Zamasu regen upgrade proposal.

[ChoursDropoff]

Hello this crt goal is quite straightforward I wanna upgrade Zamasu regeneration. And I think he qualifies for “high godly; history”.

High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, soul, and at least one other fundamental aspect of a character's existence. Such an aspect could be their place in the narrative, their history, their information (Type 2), their concept, et cetera.

It’s already been accepted in previous that Beerus hakai technique doesn’t work on Zamasu in both the Anime and Manga. Hence the Mid Godly rating on Zamasu profile, but it’s been shown that hakai can affect you on a temporal level.

Quick recap of the arc
Zamasu steals Goku’s body travels to Trunks timeline and recks havoc there. Trunks comes back to the past, to ask for assistance and Goku and Vegeta go the future. They fight loose come back the present find out the connection between Zamasu and Black and then Beerus erases him.

That last part of the synopsis is what I really want to focus in on. Because when Beerus goes back in time to erase Zamasu it should’ve affected the one in Goku blacks body. But as we all know he had a time ring thus his place in history was anchored and unchangable.

The important part is that we care about is that it’s blatantly shown and stated that gods can affect history without making alternate parallel worlds. Beerus even gets questioned by Trunks in regards to Zamasu and if he got erased, to which he confirmed that he erased every version of him (excluding the ones with time rings)



This shows that when a GoD erases someone they can make sure that there is no version of them in the timelines existence.

Some possible counter arguments.

It’s only time travel:

This one is the easiest to dismiss. It’s been shown that in dragon ball time travel doesn’t work on the principle of the past will affect the future. This is explained by many people like Jaco for example.



And Future Trunks.



So even if he went back in time and killed zamasu the traditional way. It would just result in the birth of a new timeline. Instead of deleting Black from the current one.

How did Zeno Erase Zamasu then?

Zeno’s erasure has been shown and established to be far beyond anything in the DB verse. As he’s the only one who scales above the super dragon balls that gave Zamasu his immortality.


Who would this affect?

Manga Zamasu: regen upgrade

Anime Zamasu: regen upgrade

Beerus: & GoD EE upgrade

Zeno: would get high godly regen; history
negation.
Possibly

Grand priest: his EE should be stronger than Hakai but weaker than Zeno’s

Fusion Zamasu: kinda iffy with the whole not fully immortal thing but he still should scale as she states he’s still immortal. So possibly high godly

Agree: @LuffyRuffy46307 @Killerdrone123@Ednaxel2 @TheGreatBanana @Cass5373

DisagreeDa3ggman, Dark_Soul20189 ,Zeinx1 @Spectra_Schiffer

Damage3245(no reason given)​

Maverick_Zero_X(agreed with omega)​

Nuetral:

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

It seems good

 

[Ednaxel2]

I agree with this of course

 

[Killerdrone123]

I agree with this

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Although the hakai was not performed on Goku Black because of his type 1 randomness

Even though the hakai had no effect on Black because of his ring, there were indeed events in the time stream, he was able to create a new separate timeline with another zamasu

I think this serves as further proof that hakai can affect another timeline.

 

[TheGreatBanana]

I agree with this.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't see how this would be a Regeneration feat. It looks more like a Resistance to Time Manipulation of sorts.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I don't see how this would be a Regeneration feat. It looks more like a Resistance to Time Manipulation of sorts.

But he already has resistance to changes in the past because of the ring, but even with that the hakai was able to create a totally different timeline with another zamasu

 

[ChoursDropoff]

I don't see how this would be a Regeneration feat. It looks more like a Resistance to Time Manipulation of sorts.

But he’s not resisting time hax the point being that every version of black for the timeline excluding the one with a time ring, got deleted. It’s not time hax beyond the fact you’re getting deleted from the timeline.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Future Trunks and Mai go back in time.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Future Trunks and Mai go back in time.

Literally irrelevant to the argument at hand.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Future Trunks and Mai go back in time.

Correct me if i am wrong How can this be a counter when the op is arguing that zamasu is the one being erased from every timeline remember you were the one who told me in the thread how can they return to the point where zamasu doesn't exist well this could be the answer to your question that every version of zamasu except those two got erased

 

[Omegabronic]

Quick recap of the arc
Zamasu steals Goku’s body travels to Trunks timeline and recks havoc there. Trunks comes back to the past, to ask for assistance and Goku and Vegeta go the future. They fight loose come back the present find out the connection between Zamasu and Black and then Beerus erases him.

That last part of the synopsis is what I really want to focus in on. Because when Beerus goes back in time to erase Zamasu it should’ve affected the one in Goku blacks body. But as we all know he had a time ring thus his place in history was anchored and unchangable.

The important part is that we care about is that it’s blatantly shown and stated that gods can affect history without making alternate parallel worlds. Beerus even gets questioned by Trunks in regards to Zamasu and if he got erased, to which he confirmed that he erased every version of him (excluding the ones with time rings)

Thay is not what is said at all, Beerus said that contrary to mortals, when a God kills another God, history doesn't split into another timeline, but i changes, the Erasure Beerus did wouldn't affect any Zamasu that isn't the future version of the Zamasu he killed, in this case Goku black himself, not every version in the multiverse

Which is quite litterally that wasn't what happened since another timeline where Zamasu still existed was very much still there, which should have been nuked given what you said, but it wasn't, so what you said couldn't be what happened

0:20
Also that zamssu still existed when mai and trunks go back before their world is erased, soooo no, the story quite literally says that not every versiom of zamasu across all timelines was erased

Even then, this wouldn't be history erasure, it would be EE aoe that covers all versions in the multiverse, so it wouldn' upgrade either the hakai nor zamasu's regen at all

This shows that when a GoD erases someone they can make sure that there is no version of them in the timelines existence.

No it doesn't,
1 it is only said this effect happens when a God kills another, not when hakai is used specifically, it wouldn't do that if the target is not a god for example
2 Beerus answers trunks concerns about when he tried to change the past and it didn't changed his future, which Beerus with saying that this was mortal logic and that gods killing another god has an effect in space time, aka he is saying by the context that him killing the past version of black will affect him contrary to what trunks past time travel stuff did

Some possible counter arguments.

It’s only time travel:

This one is the easiest to dismiss. It’s been shown that in dragon ball time travel doesn’t work on the principle of the past will affect the future. This is explained by many people like Jaco for example.



And Future Trunks.



So even if he went back in time and killed zamasu the traditional way. It would just result in the birth of a new timeline. Instead of deleting Black from the current one.

This is true for mortals, but beerus says otherwise for gods killing other gods, it is even questioned by trunks and that is what he answers, gods simply ignore that rule and actually change the future

Fusion Zamasu: kinda iffy with the whole not fully immortal thing but he still should scale as she states he’s still immortal. So possibly high godly

Nope, lost the mid godly for this reason, wouldn't scale to high godly for this reason as well

 

[Killerdrone123]

Thay is not what is said at all, Beerus said that contrary to mortals, when a God kills another God, history doesn't split into another timeline, but i changes, the Erasure Beerus did wouldn't affect any Zamasu that isn't the future version of the Zamasu he killed, in this case Goku black himself, not every version in the multiverse

Which is quite litterally that wasn't what happened since another timeline where Zamasu still existed was very much still there, which should have been nuked given what you said, but it wasn't, so what you said couldn't be what happened

0:20
Also that zamssu still existed when mai and trunks go back before their world is erased, soooo no, the story quite literally says that not every versiom of zamasu across all timelines was erased

Even then, this wouldn't be history erasure, it would be EE aoe that covers all versions in the multiverse, so it wouldn' upgrade either the hakai nor zamasu's regen at all

No it doesn't,
1 it is only said this effect happens when a God kills another, not when hakai is used specifically, it wouldn't do that if the target is not a god for example
2 Beerus answers trunks concerns about when he tried to change the past and it didn't changed his future, which Beerus with saying that this was mortal logic and that gods killing another god has an effect in space time, aka he is saying by the context that him killing the past version of black will affect him contrary to what trunks past time travel stuff did


This is true for mortals, but beerus says otherwise for gods killing other gods, it is even questioned by trunks and that is what he answers, gods simply ignore that rule and actually change the future


Nope, lost the mid godly for this reason, wouldn't scale to high godly for this reason as well

Wouldn't the timeline which zamasu exist would be created because of him using hakai on him meaning the timeline wasn't present when beerus Hakai'd zamasu it would have been created after beerus erased him

 

[Damage3245]

Wouldn't the timeline which zamasu exist would be created because of him using hakai on him meaning the timeline wasn't present when beerus Hakai'd zamasu it would have been created after beerus erased him

That doesn't make any sense. The timeline where future Zamasu existed had to exist before Beerus used Hakai on present Zamasu... because future Zamasu already existed.

 

[Killerdrone123]

That doesn't make any sense. The timeline where future Zamasu existed had to exist before Beerus used Hakai on present Zamasu... because future Zamasu already existed.

No the timeline was split after he erased zamasu not that it was existing before

 

[Omegabronic]

Wouldn't the timeline which zamasu exist would be created because of him using hakai on him meaning the timeline wasn't present when beerus Hakai'd zamasu it would have been created after beerus erased him

No, the OP is suggesting History eraure to Hakai, so the "when" the timeline is created is irrelevant as it would take effect in any and every moment in History

Also since Black is in the future, the timeline has to had retroactively existed else he wouldn't be there

 

[Killerdrone123]

Also omega first point is literally contradicted by the scene he showed because omega said god killing god doesn't split timeline but here we can clearly see that whis is explaining that the split happened

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Also omega first point is literally contradicted by the scene he showed because omega said god killing god doesn't split timeline but here we can clearly see that whis is explaining that the split happened

Lol

 

[Damage3245]

No the timeline was split after he erased zamasu not that it was existing before

Being split doesn't mean it didn't exist before.

 

[Killerdrone123]

No, the OP is suggesting History eraure to Hakai, so the "when" the timeline is created is irrelevant as it would take effect in any and every moment in History

Also since Black is in the future, the timeline has to had retroactively existed else he wouldn't be there

But the history wasn't even existing it was made after beerus erased him

 

[Omegabronic]

Also omega first point is literally contradicted by the scene he showed because omega said god killing god doesn't split timeline but here we can clearly see that whis is explaining that the split happened

Yeahb , because black had the time ring with him that protects him from changes in his own timeline, hence his acausality type 1 in his profile

Besides this doesn't change the point of what was actually said in the scene, never is it said that it nukes every version of the one erased across all timelines, you saying that what was said is supposedly contradicted doesn't help the point you are making, since the premise of the thread "hakai nukes your entire history across all timelines" is simply not wver said in any way in the scene at all

 

[Omegabronic]

But the history wasn't even existing it was made after beerus erased him

It doesn't matter, across all of history also includes moments that yet not happen

 

[Killerdrone123]

Yeahb , because black had the time ring with him that protects him from changes in his own timeline, hence his acausality type 1 in his profile

Besides this doesn't change the point of what was actually said in the scene, never is it said that it nukes every version of the one erased across all timelines, you saying that what was said is supposedly contradicted doesn't help the point you are making, since the premise of the thread "hakai nukes your entire history across all timelines" is simply not wver said in any way in the scene at all

Huh? I am talking about the zamasu split created like whis said when beerus erased zamasu he added one more time ring where zamasu wasn't erased meaning the split happened it has nothing to do with goku black.

 

[Zeinx1]

Disagree FRA

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Yeah no, I disagree.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I don't see how this would be a Regeneration feat. It looks more like a Resistance to Time Manipulation of sorts.

The idea is that hakai is confirmed to erase you from space-time, which would entail history erasure as you're being wiped from existence to the point where it's like you never existed. The main counter is that this is just existence erasure with multiversal range, but that would only refute history erasure if Beerus' destruction worked in a manner that erased Zamasu at the respective presents of the other timelines. In this case however, Zamasu explicitly required acausality from the time ring to survive, which confirms that hakai literally engages in classical history erasure that removes the "cause" which is your existence.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Being split doesn't mean it didn't exist before.

That's not exactly how it happens in Dragon Ball, parallel worlds are similar to the same parallel world, but with a new story, which suggests new alternative worlds,this means that it didn't exist before, but they are made entirely of different history, different space-time flow (according to Trunks)




So in Dragon Ball, the future where the Androids run rampant and the one where they're defeated are actually completely separate universes?

Prof. Futamase: That's right. If you successfully travelled to the past then attempted to return back to the point in time you started from, the universe you arrive to would not be your original one, but a parallel world where you had travelled to the past. You'd essentially be in a new universe with a different history.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm going to have to disagree with the thread.

The proposal doesn't make any sense.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I'm going to have to disagree with the thread.

The proposal doesn't make any sense.

Well, I understand you.

 

[Da3ggman]

Yeah, I'm afraid I'm gonna have to disagree with this one.

 

[Omegabronic]

Huh? I am talking about the zamasu split created like whis said when beerus erased zamasu he added one more time ring where zamasu wasn't erased meaning the split happened it has nothing to do with goku black.

.....black is zamasu dude, that is the big twist of the arc, the reason the timeline split was because Black's time ring protected him, thus the erasure of his past self didn't affected him, making the timeline split

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Thay is not what is said at all, Beerus said that contrary to mortals, when a God kills another God, history doesn't split into another timeline, but i changes, the Erasure Beerus did wouldn't affect any Zamasu that isn't the future version of the Zamasu he killed, in this case Goku black himself, not every version in the multiverse

Which is quite litterally that wasn't what happened since another timeline where Zamasu still existed was very much still there, which should have been nuked given what you said, but it wasn't, so what you said couldn't be what happened

0:20

I think you’re misunderstanding what Whis was saying there. Sorry it took a while but I had to grab the scans necessary. So I’ll try and explain to the best of my abilities. When Whis stated that beerus created a new time ring it was because what he did lead to black going back in time to kill Gawasu. And make Zamasu supreme Kai. It was a time loop

Also that zamssu still existed when mai and trunks go back before their world is erased, soooo no, the story quite literally says that not every versiom of zamasu across all timelines was erased

Because he has a time ring thus making him accausal.

Even then, this wouldn't be history erasure, it would be EE aoe that covers all versions in the multiverse, so it wouldn' upgrade either the hakai nor zamasu's regen at all

High godly history is just making sure your place in history is protected. But what beerus has demonstrated is that he can delete fron history it’s not just aoe. It’s literally Zamasu not losing his place in history.

No it doesn't,
1 it is only said this effect happens when a God kills another, not when hakai is used specifically, it wouldn't do that if the target is not a god for example

It’s more like people on the level of a god not that he has selective temporal erasure.

2 Beerus answers trunks concerns about when he tried to change the past and it didn't changed his future, which Beerus with saying that this was mortal logic and that gods killing another god has an effect in space time, aka he is saying by the context that him killing the past version of black will affect him contrary to what trunks past time travel stuff did

Yes exactly but as we all know black has a time ring so is unaffected by alternations to history. When beerus erased him he stopped black from being created in our current history. But that just lead to black going back to kill Gawasu himself. The manga makes this more clear by showing Zamasu timeline end there.

This is true for mortals, but beerus says otherwise for gods killing other gods, it is even questioned by trunks and that is what he answers, gods simply ignore that rule and actually change the future

Exactly whe was speaking in context to Zamasu but hakai clearly doesn’t exclusively effect gods

Nope, lost the mid godly for this reason, wouldn't scale to high godly for this reason as well

Hence why I said possibly high godly it’s the whole reason he has likely higher on his profile.

 

[Cass5373]

I agree, since it is taken that hakai fundamentally erases matter, soul, mind and one more existential aspect that is of space and time, and from what I see there is no tradition that Black and Zamazu from the future exist since they have the time rings that give them type 1 acausality.

 

[Killerdrone123]

.....black is zamasu dude, that is the big twist of the arc, the reason the timeline split was because Black's time ring protected him, thus the erasure of his past self didn't affected him, making the timeline split

Yeah and you have to prove that it was because of time ring that the new timeline got created because if the case was literally god killing god doesn't make new worlds nothing should have happened

 

[ChoursDropoff]

.....black is zamasu dude, that is the big twist of the arc, the reason the timeline split was because Black's time ring protected him, thus the erasure of his past self didn't affected him, making the timeline split

Took a while but I drop an explanation to your skepticism.

 

[Omegabronic]

The idea is that hakai is confirmed to erase you from space-time, which would entail history erasure as you're being wiped from existence to the point where it's like you never existed. The main counter is that this is just existence erasure with multiversal range, but that would only refute history erasure if Beerus' destruction worked in a manner that erased Zamasu at the respective presents of the other timelines. In this case however, Zamasu explicitly required acausality from the time ring to survive, which confirms that hakai literally engages in classical history erasure that removes the "cause" which is your existence.

None of what you show ever say that hakai does that, it specifies that it happens when a god kills another god

And even as i have explained, zamasu was black's past, so killing it would kill his future thus erasing black via cause and effect, normally the timeline would split, by as questioned by trunks and explained by beerus, that is ignored when a god kills another, which only didn't happen because the time ring protected black from his past getting changed

Acausality type 1 wouldn't matter to protect black as his present would also be destroyed by what you are saying, which wouldn't be enough for type 1 to protect against

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Being split doesn't mean it didn't exist before.

He wasn’t split through he was erased.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

I'm going to have to disagree with the thread.

The proposal doesn't make any sense.

What part doesn’t make sense I’ll try and explain it to the best of my abilities.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Disagree FRA

Why?