt he could.

- They also confirm in BBT that he ( Little Yugi and Atem, Post-Battle City ) is the strongest duelist to ever wield a deck. Duelist Strength , according to that episode, is about how powerful spiritually you are, as well as skill. Both play factors into it. So if Little Yugi's spiritual power is leagues above S4 Judai's... Yeah.

- Judai was also scared of the God Card's immense power, as well as Little Yugi's spiritual power. This was right after Battle City, and before S4 , S5, when Little Yugi's power rivaled Atem's, who was far stronger than almost everyone sans Horakthy . This would scale to anyone wielding the God Cards, and scales to those who have rivaled the Gods .

- Adult Yugi created a separate timeline comparable to GX's Timeline. It is weird. He also said Little Yugi was FAR stronger spiritually. So it's definitely consistent. Adult Yugi also has the ability to stop time . Yugi and Judai can move in stilled space-time. Whether or not this is b/c of : Adult Yugi or their powers, or both is up to others to decide.

- S5 Atem has the ability to summon and control with his spirit, the power of THREE Egyptian Gods, one which is viewed by Judai as being incredibly strong spiritually, and far above his own capabilities at that point. Atem >> Zork >>>>>> Egyptian Gods >>>> S3 Yugi >>>>S5 Judai >>>> (S4) Darkness >>>>>>>>>>> Light of Destruction >>>>>>>> Rest of Yugioh.

This would affect Judai and Yugi as of now .

Bump because these are pretty massive upgrades for the God Tiers & Top Tiers of Yu-Gi-Oh!

Bump. Basically it would result in tier 2 Yugi , Judai ( With or without Yubel ) , God Cards, and anyone in GX that sca!es to the Light of Destruction & The Gentle Darkness . It also gives them resistance to time stopping, sensing concealed powers, etc.

Bump. Proof Yugi & Atem had not only ability to resist such high level powers , but have higher level powers than what they possess now due to this scaling :

Yugi: Resisted the Orichalcos LV1 in Waking the Dragons Arc, using it as a catalyst to help Atem open his eyes . In comparison, the Egyptian God Cards were completely overwhelmed by such power . So, Yugi's spirit around this time completely eclipses the power of the Egyptian Gods. Yugi in both BBT and GX can see and sense Yubel's spirit, something only extremely powerful entities, such as a Fully Powered Crimson Dragon and the Light of Destruction can comprehend. Like Atem, in Pyramid of Light , Yugi has enough spiritual power to summon Blue Eyes Shining Dragon, who is on a completely different league than Blue Eyes Ultimate Dragon ( Who required Atem to use all 3 God Cards to defeat ) . Both were called the Gods of Dueling by Horakthy by the EoS, so Yugi should be comparable to S5 Atem in raw power .

Atem : Resisted the power of Orichalcos LV3 , and gave the Egyptian Gods enough raw power through will alone to resist and defeat the Leviathan/Divine Serpent Geh , who through scaling is far stronger than Orichalcos LV3 . Leviathan is probably the closest thing to Zorc in that arc . In the Pyramid of Light Movie, both he & Yugi have enough spiritual power to summon Blue Eyes Shining Dragon, who is on a completely different league than Blue Eyes Ultimate Dragon ( Who required Atem to use all 3 God Cards to defeat and had enough raw power to stalemate Zorc , who teared holes into time and space and connected the past and present with just their collisions . ) . In S5 Atem effortlessly deflected the power of an enraged Zorc , and had enough spiritual power to summon Horakthy, who by scaling is ridiculously superior to Blue Eyes Shining Dragon .

Bump.

Bump. Since the Anime & Manga are closely related... I am unsure if this scaling works as well in the season 0 ( Which is quite literally before Duelist Kingdom, well before he became aware of the Pharaoh...) ... So it MAY be connected .

Wait 24 hours before bumping.

Hmm, if this is accepted, what tier would be the ones that fought Yugi/Atem in the Shadow Duels. Like, Pegasus in Duelist Kingdom.

OMG. Thank you so very much for responding to this. I thank you for the reposnse. Sorry for the long wait... Had to do something first.

2-C at bare minimum, much higher when we take the transcendent realms into account, which could make it 2-A to High 2-A depending on interpretation. All wielders of Millennium Items scale, as each has a portion of the strength of Zorc . He's the weakest that scale directly. Here are the others :

- Yami Bakura [ Wielder of Millennium Item, Zorc's Soul, Thief Bakura has cmparable power to The God Cards ] , Yami Marik [ Wielder of Millennium Rod , Comparable to other Millennium Item wielders ] , Seto Kaiba [ Priest has enough power to rival the Gods, and even Zorc at times ] , Kiara [ IS the Blue Eyes Seto used as a Priest, which stalemated the God Cards in a fight ] , Joey [ Was stated to be able to surpass Atem's power, and is consistently shown as Yugi's Rival. Can resist the will of Ra , and was stated to be the only one capable of doing so at the time by Marik ] , and quite a few others afterward.

Wait what exactly is the feat(s) putting them in tier 2?

the gentle darkness and light of destruction being hinted to be the creators of everything in Yu-Gi-Oh!. ( Dakness staed beoe " Everything that has ,is , or ever will be started with them " ) .This would include the: higher reality hinted in ZEXAL, the. Afterlife ( Which required a higher "frequency to view" ) , The "5th" Dimension ( Which due to higher realities being in Yugioh, and scientific theories being in 5D's , ZEXAl, GX, and ARC-V, and The Afterlife being called dimensions, it is entirely possible it can be a literally 5th spatial-temporal dimension, especially given the nature of the card, descending from as higher plane... Especially considering another card has literally a character being from another plane " Shinto from a Higher Plane " ... That can't be a coincidence . ) , the separate timelines ( Yes, DM,GX,5D's,ZEXAL,& ARC-V are viewed as separate timelines in the series... ) , ARC-V's 4 timelines.

So the Gentle Darkness has it. This scales to Judai... Because he's not only had the Gentle Darkness inside him , but he has constantly fought people who had it. The scaling gets pretty clear cut from there... It's not as difficult as my previous attempts.

Poor Pegasus, he's the weakest. TuT

Also, in the movie with the Prana and Cube stuff, didn't it was stated that there are infinite universes? And Atem outright stomped the villain, who fused with the millenium ring.

Yeah... I know .

Him stomping would make sense... Considering Atem was at that point the strongest protagonist after S5 . Anyways... Where exactly did you remember seeing this ? If there are Infinite Number of Universes in Yu-Gi-Oh!... Hinted in the DsoD ... This would scale to 2-A to High 2-A no matter what way you look at it... Whether we refer to either just [ DM , GX, & 5D's ] And or [ Everything in Yugioh Totality ] . And yes 5D's Signers scales, but we need to look at Bonds Beyond Time specifically for that .

Is there anything concrete tho? The ones you listed are literally hints / possibilities.

Pegasus was a threat to Yugi and the others because of his ability to read the cards and his toon world. In the Manga after his defeat with Yugi he was killed by Bakura, in the Anime after a beam clash, he survived and took parts of some minor fights and in a Movie, he was easily defeated by Kaiba. In all versions Bakura takes the millennium eye.

I'm saying that because each Millennium Item has a portion of Zorc's spiritual power . It has nothing to do with how good of a duelist he is. And didn't i say he scales the "weakest"? ... It was for that exact reason.

However, let's take this one at a time. Slowly...Here in DsoD... There are apparently quite a few "realities " . Each of these realities are implied to be a whole universe from here to here . It's canonicity, while questionable , should be able to clarify how many realities are just in Duel Monsters alone [ Unless something is the problem with using this ] .

If we consider this, this would mean the Light of Destruction and Gentle Darkness [ Stated on wikia that the Gentle Darkness envelop the entire verse, and the Light of Destruction rivaled it in power ] created at least this many realities.

DsoD was confirmed to be canon to the manga I think. Which in turn, is canon to the anime (GX and above only tho).

GX has shown to be connected to Yugioh anime though , via Darkshroud mentioning Atem's Egyptian nature, mentioning Battle City, Judai recognizing Atem's spirit [ Which happened only in BBT, which is connected to the anime ] , etc.

The first two also happened in the manga, and the last one I have doubts actually happened, as BBT wasn´t a thing at the time (unless you mean he recognized him in BBT, in which case would mean BBT is non-canon.)

In Judai's True Graduation Duel, he referred to Atem as the Nameless Pharoah. The ONLY other time he knew that for sure was when he fought with Yugi in BBT , in which Paradox knew him as the Nameless Pharaoh . If this occurred in the manga, would it be safer to scale this from the manga or anime [ It isn't that difficult, just need to switch some reasoning around... Or say both are considered secondary sources ] ?

Manga, since the anime didn´t have the original writer of the story.

Also several arcs from the first series are missing in the Anime [They skipped the arcs] along other differencies and i'm sure the Toei Anime is in another continuity, which seems to adapt the first manga arc and etc.

This is on topic but sort of off topic at the same time. Mainly talking about Zexal, (I know DM-5D's probably doesn't scale to a Zexal) where does the Numeron Code and the Numeron Dragon fit into this scale? Also what about other high tier characters like Don Thousand who had Numeron powers and Nasch who absorbed Don Thousnad's power and was able to contend with a Zexal III Yuma? Where do the rest of the Barians scale? Or even more "normal" characters like Shark, Kaito, Tron and his family etc ?

Continuing with the manga... Plana was stated to be what caused the creation of those realities DsoD style. Young Yami Bakura oneshotted Shari... Who previously taught Aigami about Plans and is considered a " master of Plans " . Would this be quantifiable ?

I want to now focus on Dark Side of Dimensions & The Manga ... As the statements in power for it... Are more potent than my previous accusations . I believe scaling to the Manga is now legitimate. Everything i say here comes from an online manuscript of the entire movie. Anyways, In the DsoD Movie , they referred to Prana as a power that comes from a higher plane pretty constantly : " The world we Prana shall go is a world of a higher plane " , " the souls of a higher plane " , etc.

There is confirmation that the power Aigami had at the end was going to destroy everything :" Unless we all stay connected, then everything in this world will vanish! " . Considering how The Yu-Gi-Oh! Universe [ Which is confirmed a timeline by itself ] is a part of one of the worlds listed in the beginning , and they know of alternate dimensions, if everything is to be destroyed, so is all those dimensions, and it had higher-plane/higher-dimensional power, so whatever was calling it would scale to him . This is a lot of universes, so for something to be higher-dimensional in comparison... I am unsure what tier being a higher-dimension compared to a 2-C/2-B reality is. In a upgrade thread recently, i've seen it be as high as High 2-A.

Kaiba used the Cube that Aigami and Shadi used to enter the Afterlife, which was referred to as a higher-plane once in the movie.

Then we have the Shadow Realm that is constantly used and effortlessly manipulated by Atem and other Millennium Item wielders, which is also referred to as " another plane " in the wikia .

However, the important thing to note is that the Millennium Ring caused the damages : " Everything is that ring's doing.. " . This would definitely scale to even beginning Millennium Ring TBH, as it was constantly outdid by Atem. Keep in mind Bakura and Shadi's battle takes place during Atem's time, and before the main story. Therefore, it is scalable. Does anyone have any sort of questions before i continue ? This is some juicy stuff here. And yes, ZEXAL had a higher-dimension for it's reality too, so it's not like it's not shown in other series as well.

It will take some time for Aigami to destroy everything since it does not seemed that he was going to oneshot, also i'm not sure if the millenium wielders can draw all of the power of their item.

Seems like i actually have a chance now. Anyways... Shadi was referred to in the Dub as being the " Master " of Prana , which is where the higher-dimensional power is coming from. Also supported by how he is viewed as a God-Like entity several times in the Manga, and a " Master " by Aigami, who can use the Cube. The Cube itself can access the afterlife, a higher-plane. All Millennium Wielders can easily manipulate the Shadow Realm, which like mentioned before, is referred to as a "higher plane/another plane" in the manga . The Millennium Puzzle was stated to be stronger than all the items put together, which would include both the Ring and quite a few others, now including the Cube . This is shown by how easily he one-shots Aigami-Bakura, who had two items that have shown in the movie to be able to affect higher-realities at will .

What does SD think? Whatever he does is what I'm siding with, because of trust.

B/C of how long these responses are going to be.. I decided to organize it in " Manga" and "Anime" sections.

Yu-Gi-Oh! Manga Debate: May I ask how you feel first ? I think it's pretty legitimate.

We also need to remember that even base Yami Bakura oneshotted Shadi ,who was not only called a master of Prana but also created the Cube when near dead .... Meaning Shadi has far greater power than the cube itself . The cube itself has Higher-dimensional feats in dark side of dimensions.

Yu-Gi-Oh! Anime Debate:

On that subject, i believe since there is the existence of higher-realities compared to the multi-universe/multiverse of Yugioh, i believe even GX [Anime,Manga] , 5D's [Manga,Anime] , and especially ZEXAL [Manga] can scale to this in some way, shape or form . It just gets somewhat complicated and requires a bit of speculation [ Like i said before, it required rewording ] . Let me attempt explain below:

GX Anime/Manga [ Keep in mind the regular Yu-Gi-Oh! Timeline is 2-C, because GX, 5D's, and DM are considered separate timelines combined into 1 by the anime and the wikia page in it's "canon" section . Bonds Beyond Time is also in it's "canon" section, because it's a important plotpoint for 5D's . All Duel Monsters are either connected to the Spirit World or ties into Ancient Egypt. So scaling them to Duel Spirit shouldn't be that unbelievable. Besides, there is even a offical game that has you fight Shinato as a Duel Spirit , proving he definitely is a Duel Spirit , and in that game, in-story you have access to all 3 arcs [ GX , 5D's, and DM ] somewhat implying they all connect to him as well . So transcending the 2-C reality of the Anime would give similar results , but on a lower scale, than what i am saying above. Also remembr that every card Pegasus and Co made connected them to the Duel Monsters Spirit World [ It's literally stated in S1 and recently fouund the statement in the wikia ] ... Which would definitely include Shinato... As he is obviously a Duel Mosnters Card played by Noah . ] : The Gentle Darkness and Light of Destruction are heavily considered as the strongest Forces in GX w/o scaling to them [ At least in GX ... I am attempting to be conservative ... Because of Numeron Dragon and such . I'll get to ZEXAL later... But Duel Mosnters through 5D's is what i am trying to drill in, because if this isn't accepted... No point in continuing this ] .

This would at least scale to the Shinato from a Higher Plane Duel Spirit, b/c Yugi fought it in the anime [ Also Noah, who was effortlessly controling Shinato ] , also referencing it being an offical card and due to Pegasus indirectly revealing it to be a spirit because of the card game in question , and due to GX being directly connected to Duel Monsters , it should scale appropiately to the Gentle Darkness. Then we get some...interesting scaling choices. Judai gets much much stronger than base Gentle of Darkness by End of Season 4. .

5D's Anime/Manga : Shinato comes from , or at the very least is connected to the Duel Monsters Spirit World [ Due to Pegasus ] , which Ancient Fairy Dragon governs and is pretty much it's absolute ruler. Ancient Fairy Dragon should be far stronger than any Duel Monster Spirit connected to the Spirit World by Pegasus ( Except those such as Egyptian Gods , which required at least Shooting Star Dragon level to combat , and anything comparable or stronger ) . Luna is a signer for the dragon, and that dragon is 1/5th of the Crimson Dragon's power. we also should know hat a signer has full access to that Dragon's power, thus the Signers are directly comparable to such high-ends . Do you remember how powerful EoS4 Judai is ? Well... Here is where things get interesting. In the Bonds Beyond Time Movie [ Which is canon to the anime unless proven otherwise ... B/C Z-One references it in 5D's anime, and Paradox was offically seen in 5D's, which is literally shown to be connected to GX and DM ] ... An bloodlusted Stardust Dragon [ Malefic Stardust.. It's not a amp, just corrupting them . ] nearly kills EoS4 Judai with a single Shooting Sonic attack. He has a shield in front of him in the form of Neos, but still gets wrecked. Shooting Star Dragon and Shooting Quasar Drago are A LOT stronger than Base Stardust Dragon for reference . The Time Lords are a lot stronger than Shooting Star.

Duel Monsters : This one is easy if you accepted scaling from Shinato before as a Duel Monsters Spirit . Noah ( When fused with Shinato at the time ) was still weaker than the Yugi and Atem during the Battle Cit, as he not only resisted his power, but also counteracted it as soon as he got the chance . For reference, Noah had absolute control over the Virtual World and the Duel Monster Spirits he commanded [ Which includes Shinato ] . Post-Battle City is interesting.... Let's do this ! Yugi and Atem [ During BBT ] was literally stated as the most powerful duelist during the very start. This very movie is canon to 5D's... And trhis would scale especially due to the fact that Yusei had the full extent of the Crimson Dragon's power ... And even then Yugi and Atem were straight up called stronger. The scaling is strong in this one.

Higher plane likely refers to an afterlife rather than dimension in this context, as you quoted after all "the souls of a higher plane"

I don't 100% agree with this post, because of the following :

They differentiate the higher-planes from the Afterlife, by referring to the Afterlife. " a higher plane " would be rdundant if they can just use Afterflife here.

Secondly, Kaiba has to transcend the universe to reach Atem, who was in the afterlife.

Not really? Nearly every interpertation of an afterlife is generally described or used synonymously with "higher plane". Plus they did mention souls, pretty hard to argue against that.

Hold up, that's circular logic, we can only assume he transcended the universe to the afterlife if the afterlife was confirmed to be a higher dimension to begin with

Hmm...

ye?

What i am saying is that your logic, based on the very idea of what they [ Aigami an Co. ] were attempting to accomplish, is questionable. They want to reach a higher-plane that hasn't been reached before. The CUbe was literally stated to have the ability to access the Afterlife [ It' how Kaiba got there ] , and they reference the afterlife quite a few times . They don't want to reach the Afterlife, they seemingly want to find a new higher-plane. They wouldn't go to see Atem in the afterlife ( It's counter-productive . Aigami didn't want to see Atem b/c of obvious reasons.. He would have been defeated . He made sure that Atem and the other Items were locked away before making his move ) . Using this logic, the Afterlife being the higher-plane they referred to [ Even though i agree it implies in that one sentence one of the higher-planes is the afterlife ] is out.

I'm sure that travelling to the afterlife does not upgrade the stats of a characters.

For one it was to prove that the afterlife is transcendent compared to the Multiverse.... I'm pretty sure " Can destroy everything in the Yu-Gi-Oh! DM Universe, including a good number of timelines and a higher-planes " counts.

Remember that we don't use the dub unless it's the same in the japonese version for the quotes.

Both the sub and the dub in DsoD are completely identical. It didn't matter which one i chose.

"Even though i agree it implies in that one sentence one of the higher-planes is the afterlife"

In which case would imply higher plane = just a different realm, which basically has the same ramifications.

Well, in "Yu-Gi-Oh Transcend Game" it is said several times that "nether-world" transcends the world of the living having greater dimensions than the dimensions of the world of the living. It is said that to get at it you need to amplify your brain waves infinitely going through a dimensional ascension reaching a higher dimensional level. I can not explain it right, but the manga is explaining very well. I think it makes it clear that "nether-world" is a dimension superior to the world of the living.