Zero Musashi upgrade

[DaReaperMan]

All right, let's get right down to it. This thread. Let's ignore that it says 4-B because this was before nasuverse was tier 1.

it was rejected because of fate manipulation allowing Musashi to harm Ivan when she is in Zero mode.

Fate Manipulation doesn't work as a dura neg. Never has. Zero Musashi upscales from like everyone and nobody scales to her. That Unknown is on her profile for a reason.

What I'm proposing here is that we scale Second key Musashi to Living Ivan the Terrible.

 

[Regidian]

Here to see the arguments.
But one thing some people scale to her like living sasaki and summer arturia ruler

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Fate Manipulation doesn't work as a dura neg. Never has.

You could, actually. By simply grabbing the fate of someone who is dying and applying to someone else.

But I don't think that's how her ability works. Even so, that's not the only way fate hax could lead you to beat someone stronger. Depends very much on context.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Fate hax wouldn't jump Musashi from tier 6 to tier 1. And the context is Musashi doesn't see any other way and goes zero mode to harm Ivan, essentially creating a possibility to do so that she couldn't in base.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Fate hax wouldn't jump Musashi from tier 6 to tier 1. And the context is Musashi doesn't see any other way and goes zero mode to harm Ivan, essentially creating a possibility to do so that she couldn't in base.

Are the specifics of said possibility detailed/explained?

Because, couldn't she create the possibility that he is weaker?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Are the specifics of said possibility detailed/explained?

Because, couldn't she create the possibility that he is weaker?

Nope. Occam's Razor says that her AP in Zero mode is tier 1 instead of somehow reducing Ivan's stats to tier 6.

Here to see the arguments.
But one thing some people scale to her like living sasaki and summer arturia ruler

The former I don't think has any reason to and reason 2 and the ladder is a bit of an assumption.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Nope. Occam's Razor says that her AP in Zero mode is tier 1 instead of somehow reducing Ivan's stats to tier 6.

I mean, according to her profile, she reduces all possibilities into nothingness, but can also create new ones. Is it really that much of a stretch that she completely haxxed him? Specially if that's how her powers work (again, according to the profile).

Ironic enough, your conclusion goes against her entire ability going by the description. ovo

That her only possibility is to match his strength, instead of a million alternatives she could make happen, given that she straight up creates them.

But again, I don't know that much about Nasu, so I will leave it to the experts. However, if her fate hax is as potent as described, she 100% could beat someone stronger.

 

[DaReaperMan]

It's fate manipulation not something that negates durability, or raises her stats. It's really damn potent fate manipulation. But it's still fate manipulation.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

...and through negating fate, she could make him weaker by eliminating the events that made him so strong; she could outright made it not happen as she turns it to nothingness, immediately depower him. And that's just one possibility. Again, if it's as powerful as said in the profile, that she essentially makes whatever the hell she wants real and negates all other outcome, I'm inclined to agree to keep her as unknown. Because, well... The possibilities truly are endless. ovo

 

[DaReaperMan]

And yet the most simple one, and as such the one that would be correct due to Occam's Razor is that Zero Musashi just has tier 1 AP.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Given how her abilities work? Nah. The least speculative answer is precisely that she haxxed him into losing. How does manipulating fate make you tier 1, again? That's the same level of assumption that she instead made him weaker. "Unknown" is the best here.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Then we remove her tier 6 and make her unknown, she has 0 reason to scale to anyone but Ivan, and if that scaling is jeopardized then there really isn't a choice.

 

[WHYNAUT]

Fate: Ivan's tusk doesn't get cut > New fate: Ivan's tusk gets cut

Seems like one of the most straightforward examples of durability negation to me.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Shrugs

That I don't know. You should contact some Nasu experts.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Fate: Ivan's tusk doesn't get cut > New fate: Ivan's tusk gets cut

Seems like one of the most straightforward examples of durability negation to me.

Damn straight.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Shrugs

That I don't know. You should contact some Nasu experts.

Regi is one. And the scaling currently on her profile just... has no reason to exist. Being related by blood doesn't magically mean you scale to someone. And the other statement is just 6-C at best but then we realize that's a legend for Servant/base Musashi, and doesn't really apply to Zero Musashi.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Honestly I more lean towards Musashi having Tier 1 Fate hax that she uses to negate Ivans durability then her just matching him via AP.

 

[Regidian]

Nope. Occam's Razor says that her AP in Zero mode is tier 1 instead of somehow reducing Ivan's stats to tier 6.

The former I don't think has any reason to and reason 2 and the ladder is a bit of an assumption.

Living sasaki is equal to her and remain unscatted in their fight.

For ruler arturia, tenma musashi get a scalling from zero musashi, and ruler arturia>tenma musashi

 

[DaReaperMan]

Living sasaki is equal to her and remain unscatted in their fight.

For ruler arturia, tenma musashi get a scalling from zero musashi, and ruler arturia>tenma musashi

And what scaling does he have?

Being related by blood doesn't magically mean you scale to someone.

 

[Regidian]

And what scaling does he have?

Being related by blood doesn't magically mean you scale to someone.

Litteraly fight her equally? living sasaki just fight zero musashi in the end of shimousa.

Why do you mean related by blood? Tenma musashi is a part of musashi

 

[DaReaperMan]

Litteraly fight her equally? living sasaki just fight zero musashi in the end of shimousa.

Why do you mean related by blood? Tenma musashi is a part of musashi

Then he'd just scale to her

I wasn't aware Zero Musashi was a servant.

 

[Regidian]

Then he'd just scale to her

I wasn't aware Zero Musashi was a servant.

Musashi died in shimousa and became a servant, in lb1 and 5 she is a servant.

It's like impossible for her to have a sibling in first she is the only survivors of her world that have got erased

 

[DaReaperMan]

Huh. I thought she somehow lived via fate manipulation and her servant form was only for interludes and the like.

Then there is actually no reason to scale between the two. Tenma is a person who has never interacted with Zero Musashi I take it.

 

[Regidian]

For the fate hax thing, just a recall that before going to zero, she already tried to fate hax him (her primary ability is the ability to chose one of the infinite possibilities) and she wasn't able to see a way ti defeat him, so she just outright created one.

 

[Regidian]

Huh. I thought she somehow lived via fate manipulation and her servant form was only for interludes and the like.

Then there is actually no reason to scale between the two. Tenma is a person who has never interacted with Zero Musashi I take it.

Tenma musashi is servant musashi and servant musashi can go in zero... Like we tell she like go in zero in lb1 and lb5.


I don't understand what you try to tell

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah, which is why I'm now advocating for the removal of High 6-C.

Tenma musashi is servant musashi and servant musashi can go in zero... Like we tell she like go in zero in lb1 and lb5

Then why doesn't it just say "Berkerker Musashi" or something along those lines? And what is the scan that Tenma Musashi actually goes Zero to fight Bunnytoria instead of just beating her down the old fashioned way?

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

Well, this looks like a fate hax that is able to make it break through the durability of L1-C

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

And what is the scan that Tenma Musashi actually goes Zero to fight Bunnytoria instead of just beating her down the old fashioned way?

She actually goes to Zero...

 

[Regidian]

Yeah, which is why I'm now advocating for the removal of High 6-C.

Then why doesn't it just say "Berkerker Musashi" or something along those lines? And what is the scan that Tenma Musashi actually goes Zero to fight Bunnytoria instead of just beating her down the old fashioned way?

High 6-C came from scalling of summer arturia since the two fight together, artoria summer is 5 time stronger than servant anf stronger than boosted gawain. Normal musashi and tenma musashi can fight her.

I don't have it in english sorry but here it's tell that tenma musashi is just the other name of zero musashi

 

[DaReaperMan]

So I'm wrong, should have a little edit saying that Tenma Musashi is simply Zero Musashi by another name however.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

To give more context here is the scene in which she cut Ivan:
This was living Ivan that was fighting against Golem Keter Malkuth, her lightning needed the defense of Mash to be stopped and was unaffected even when various other servants worked together, the possibility that she nerfed him to become tier 6 with her fate hax isn't a option because he would then be easily defeated by the rest of servants.

One can say that because she use hax it shouldn't be reflected in the profile, but that would mean ignore the fact that it still do physical damage and can hurt tier 1 beings, like, Enuma Elish have a big space hax but we still give it tier 1 AP, the fact that she hurt something like Ivan with it have to be reflected better in the profile because currently her NP is rated as:

Island level+ with Rokudou Gorin – Kurikara Tenshou (Cut the trunk of Ivan the Terrible's Mammoth

So at the bare minimun that have to be changed to:

far higher with with Rokudou Gorin – Kurikara Tenshou (Cut the trunk of Ivan the Terrible's Mammoth

And about Ruler Artoria be superior to Tenma Musashi, let's remember that she aside from be strong in base also have big haxs like Rhongomyniad that affect the texture of the world and was agreed here before everything of LB 6 was out that Rhongo is tier 1 (though it was decided to wait until after LB 6 to make changes to her profile), and while Ruler Artoria isn't Goddess Artoria, the fact remain that Rhongo is just to fucking broken, so I don't see the problem with Ruler Artoria above Tenma Mushashi even though Tenma have tier 1 shit because Ruler Artoria have her own tier 1 shit.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

@Expectro2000xxx By that mean Rhongo AP would be straight up Low 1-C

Good thing we can restrict the ultra higher NP for fairer match

 

[Ballsdeep69]

I saw she also has this on her profile

Myoujingiri Muramasa allows her to sever the "Karma" and Causality of her targets.

Wouldn't this let her negate durability?

 

[DaReaperMan]

I saw she also has this on her profile

Wouldn't this let her negate durability?

It was never shown as a dura neg in Shimousa. It's actually more of an immortality negation.

 

[John985]

bump.