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Zeno's Paradox vs Zeno's Paradox (Gojo vs Kanae)

Celestial_Pegasus

VS Battles
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Looking at Gojo's profile and he isn't High 7-A anymore, and is the exact same tier as Kanae. Too good to pass up, i am just interested in how the 2 interact

Both at their strongest

Speed equalized

Who wins?

Satoru Gojo:
Ootori Kanae:
Inconclusive:
 
Hmm, I agree that that she can bypass Infinity fairly effectively, if she simply goes for a killing shot off the bat then Gojo probably can't do much.

It really depends on where she targets as Gojo's regen is pretty decent. An arrow through the brain would probably kill him immediately? Especially since he wouldn't expect it to hit him or sort of "teleport".

Gojo's saving grace is that he starts outside Kanae's range and can attack her, but (correct me if I'm wrong) I don't believe Gojo's the type to go for a sneak attack from outside his opponent's view under normal circumstances, so he may just confidently waltz into Kanae's range.
 
I forgot how these speed equalizations work, would she get an amp? Tsurugi get faster in the air, while are supersonic on the ground.

Not sure how her infinite reaction speed works here either....
 
Omg forget what I said Kanae stomps badly.

Combat speed would be equalized to Gojo's level, but the ratio of her combat speed to amps & reactions would remain the same.

So she retains infinite reactions lol.
 
Meaning with her broken eyesight Kanae sees Gojo as a literal statue since she perceives time as frozen, fires an arrow, then warps/teleports it into Gojo's head via moving it among any of infinite points she feels like.....

That combat to reaction speed ratio is broken

cry-oh-no.gif
 
I forgot how these speed equalizations work
Faster gets slower
Everything from the faster character gets as slow as the speed of the slower character
If slower character has higher speed statistics (reaction, attack speed, etc) they will stay as they are and not get equalized
 
Basically, Gojo's everything would becomes Superhuman, while the other hag idk the name would still have Infinite reaction speed, so yeah guess how that goes
 
So wait, when she fires a bullet, she can see the entire line of trajectory that the bullet would have? And then just teleport the shit?

If I'm understanding that right, it's basically the perfect counter and Gono has like nothing he can do against that.

Can't she just aim at his head and teleport the bullet into his brain lmfao.
 
Pretty much, she can see the infinite points that exist between her and her target, along with her projectile, and not lose sight of any of them for even a nanosecond, she can then basically warp her projectile to any of those points she feels like in defiance of the laws of physics, which makes it impossible to dodge, and it's basically a homing attack too, so even if you could dodge it will keep being reset to another of those points until it hits you.

It's an absurd ability, you could imagine my surprise when i saw this nonsense in a relatively tame verse, though there is hax like blackhole creation, mind control etc.
 
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Pretty much, she can see the infinite points that exist between her and her target, along with her projectile, and not lose sight of any of them for even a nanosecond, she can then basically warp her projectile to any of those points she feels like in defiance of the laws of physics, which makes it impossible to dodge.
Then she probably wins.

I was going to say she would stomp, but I don't think her reactions scale to how fast she can actually take aim and Gojo.

But the chance that Gojo doesn't let her at least aim at him is small. The moment she gets aim, she wins instantly.

So yeah maybe she does stomp.
 
With the absurd reaction speed, Kanae will probably never have a fair match, which is accurate to the story I guess, since she is suppose to one shot when she is serious.

Only reason the Mc didn't die instantly was cause she was conflicted between her whole identity, and her love for him.

Anyway this seems like a stomp.
 
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Get someone with Immortality/Regen and you get yourself a fair deal... Maybe
Actually yes, someone with a strong enough regen (as long isn't a too strong regen) could likely have a fair match with her as it would be battle between trying to kill the opponent before they kill her or she become unable to use more her shinogi.
 
Couldn’t make my own post on mobile but what the hell is going with JJK? Why is Gojo small town level but Sukuna is still High 7-A? And all the other JJK characters as well?
 
Pretty much, she can see the infinite points that exist between her and her target, along with her projectile, and not lose sight of any of them for even a nanosecond, she can then basically warp her projectile to any of those points she feels like in defiance of the laws of physics, which makes it impossible to dodge, and it's basically a homing attack too, so even if you could dodge it will keep being reset to another of those points until it hits you.

It's an absurd ability, you could imagine my surprise when i saw this nonsense in a relatively tame verse, though there is hax like blackhole creation, mind control etc.
This isn't going to bypass infinity. She's just using her ability to manifest those effects in normal space. Gojo's Infinity applies math manipulation to form an exotic space, so she would need feats that allow her to bypass his abstract manipulation, not just impact vanilla space itself. Should also be noted that Gojo's infinity has also worked in a realm that lacks temporality but has ghost that can move inside of it.
 
This isn't going to bypass infinity. She's just using her ability to manifest those effects in normal space. Gojo's Infinity applies math manipulation to form an exotic space, so she would need feats that allow her to bypass his abstract manipulation, not just impact vanilla space itself. Should also be noted that Gojo's infinity has also worked in a realm that lacks temporality but has ghost that can move inside of it.
? An exotic space? What? Dr. White, huh???

What does that even mean, man?

He doesn't have "abstract manipulation", whatever that means, he's just applying a mathematical concept onto space. Its the same thing she's doing. "Making Zeno's paradox real."

Additionally, the ability she has works by showing the trajectory of her bullet across infinite time and allowing her to teleport it to any point within that trajectory. So his Infinity is practically irrelevant anyway.

If an attack would ever reach Gojo, even across eternity, she can just instantly teleport it there in an infinitesimal amount of time.
 
Faster gets slower
Everything from the faster character gets as slow as the speed of the slower character
If slower character has higher speed statistics (reaction, attack speed, etc) they will stay as they are and not get equalized
they get decreased by the same multiplier.
say A has Mach 100 combat speed, B has Mach 200 combat speed and Mach 2000 perceptions
in a speed equal match, B has Mach 100 combat speed and Mach 1000 perceptions (because they get decreased by the same relative amount)

This isn't going to bypass infinity. She's just using her ability to manifest those effects in normal space. Gojo's Infinity applies math manipulation to form an exotic space, so she would need feats that allow her to bypass his abstract manipulation, not just impact vanilla space itself. Should also be noted that Gojo's infinity has also worked in a realm that lacks temporality but has ghost that can move inside of it.
gojo's profile only mentions math manip in regards to Blue and Red, infinity is just spatial manip
 
? An exotic space? What? Dr. White, huh???

What does that even mean, man?

He doesn't have "abstract manipulation", whatever that means, he's just applying a mathematical concept onto space. Its the same thing she's doing. "Making Zeno's paradox real."

Additionally, the ability she has works by showing the trajectory of her bullet across infinite time and allowing her to teleport it to any point within that trajectory. So his Infinity is practically irrelevant anyway.

If an attack would ever reach Gojo, even across eternity, she can just instantly teleport it there in an infinitesimal amount of time.
Pheonks, you know what this means. I already highlighted this last time we had this same exact discussion in your last thread. Ultima agreed on it being more exotic than just spatial manip, due to Gojo being able to apply abstract mathematical principles into reality. Aka making something like negative 1 appear in reality.

The exact exchange which was agreed upon for math manip
That doesn't make sense given our explanations though. For instance, when talking about his ability, he expressly discusses that his power allows him to create impossibilities such as negative 1 apples appearing in reality. For context, Gojo is explaining how he attracts things to him by creating a negative distance in space, which then must be filled by reality compensating for the blatant impossibility. Manifesting negative numbers in reality would inherently be something in the domain of the abstract, and not explained by simple spatial manipulation, as the notion of negative length, etc doesn't exist in our physical counterpart.
Ultima's response
Gojo literally being able to make shit like "-1 apples" actually materialize is better evidence for Infinity being more abstract than milquetoast Spacehax, yeah. Although I'd classify that as Mathematics Manipulation, not Conceptual Manipulation.
So someone being able to do stuff in regular space, has no bearing on Gojo's infinity space, which already has statements of being a separate infinite space with different topology and one which does not play by the rules of "finite dimensional space".

Let's look at which application applies:
  • Applied manipulation of mathematics: The ability to manipulate real phenomenons by changing the mathematical rules through which they are described.
Mathematical rules are abstract Pheonks, especially the ones discussed in relation to Gojo's power. So explain to me why you are asking me things like
"
What does that even mean, man?

He doesn't have "abstract manipulation", whatever that means, he's just applying a mathematical concept onto space. Its the same thing she's doing. "Making Zeno's paradox real.""

Because it sounds inherently nonsensical.
 
Ultima's response
Ultima's response agrees upon the abilities source being more abstract than just basic space manipulation, yes... however, I don't know when he agreed that the actual application and utilization of the ability creating some "exotic" space.

Like, the source of his spatial manipulation comes from his manipulation of mathematics, sure, but that doesn't inherently mean that everything he does with the spatial manipulation resulting from it requires some equally abstract manipulation of concepts to be interacted with.

Also, I believe that only applies to Red and Blue, as Setto said. Which is irrelevant to Infinity.

And going back to this fight, do you think that something moving at finite speed would never reach Gojo, even given an infinite amount of time?
 
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Ultima's response agrees upon the abilities source being more abstract than just basic space manipulation, yes... however, I don't know when he agreed that the actual application and utilization of the ability creating some "exotic" space.
Pheonks, the mechanism by which the powers operate, is what we were discussing. If Gojo can apply abstract qualities using an abstract modality of math, and his space is stated to have qualities unlike regular space, then that would make gojo's space "more exotic" than regular space. Which is why Ultima agreed with my sentiment that it could not solely be spatial manipulation. You also may be forgetting that Gojo's ability also inherently alter info type 2, which is something I didn't see on the opposing profile (correct me if I am wrong).
Like, the source of his spatial manipulation comes from his manipulation of mathematics, sure, but that doesn't inherently mean that everything he does with the spatial manipulation resulting from it requires some equally abstract manipulation of concepts to be interacted with.
This makes no sense to me, I will need you to expound.
And going back to this fight, do you think that something moving at finite speed would never reach Gojo, even given an infinite amount of time?
Correct, that's the whole point of Gojo's power. A converging series in mathematics involves taking an infinite set based on some function and determining if they will eventually "converge" or reach a single identifiable conclusion. Gojo's ability messes with this abstract quantity (as we cannot study the concept of infinity without abstraction) and doesn't let anything ever reach his position. This is why it's more than just simple spatial manip, it's messing with the "rules" that dictate existence.
 
This makes no sense to me, I will need you to expound.
It's like with Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3), for example. If someone were to use their type 3 conceptual manipulation to produce an infinite space or something similar, it would still be subject to interaction by even general spatial manipulation.

Or if someone were to use reality warping to warp space and create an infinite series, it wouldn't mean that the other character would also need reality warping to interact with the space they warp. Same if they were to use some basic form of law manipulation.

Basically, the source of a power doesn't inherently make the application of that power something that requires a similar source to be interacted with.

Especially when it's as limited as something like Gojo's mathematical manipulation.
Correct, that's the whole point of Gojo's power. A converging series in mathematics involves taking an infinite set based on some function and determining if they will eventually "converge" or reach a single identifiable conclusion. Gojo's ability messes with this abstract quantity (as we cannot study the concept of infinity without abstraction) and doesn't let anything ever reach his position. This is why it's more than just simple spatial manip, it's messing with the "rules" that dictate existence.
Gojo's power is explicitly based on Zeno's Paradox, though, which can be overcome with infinite time or infinite speed, since the set across his Infinity is infinite.

Like, the girl's ability literally allows her to see all of the infinite points between herself and Gojo and just teleport a bullet to any of them. An ability that manifests the same exact concept into reality.
 
It's like with Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3), for example. If someone were to use their type 3 conceptual manipulation to produce an infinite space or something similar, it would still be subject to interaction by even general spatial manipulation.
It wouldn't, that's specifically only the case with concept manip 3, not something like universal mathematical abstracts that actually impact reality.
Or if someone were to use reality warping to warp space and create an infinite series, it wouldn't mean that the other character would also need reality warping to interact with the space they warp. Same if they were to use some basic form of law manipulation.
Yes, you aren't understand how abilities and their foundations work. Gojo is not warping reality based on some nominal concept, he is literally changing the universal laws that describe reality. Also, JJK's reality is info type 2, so manipulating JJKs reality inherently implies more than just regular space-time manipulators. This is what you aren't understanding about his ability.
Basically, the source of a power doesn't inherently make the application of that power something that requires a similar source to be interacted with.
In this case it does. Gojo's space is not normal, there is math manipulation that is inherently changing it's elements and characteristics, which means it cannot be 1 to 1 treated as regular space, this is only exacerbated by info type 2, which is literally something you need to be able to interact with.

So you have two barriers, math manip which is acting A prior to describe how reality follows. Space that doesn't usually have this is of no consequence.

Than you actually have what the math is configuring, in a regular case, it's only space-time. In JJK, everything is information, which is then split into physical/spiritual, meaning you also need to be able to interact with fundamental information.
Especially when it's as limited as something like Gojo's mathematical manipulation.
It's not limited, not sure where you got this from.
Gojo's power is explicitly based on Zeno's Paradox, though, which can be overcome with infinite time or infinite speed, since the set across his Infinity is infinite.
It's not. That was used as a nominal description. It was then expounded on in the manga by Gojo in which he, multiple times, discusses the convergence, divergence, and abstract qualities.

Gege then went on to create a whole 8 page volume afterward explaining why his conception was wrong.

Gojo's power is not literally Zeno's paradox.
Like, the girl's ability literally allows her to see all of the infinite points between herself and Gojo and just teleport a bullet to any of them. An ability that manifests the same exact concept into reality.
Wouldn't matter because the moment she hits the barrier of infinity space, her power will be subjected to the math manipulation that is not typically manipulating space in her verse like Gojo's infinity, and also she's never done so to space which is info type 2.

You'll need to in depth address those while also supporting the notion you've changed your misunderstandings about gojo and JJK at large tbh.
 
It wouldn't, that's specifically only the case with concept manip 3, not something like universal mathematical abstracts that actually impact reality.
Where was it agreed to be a universal mathematical abstract that he's manipulating?

I don't believe Ultima agreed with what you're stretching this too.

Gojo is not warping reality based on some nominal concept, he is literally changing the universal laws that describe reality.
I'm not saying he's warping reality, I was only giving examples.

He isn't changing any universal laws. That's part of why Concept Manipulation was removed in the first place.

As far as I know, Ultima agreed that it was essentially him tweaking the properties of the "Infinity" that exists everywhere to create impossibilities. And that's essentially the limit as far as his mathematical manipulation goes.

This is why I addressed it as limited in my post. He doesn't have that much control over mathematics, to the point where you could consider it "universal" or anything of the such.

So, for me, I'd say the source here doesn't really affect the application. Especially considering, that again, "Infinity" isn't even what is accepted to be mathematical manipulation.

Even if there was some mathematical basis behind Infinity, I don't even see how it would effect this fight considering the opposition's ability is rooted in mathematics as well. With her being able to manifest an abstract mathematical idea in reality, but I digress.

Also, JJK's reality is info type 2, so manipulating JJKs reality inherently implies more than just regular space-time manipulators. This is what you aren't understanding about his ability.
Ignoring the fact that Information Manipulation in JJK is a bit sketch...

Isn't this just for being able to interact with the fundamental information in the body and soul specifically?

How does this relate to affecting the underlying information in space and such? Cause I don't ever recall someone altering the fundamental information of the universe to manifest their techniques.


It's not. That was used as a nominal description. It was then expounded on in the manga by Gojo in which he, multiple times, discusses the convergence, divergence, and abstract qualities.

Gege then went on to create a whole 8 page volume afterward explaining why his conception was wrong.

Gojo's power is not literally Zeno's paradox.
Okay, my bad for getting that incorrect, then.


Wouldn't matter because the moment she hits the barrier of infinity space, her power will be subjected to the math manipulation that is not typically manipulating space in her verse like Gojo's infinity, and also she's never done so to space which is info type 2.
Even if it's subjected to the mathematics manipulation you think he has, how exactly is this changing anything?

Her ability shows a trajectory through infinite space. I don't see how him affecting the math behind his infinity to create infinity distance would change that. It's still an infinite distance that she'd be able to see a trajectory through.

Could you explain what makes this different? Like, I get you think that the spatial manip =/= gojo's infinity. But even going with that line of logic, how does it make the ability she has incapable of viewing the infinite points between her and Gojo, cause I'm not understanding.

Hell, even if you are saying it's Information Type 2 space. What exactly does that entail? I'm not seeing how even going by your logic, that this prevents her from utilizing her ability.
 
Where was it agreed to be a universal mathematical abstract that he's manipulating?
Mathematical concepts are universal by nature pheonks. Do you think there are separate versions of math? Math is very clearly axiomatical.
I don't believe Ultima agreed with what you're stretching this too.
It's literally right there for you to read. Bringing negative numbers (and inherently abstract concept) into reality to physical effect, is too abstract to accomplish via just spatial manip alone.

In addition to JJK verse being type 2 info, a point you also keep not addressing.
He isn't changing any universal laws. That's part of why Concept Manipulation was removed in the first place.
He clearly is. If negative natural numbers don't exist in physical reality and only mentally as a concept, and Gojo is affecting the physical reality with this abstraction, it would very clearly be universal.
As far as I know, Ultima agreed that it was essentially him tweaking the properties of the "Infinity" that exists everywhere to create impossibilities. And that's essentially the limit as far as his mathematical manipulation goes.
That would be on your for misinterpreting then as we were blatantly talking about the mechanism by which Gojo effects reality.
This is why I addressed it as limited in my post. He doesn't have that much control over mathematics, to the point where you could consider it "universal" or anything of the such.
He does, he literally has control over the number lines, imaginary numbers, negative numbers, and uses this for the stereographic powers of Infinity.

Also, once again, math is inherently axiomatic and universal. The concept of addition, substraction, numbers, etc isn't changing on context.
Ignoring the fact that Information Manipulation in JJK is a bit sketch...
It's not.
Isn't this just for being able to interact with the fundamental information in the body and soul specifically?
No, all of Jujutsu kaisen's reality is fundamentally emptiness > information > spirit and matter.

So Gojo's ability to use math to effect reality would mean he is tweaking the fundamental info that makes up "space-time".
How does this relate to affecting the underlying information in space and such? Cause I don't ever recall someone altering the fundamental information of the universe to manifest their techniques.
I would posit it's because you haven't actually looked at JJKs power system and ontology collectively. That's literally the basis for cursed energy, hence the reality warping in the manga.
Okay, my bad for getting that incorrect, then.
No worries.
Even if it's subjected to the mathematics manipulation you think he has, how exactly is this changing anything?
Because interacting with vanilla space does not automatically grant someone the ability to interact with all space. You have to look at the characteristics and make up of the space. In JJK, mental and physical spaces are just information. Meaning that's two essences a regular spacetime user would not be able to interact with. Even if just keeping it to pure space, someone who has a vanilla space cutter, will not be able to say, cut through a Remanian space with special inner products. This is because the space plays by "different rules" compared to the space we know.

I haven't seen anything demonstrated which would allow the opponent here to not only interact with a space with two different fundamental essences, but also space whose inherent characteristics work under completely different rules then regular space.
Her ability shows a trajectory through infinite space. I don't see how him affecting the math behind his infinity to create infinity distance would change that. It's still an infinite distance that she'd be able to see a trajectory through.
Seeing the trajectory and having the range to manifest energy, doesn't allow her to bypass the active effects that the math manipulation is having. This goes hand in hand with my above points about the characteristics of a space.

The example I will use may date me, but think about OG pokemon games and the Team Rocket Warp spaces. Those tiles have different characteristics which enforce a certain action to happen when you step on them compared to regular space which you can just walk through. Gojo's "space" tweaks space in a similar manner so that things entering it our subject the mathematical manipulation directly impacting space. So when something appears in his "world" they will immediately be subject to Gojo's tweaking of convergence/divergence when in said area. So in my pokemon example, you will never reach Giovani's lair because you are stuck endlessly spinning on those tiles which will never lead to your target.
Hell, even if you are saying it's Information Type 2 space. What exactly does that entail? I'm not seeing how even going by your logic, that this prevents her from utilizing her ability.
Because there is a hierarchy of existence. Think of someone with 3-A power in the physical world, being unable to do jack in the spiritual world. Or someone who can manipulate IRL fire, not being able to manipulate magical or spiritual fire. If the space this person "can see and interact with infinite points in space" is just vanilla physical space, that is the space they can interact with. You can't just assume the space from that universe will equate to the space of other verses, and especially not in the JJK verse where reality is inherently empty and heavily influenced by abstractions.

With reality being based on information instead of physics, the mechanisms by which people control things like, space, time, etc, is completely different.
 
Just to remind you all that 3-A Gojo is quite far-fetched to me since having Infinity doesn’t mean he create Infinite-sized space because Infinity operates the same way convergent and divergent sequences do in mathematics. The Infinity is the convergence of an immeasurable series, anything that approaches the infinity slows down and never reaches the user because the technique takes the finite amount of space between the two subjects and divides it an infinite amount of times. According to the rules of mathematics they will be left with fractional units so infinitesimal it would become immeasurable to their eye. The Limitless brings this concept into reality, so anything that attempts to penetrate this infinitely divided space will slow down to the point of appearing to stop completely. Yh all in all he just makes a finite space and folds them near infinitely to the point where it completely stop or turn into tier 11 Space.

And we know that Gojo infinity works on Zeno paradox So it’s like 0.1, 0.09, 0.08, 0.07 -> ♾️ not 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 -> ♾️

In Gojo case the target is not moving so the difference between him and the target is 1(near/Gojo) -> 1^-♾️(far/Target) not ♾️(far/target) -> 1(near/Gojo) and in the case fast and slow part is like in a finite space where there is a human who is 1 meter away from an ant and you somehow reach the ant by less than a second in that finite space

The reason why it have temporality effects:
For example you and an Human-sized ant that runs 1.6m/s in a room size space then you divide that room size space along with the ant until the ant is like 0.01cm then you rush to kill the ant instantly without any time to run since the ant is so small as it run only 0.016m/s the reason why the ant run that slow because the speed of the ant match the size of the space

Well that’s all I got correct me if I’m wrong
 
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Just to remind you all that 3-A Gojo is quite far-fetched to me since having Infinity doesn’t mean he create Infinite-sized space because Infinity operates the same way convergent and divergent sequences do in mathematics. The Infinity is the convergence of an immeasurable series, anything that approaches the infinity slows down and never reaches the user because the technique takes the finite amount of space between the two subjects and divides it an infinite amount of times. According to the rules of mathematics they will be left with fractional units so infinitesimal it would become immeasurable to their eye. The Limitless brings this concept into reality, so anything that attempts to penetrate this infinitely divided space will slow down to the point of appearing to stop completely. Yh all in all he just makes a finite space and folds them near infinitely to the point where it completely stop or turn into tier 11 Space.

And we know that Gojo infinity works on Zeno paradox So it’s like 0.1, 0.09, 0.08, 0.07 -> ♾️ not 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 -> ♾️



Well that’s all I got correct me if I’m wrong
Gojo's never been 3-A

That's not how his power works.

The correction is above in this very thread, so feel free to read that or the thread regarding how his powers work.
 
Gojo's never been 3-A

That's not how his power works.

The correction is above in this very thread, so feel free to read that or the thread regarding how his powers work.
I don’t know how you think it’s not Zeno’s paradox since the Author himself stated that his infinity is based on the ‘Achilles and the Tortoise story’ in other word Zeno Paradox


Gege already stated it multiple time it work like 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16….1/♾️
 
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I don’t know how you think it’s not Zeno’s paradox since the Author himself stated that his infinity is based on the ‘Achilles and the Tortoise story’ in other word Zeno Paradox

Yeah, you clearly missed the part where this explanation was thrown away for being inaccurate and later replaced with his powers being compared to stereographic projection from Infinity (such as the case with a Reimann sphere), which would actually explain Gojo's math powers. This was then later expanded upon by Gege, his main editor, and actual mathematicians they brought in to lecture the fans on his ability.

Zeno's paradox is not Gojo's power. Gojo's power is "Infinity," with one subset of the powers being the ability to "slow" opponents via stopping their convergence with him as a target. That doesn't mean his power is literally the Achilles and the Tortoise, that was one conceptualization of looking at his power, not the actual basis. Zeno's Paradox doesn't explain red, blue, purple, etc... Which is why the explanation was canned.
 
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